Crystals & Diet Questions

[ShelbyLynn]

I’ve been doing non stop research on how best to treat my cat and I’m overwhelmed with information. I need some help from some of you who may have already been through this. I’ve searched the forum here for hours and found many many people who have gone through this so I pray someone will know what to say.

So I have a two year old female (spayed). Took her to the vet last Friday because she was urinating outside of the litter box. She is still
Using the box mind, just urinating in random spots. Dog bed. Hallway door. Chair in living room. Couch. Not daily. But more than once is too frequent.

Anyway, took her to the vet. She has done this before over a year ago. She actually had bloody urine. She was diagnosed with crystals. I had her on a dry kibble diet and was told to switch her immediately to a wet food only diet. It should also be noted that this cat doesn’t drink water. She loved it when she was a kitten, but not anymore. So I add water to her food.
So this happens yet again. Not a bad but still. The vet tells me to put her on science diet cd stress. I am refusing. I don’t see the point and the price is stupid. She wants me to put her on it for a month. Why? Why just a month? What will that solve that something else won’t?

So I began my research. I’ve found several things that I want to ask you about. And before I begin, I’ll let you know her i did ask the vet about all of this. She is still digging in and telling me to feed the science diet and “then we will talk about alternate care”.

First, I found that grain free diets aren’t really good for cats. I’ve been feeding her weruva wet food which is grain free. From what I have read, cats need grains for proper UT health. Particularly wheat germ. Is this true? I will point out that I NEVER feed her anything with fish in it. It’s always some sort of poultry. Sometimes with beef. Sometimes with pumpkin. I religiously used catinfo.org for my carb levels and kept it well below 10.

Next, I found out that her favorite (I mean she flips the f out over these) treats, temptations chicken flavor with hairball control, causes all sorts of urinary nightmares. The vet agreed that i should stop feeding them immediately. Can anyone clarify the issue?

Lastly, I found a product to acidity her urine. Dl-methionine. It seems it’s available in low dose otc but more effective pure doses are prescription only. I’m hesitant on using anything else considering they all contain high amounts of ascorbic acid which causes stones to form. Don’t want that! Has anyone used this before? Thoughts?

In case anyone is wondering, the urine test showed a pH of 7.0. She has crystals. She had a very small growth form a few days after the culture was taken. She has been on oral antibiotics since seeing the vet. She will finish those.

So I ordered a few things. Freeze dried cat treats to replace the temptations. A liquid called Tinkle Tonic that has good reviews everywhere I looked. I think this will help her discomfort a lot and help her to get over this episode. I’m hopeful this will be something to help discourage future crystals.

Also of note, the vet did say that the problems may be stress related. She also has herpes in her eye that flares up from time to time. I know that that can be proof of stress since stress seems to cause them to appear. I’ve gotten her started on some lysine supplements to help.

I know this is a lot. I’m overwhelmed. I hope someone can help. Thanks in advance.

 

[sweetblackpaws]

Put her on the Rx food. Yes, one month is enough to change her PH which will help in creating an environment that reduces crystal formation. I have a male that will be on on Rx food the rest of his life due to an emergency blockage that nearly killed him. He has since had surgery and is on Rx food (I alternate between Royal Canin and C/D). I know it is costly. If you can't afford it, tell the vet, or switch to the best wet food you can afford. Pate formulas are best.

 

[duckpond]

I think feed the food the vet wants, for a month, as the previous poster said this may help with the Ph of her urine? Wet would definitely be best. I would not give her supplements to change the ph of her urine without the vets ok.

Has she been eating all wet foods? Did she actually have stones, or was it crystals and an infection, or cystitis?
Stress can definitely cause many problems for our cats.

I would stop those treats, maybe give some freeze dried chicken like Pure bites?

I hope she is better soon.

 

[solomonar]

I am also digging on stones formation - for scientific curiosity.

I found very little scientific info. So at this stage the only things I know for sure are:
- no other food that meal-only is necessary for the cat methabolism. But, by meal we shall understand corp of an animal! Otherwise, trusted brands is the alternative - wether wet or dry - in my opinion does not matter, since the water balance is electrolyte related and not volume related (from what I know and this is a long and very complicate discussion).
- taurine is absolutely requested- if no corp is given, then it shall be added in controlled dose)
- water shall be available all time and of certain purity
- cat is a predator- cat must hunt!
- vet shall treat diseases in time

Stone formation depends on a variety of factors, so changing pH to treat may be a way, but I will not think to this as an universal or miracle one-day cure. In humans, similar medicines shall be taken for some 40 days (as far as I know) and may trigger other methabolic changes. In my opinion, one may only follow the advise of the vet on the doses and duration of changing pH.

Concerning food-brands- there is a lot of marketing. Some companies have close relations with vets. While other (especially small or medium) companies could be much more honest. A never-ending story.

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Myself I would never ever give medicines to a cat outside vet recommendation. No matter how "over the counter" are they classified.

