Dietary fads

[orange&white]

The difference between then and now that cats are living longer than they were in the 50's. You didn't see cats live to 17 years old, let alone 20. A lot of times they did die from disease found in the prey they caught.

Many pets did live long healthy lives.  The "average" longevity was lower because sometimes the cat became the prey...to coyotes, wolves or other carnivores. Plus medical advances in vaccines helped to all but wipe out distemper and other highly-contagious diseases which would control the cat population in overly-congested areas by wiping out all but those with the strongest, most resilient genes.  Outdoor animals face greater risks. 

I dare say that you'll not find much data to support any widespread early death from food back in the days before commercial pet food.

 

[abyeb]

You're either being disingenuous or missing the point of live prey versus raw meat.

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Two separate points... a). People who raw feed cats aren't giving them mice and b). Some farm cats can live long lives. Mice carry the nutrients cats need, because that is how cats are designed. There are other dangers to being outside, including catching disease from the mice they're eating, but the all-meat diet alone is not a reason for early death.

Cut me some slack here, okay? It's late now where I live.

 

[livelovepurr]

Mice do carry disease, but people who feed cats raw are not giving them mice they found in their backyard... they're giving them a variety of high-quality proteins. And farm cats can live pretty long, as Orange&White said...

I linked a study that showed a large number of commercial raw diets contained salmonella, Listeria, and e. Choli bacteria in those products. I'm waiting for that comment to process.

 

[abyeb]

I linked a study that showed a large number of commercial raw diets contained salmonella, Listeria, and e. Choli bacteria in those products. I'm waiting for that comment to process.

Commercial pet foods also get recalls for salmonella among other contaminants. Did you check out the link I posted earlier?

 

[orange&white]

I linked a study that showed a large number of commercial raw diets contained salmonella, Listeria, and e. Choli bacteria in those products. I'm waiting for that comment to process.

Cats' and dogs' digestive systems are built to process and pass through all those bacteria that would make us humans sick for a few days.  Besides, most of the dry pet kibble recalls are due to salmonella.  Salmonella recalls by kibble manufacturers usually arise when children (human) get sick with salmonella from handling/tasting the pet food.  The pet itself doesn't get sick from eating salmonella-infected kibble.  Wash your hands after feeding kibble and don't let your children touch it.  We raw feeders always wash our hands. 

 

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

Two separate points... a). People who raw feed cats aren't giving them mice and b). Some farm cats can live long lives. Mice carry the nutrients cats need, because that is how cats are designed. There are other dangers to being outside, including catching disease from the mice they're eating, but the all-meat diet alone is not a reason for early death.

Cut me some slack here, okay? It's late now where I live.

Sorry, Abyeb.  It still amazes me that animal nutritionists and zoologic dieticians in many zoological institutions require at least an MS in Zoology and an MS or a Ph,D or D. Phil in Dietetics inside a speciality - the reason they start work at six figures, with 9 - 11 years of collegiate sciences studies in their backgrounds - but that people have taken over their cats' nutrition by reading something on the internet.

I've said this before, but facultative anaerobic bacteria such as Listeria monocytogenes can be deadly to felines.

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[1CatOverTheLine]

 
Cats' and dogs' digestive systems are built to process and pass through all those bacteria that would make us humans sick for a few days. 

Absolutely false.  Here - in simplified terms:

http://www.petplace.com/article/cats/diseases-conditions-of-cats/infection/listeria-in-cats

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[livelovepurr]

Cats' and dogs' digestive systems are built to process and pass through all those bacteria that would make us humans sick for a few days.  Besides, most of the dry pet kibble recalls are due to salmonella.  Salmonella recalls by kibble manufacturers usually arise when children (human) get sick with salmonella from handling/tasting the pet food.  The pet itself doesn't get sick from eating salmonella-infected kibble.  Wash your hands after feeding kibble and don't let your children touch it.  We raw feeders always wash our hands.   

Here's an excerpt from the study:
"During Phase 1, a total of 480 samples of dry and semimoist dog and cat foods were analyzed. Only one sample (dry cat food) was confirmed positive for Salmonella. One sample (dry cat food) was confirmed positive for L. greyii. No positives were confirmed for L. monocytogenes or E. coli O157:H7.

During Phase 2, 576 samples including raw dog and cat foods, exotic animal food, and jerky-type treats were analyzed. These products were chosen for the second phase to widen the scope of the investigation beyond the routine animal food types which were tested in the past and during Phase 1. A total of 15 samples (8%) were confirmed positive for Salmonella, all positives were found in raw food products. A total of 32 samples (16%) were confirmed positive for L. monocytogenes, again, all in raw food products. Additionally, 34 samples (14%) were confirmed positive for other Listeria species in raw food products and jerky-type treats. In Phase 2, no E. coli O157:H7 was isolated from any products, but a total of 10 samples were confirmed positive for non-O157 STECs. Table 1 provides results of samples analyzed during Phase 2."

 

[livelovepurr]

"Eleven laboratories collaborated to determine the periodic prevalence of Salmonella in a population of dogs and cats in the USA visiting veterinary clinics. Fecal samples (2965) solicited from 11 geographically dispersed veterinary testing laboratories were collected in 36 states between January 2012 and April 2014 and tested using a harmonized method. The overall study prevalence of Salmonella in cats (3 of 542) was

 

[abyeb]

Sorry, Abyeb.  It still amazes me that animal nutritionists and zoologic dieticians in many zoological institutions require at least an MS in Zoology and an MS or a Ph,D or D. Phil in Dietetics inside a speciality - the reason they start work at six figures, with 9 - 11 years of collegiate sciences studies in their backgrounds - but that people have taken over their cats' nutrition by reading something on the internet.