 

[solomonar]

Lets separate digestibility of carbohydrates from requirement of carbohydrates.

As far as digestibility is concerned, it appears like cat can digest at least some quantities (See: Morris, Trudell and Pencovic, 2007- Carbohydrate digestion by the domestic cat (Felis catus), 2007 - https://doi.org/10.1079/BJN19770040)).


I also came across this interesting article:

Esther A. Plantinga, Guido Bosch and Wouter H. Hendriks - Estimation of the dietary nutrient profile of free-roaming feral cats: possible implications for nutrition of domestic cats - British Journal of Nutrition (2011), 106, S35–S48 doi:10.1017/S0007114511002285:

"The starch content of the NFE fraction is low".

The article quotes that plant material is present in feral cat diet.

But- From the article, in my judgment, one cannot draw the conclusion that starch is required in the cat diet, such a conclusion is not logical, because plant material can be present by accident in the stomach (e.g. by ingested meat covered by some leaves or similar). Neither can someone state that because of starch being present in the stomach, starch is inoffensive.

The only thing that one can say after reading the article is that cats do not look for starch or plant material. That is, starch is not mandatory in the diet.

[ Off Topic - the article states a nice and simple explanation about the taurine requirement :
"Two key enzymes in the pathway for taurine synthesis, namely cysteine dioxygenase and cysteinesulfinic acid decarboxylase, show low activities, thereby greatly reducing the endogenous synthesis of taurine and making this sulfonic amino acid an essential dietary nutrient for cats"

That is a brilliant explanation, in my view! ]

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As a matter of fact, there are web-sites that are tricky in terms of reliability of the statements.


I would be very reluctant in trusting methionine supplement and other things like this, unless a professional reccomands. By "professional" I mean a vet.

+++

Like in the case of human diet, it is very easy to make money by using a clever wording and misleading phrases.

I can make a fortune if I sell Petroselinum crispum extract by de-ionized water, sensor controlled -temperature, that is proven effective for 2000 years. It is luteolin and apigenin -reach extract, bearing a smooth urethotonic effect. Very promising, right? But is nothing else than... parsley tea. :-)).

 

[ShelbyLynn]

I think feed the food the vet wants, for a month, as the previous poster said this may help with the Ph of her urine? Wet would definitely be best. I would not give her supplements to change the ph of her urine without the vets ok.

Has she been eating all wet foods? Did she actually have stones, or was it crystals and an infection, or cystitis?
Stress can definitely cause many problems for our cats.

I would stop those treats, maybe give some freeze dried chicken like Pure bites?

I hope she is better soon.

She has been on a wet food diet only for over a year now. Ever since the first episode. Weruva brand to be exact. And she has no stones, just struvite crystals.

 

[sweetblackpaws]

That is what my boy had. Vet said he was a "crystal-making machine". If you can afford the Rx food, I really think that would be best. The stuff really does work or I wouldn't buy it. But I understand maybe you can't afford it. Then buy a non-prescription food that is specially formulated for her issue, like Purine One Urinary Health or Focus for urinary tract issues. Chewy.com has free, expedited shipping for orders over $ 49.00 but maybe your local pet store has some.

 

[ShelbyLynn]

That is what my boy had. Vet said he was a "crystal-making machine". If you can afford the Rx food, I really think that would be best. The stuff really does work or I wouldn't buy it. But I understand maybe you can't afford it. Then buy a non-prescription food that is specially formulated for her issue, like Purine One Urinary Health or Focus for urinary tract issues. Chewy.com has free, expedited shipping for orders over $ 49.00 but maybe your local pet store has some.

Please stop making it sound like I’m poor and can’t afford to take care of my cat. I do not want to feed it to her because it’s unregulated junk. It’s high in carbs and will only make her a fat cat. There is no way that the answer to her problems is a $150 per month diet of junk for the rest of her life. That’s stupid. And furthermore, what’s the point of feeding it to her for a month? What does that solve long term? Nothing. I feel like pet owners have been spoon fed lies about what we should feed our animals and people just buy it and don’t ask questions. It doesn’t make any sense.

 

[pushylady]

I was hesitant about using the Hills c/d too, but it's what actually helped my cat get over his chronic bouts of crystals. We had him on it strictly for a certain amount of time (over a year) and it cleared up his condition. Then we switched to wet foods we were happier with.
It may seem "stupid" to you, and I get your suspicions about the RX food, but people here are just trying to help and offer suggestions based on their own experiences.
There is also a sub-forum here for people who actually make their own cat food. You may find it useful if you want to go that route. It would give you more control over what your cat eats. I think the key though is to get her urine to a consistent level of acidity so the crystals won't recur, and those RX diets have been proven to do that.

 

[PushPurrCatPaws]

I’ve been doing non stop research on how best to treat my cat and I’m overwhelmed with information. I need some help from some of you who may have already been through this. I’ve searched the forum here for hours and found many many people who have gone through this so I pray someone will know what to say.