I've said this before, but facultative anaerobic bacteria such as Listeria monocytogenes can be deadly to felines.

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I am not an expert on feline nutrition, nor do I claim to be, however, I simply wish to express that, in an ideal world, an all-meat diet would be beneficial to cats, however, raw does contain bacteria, as you mentioned, so nothing is ideal. In the end, everyone, in collaboration with their vet, can choose the diet best for their feline. This is how I have chosen Charlie's food, and will continue to do so.

 

[livelovepurr]

"Many dogs and cats are asymptomatic carriers of salmonellae. Clinical disease is uncommon, but when it is seen, it is often associated with hospitalization, another infection or debilitating condition in adults, or exposure to large numbers of the bacteria in puppies and kittens, in which enteritis may be common."

From Merck Vet Manual. Their bodies do not digest the bacteria. It makes them a reservoir.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

I am not an expert on feline nutrition, nor do I claim to be, however, I simply wish to express that, in an ideal world, an all-meat diet would be beneficial to cats,

I disagree.  Without supplementation and proper amino acids balance - and with nothing to aid intestinal motility - a diet consisting of raw meat and nothing more is detrimental - not beneficial - to cats.

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[kittens mom]

Yes, fruits, vegetables, and grains are just empty calories in cat food that felines don't need. Metabolically, domestic cats are the same as their wild cousins. You'll never see a Bobcat climbing a tree to get an apple... because they don't need fruit.

When we had feral cats I would often offer scraps and without fail they would go for the plain green vegetables , usually tossed for the chickens in the gang. They may indeed consume small quantifies of some plants for nutrition. Note there were always meat scraps offered to the cats.

 

[orange&white]

 
Absolutely false.  Here - in simplified terms:

http://www.petplace.com/article/cats/diseases-conditions-of-cats/infection/listeria-in-cats

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Thank you for the link.  Excerpt from the article:  "Infection with Listeria, commonly called Listeriosis, can cause severe infection in pregnant women, elderly people and humans with suppressed immune systems. Healthy people and cats are rarely infected."

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The general vitality I see in my pets on raw makes the benefits outweigh the risks.

 

[abyeb]

I disagree.  Without supplementation and proper amino acids balance - and with nothing to aid intestinal motility - a diet consisting of raw meat and nothing more is detrimental - not beneficial - to cats.

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Cats in the wild do eat the fur of the animal to assist with intestinal motility. If we were to try to get a cat's diet as natural as possible, perhaps meat supplemented with cat grass would be a possibility. Cats do need taurine, so taurine supplements would also be needed. This is why a quality, commercial canned food could be very good for cats. Raw feeding would be hard to get that ideal balance, which is why I don't do it. However, I do have respect for those who can find a way to feed their cat a healthy, raw diet with all needed supplements.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

 
Thank you for the link.  Excerpt from the article:  "Infection with Listeria, commonly called Listeriosis, can cause severe infection in pregnant women, elderly people and humans with suppressed immune systems. Healthy people and cats are rarely infected."

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The general vitality I see in my pets on raw makes the benefits outweigh the risks.

Read the entire article.  "Healthy cats," in that context did not include those fed a diet of raw meat.

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[orange&white]

 
Read the entire article.  "Healthy cats," in that context did not include those fed a diet of raw meat.

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 People are not feeding their cats a raw diet to make them unhealthy.  That would be silly.  Everyone chooses a diet they believe produces the healthiest possible pet, whether that's kibble, canned, raw, or some combination.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

Cats in the wild do eat the fur of the animal to assist with intestinal motility. If we were to try to get a cat's diet as natural as possible, perhaps meat supplemented with cat grass would be a possibility. Cats do need taurine, so taurine supplements would also be needed. This is why a quality, commercial canned food could be very good for cats. Raw feeding would be hard to get that ideal balance, which is why I don't do it. However, I do have respect for those who can find a way to feed their cat a healthy, raw diet with all needed supplements.

I imagine you've read the U.C. Davis study on Taurine deficiency in cats fed raw rabbit.  What's important there is that some Taurine is broken down and rendered useless, despite the initial level at feeding being more than 100% of the requirement:

http://felineinstincts.com/taurine-deficiency-in-raw-rabbit/

Vitamin E levels were also diminished, and the Cheetah Study linked to in this forum confirmed that water soluble Vitamin B (i.e. Thiamine) deficiency, as well as specific amino acid deficiencies were widespread in non-supplemented raw diets, and the results were clear within a 30 day period.

 

[IndyJones]

I guess nobody knows what animal is used in animal/meat byproduct?

Seriously some of the stuff is frightening. I'm reading things like euthanized cats being used for this.

Am I making my cat a cannibal by feeding them this?

 

[livelovepurr]

I guess nobody knows what animal is used in animal/meat byproduct?

Seriously some of the stuff is frightening. I'm reading things like euthanized cats being used for this.

Am I making my cat a cannibal by feeding them this?

No, they do NOT put euthanized animals into pet food. Euthasol is a poison and it is required, by law, for animals that are chemically euthanized to be buried at a special depth in the ground, where they cannot be dug up by wildlife, or to be incinerated. If you read the link I left on sustainability through pet food, you will see that the by products in pet foods are those from our own food, the parts we don't eat. Unwanted parts from cattle, pork, poultry, lamb, goat, horse, etc. I don't know where you read your information, but that seriously makes me question any information everybody else tries to spew. You can find just about anything on the internet, whether it's true or not. It is your responsibility to protect yourself from false information by gaining insight only from reliable websites. Note that even websites ending in .org or .net cannot always be trusted because anybody can purchase those domains. Google Scholars is an excellent resource for searching for credible information, DVM 360, and Merck Vet Manuals are trusted sites for veterinary medicine.