So I have a two year old female (spayed). Took her to the vet last Friday because she was urinating outside of the litter box. ...

Anyway, took her to the vet. She has done this before over a year ago. She actually had bloody urine. She was diagnosed with crystals. I had her on a dry kibble diet and was told to switch her immediately to a wet food only diet. It should also be noted that this cat doesn’t drink water. She loved it when she was a kitten, but not anymore. So I add water to her food.
...

I think changing to wet food (versus dry food) and making sure the cat has lots of avenues to drinking water are two very good things. If you've searched the site for hours and found many threads, I think this may not be new reading for you. Regarding grains, I personally prefer my cat eating grain-free wet food.

 

[duckpond]

She has been on a wet food diet only for over a year now. Ever since the first episode. Weruva brand to be exact. And she has no stones, just struvite crystals.

i have never had a cat with crystals, and hope i never do. I am sorry you guys are having this problem. Weruva is a good food, i feed it to my cats as well. Another food i feed quite a bit of is the Tiki cat after dark, my cats love the chicken and the chicken and beef. Some people complain that it is more broth than food, so you have to feed a bit more, or supplement with a different food, which i do. But i like all that liquid in the Tiki after dark, and so do my cats they slurp it up first thing. so i am happy that they are getting the liquids, then i feed a higher calorie wet food, or some of Dr. Elseys chicken dry food, which may not be a good choice for your girl, being as it is dry.

I am a big fan of Tiki after dark when you are trying to get more liquids in a cat. I order from chewy, but i think petco carries it now as well if you have one close by.

I dont know about the prescription foods, but i know a lot of people said they had good luck with it, at least for short term. I dont like the ingredients either, but i hate to go against what the vet says, and what other members have said that it did work for their cats. Maybe use the prescription food for a month like the vet wants, then try some Tiki?

Wishing you guys the best of luck!

 

[jstie]

Have been through this with my Basil (boy cat with struvite crystals) and Pawnee (NOT crystals). From a lot of investigation, consultation with my vets, reading, etc., Basil is restricted to C/D for life. He has blocked once, and if he blocks again, we are looking at surgery. Since he has been on the C/D, he has been healthy for some years now, and there is reliable research to show that the Rx foods (crappy though they are) do in fact reduce crystals and pH. He has NOT gotten fat - I just reduced the amount I feed him a bit and he's fine. But I'm not taking chances. Females rarely block, so I'd be willing to experiment more. The OTC urinary brands are not subject to rigorous research, and the labeling of "urinary support / health" can mean as little as they grind up a few cranberries in it - it's mostly marketing with no actual research behind it. My Pawnee flat out refused to even EAT any of the C/D or S/O in any flavor, so I've had to work out something else with her, but since she doesn't have crystals, it's a different situation. I would probably give you cat the Rx food for the month, and use the time to work out another plan with your vet. Good luck!

 

[orange&white]

The "active ingredient" in the prescription food is dl-methionine, which your independent research already showed will dissolve urinary crystals. That's why the prescription food helps. Your research also was thorough enough to notice that high levels of dl-methionine over a longer period of time can form calcium stones (just the opposite problem of struvite). That's why one-month of the prescription food may be a good solution.

This article may help you pull some of the lose ends of your research together: Tales from the Urinary Trenches: CatNutrition's School of Hard Knocks

 

[FakeGourmet]

Please stop making it sound like I’m poor and can’t afford to take care of my cat. I do not want to feed it to her because it’s unregulated junk. It’s high in carbs and will only make her a fat cat. There is no way that the answer to her problems is a $150 per month diet of junk for the rest of her life. That’s stupid. And furthermore, what’s the point of feeding it to her for a month? What does that solve long term? Nothing. I feel like pet owners have been spoon fed lies about what we should feed our animals and people just buy it and don’t ask questions. It doesn’t make any sense.

The point of feeding something special for a month is to prevent a $1000 surgery. Once the pH is lower, then you can work on a long term solution. For my cats, a diet of roughly half Iams Mature Hairball and Friskies canned (turkey mostly) has resolved urinary tract problems as well as calcium stones in kidneys (These aren't the only urinary problems cats get, but you have a girl cat). These cats are all related. Our water might be different from yours (very hard), so the same solutions may not apply. Your cat doesn't drink water. THAT is a big issue. My cats drink plenty of water (have 2 fountains, plus snow cones or ice cubes in a bowl).

Cats get fat because you overfeed them. Look on the bag and feed your cat the amount for the cat's weight. Won't get fat. It's much harder in a multipet household with family members who won't follow the plan, but it can be done.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of what you find on the internet is old, out of date, and inaccurate. FWIW, some manufacturers added some ingredient to prevent the crystals in cats. Unfortunately, that change appears to be what are causing an increase in kidney stones in cats.