Contemplating Raw/homemade- I have Questions

[pisces7386]

Howdy! We are thinking about switching our cats to a raw/homemade diet because at least one of the three has issues with chicken and all three have stinky and  occasional loose stool issues. We have a few questions-

Can we just grinding some rabbit or venison without all the added vitamins and minerals and bone to try it? Would this taste/smell very different from a full recipe? I want to make sure they are willing before I commit the money, time and resources. 

I see that most recipes are for chicken- can these recipes be used interchangeable with other meats ( venison/beef) so long as I use a boneless recipe and boneless meat? If so, I know venison is very lean and doesn't have skin to add in- how would I adjust for that?

I see that most people freeze in containers. Would meal-sized meatballs work too? It seems like they would be easy to store frozen in bags and really easy to defrost... and then I wouldn't have to measure food at each meal!

Is canned food chicken different from real chicken? I know this seems like a silly question but, I ask this because of the one cat's chicken trouble. I am hoping that there is a difference and I can make homemade chicken or at least use chicken bits ( which are easier to get locally) in these homemade foods for her. 

How much do you feed them- is it the same guidelines for canned; 3/4 oz  to 1 oz per lb per day? Our anti-chicken cat would eat us out of house and home if we let her so we measure her food carefully. 

 

[ritz]

Welcome to the Raw Side.
I'll answer your questions briefly to the best of my knowledge, and then direct you to good sites and articles.
First, you could just "accidentally" drop some raw meat on the kitchen floor and see if your cats eat it. That would give you some indication on how they would adapt to raw feeding.
Yes, you can grind some rabbit or venison without adding the vitamins and minerals as long as the amount you feed is 15% or less of their daily/weekly intake of food. Any more than that, and you need to add bone and feed the appropriate amounts of liver and secreting organs, like kidney. Some raw feeders (including myself) do not add vitamins or minerals, though I do supplement with Krill oil and probiotics.
Yes, you can substitute other meats besides chicken regardless of which form of Raw feeding you choose--frankenprey/prey model; commercial raw; whole prey. Or home-cooked food.
Meal size meatballs would work but you know you MUST weigh every meatball, no eye-balling allowed, at least at first. I find plastic containers or small plastic bags easier to deal with.
I fed prey model raw, which includes the appropriate amount of liver and kidney. I buy a bunch of liver and kidney and portion it out into ice cube trays, which hold roughly one ounce, and then freeze.
If you mean canned meat that humans use, for example, to make chicken salad: read the ingredients. Besides chicken, those products often contain added ingredients, including lots of salt, which is a no-no for cats. Cooking the canned meat at such a high temperature I would think would destroy a lot of the nutrients.
Now, you mentioned that your cat(s) seems to have an issue with chicken. It would be interesting to see if she reacted to organic chicken breasts, or chicken breasts where grain was not part of the chicken's diet. Some cats are allergic to what the chicken eats, not the chicken itself.
Regarding how much to feed, some raw feeders find their cats are more satisfied with less raw food because it is more bio-available. Ritz is a big girl, weighing around 10.5 to 11 pounds. I feed 3.4 oz of meat, and the appropriate amounts of kidney/liver/bone of approximately .6 oz.
When I first started feeding raw, I went with the commercial raw option so I could do some more research. I found it wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be.
For additional information, including how much to feed, here are links to some articles.

 

[vball91]

 

[pisces7386]

Thank you both! I have spent the last two days looking through the links in the forum I like to know what I am doing before I do it. 

I would definitely weigh the individual meatballs; we already weigh each dish at meal time everyday... I do cheat for their bedtime snack and just use a measuring scoop for their kibble. 

I think I will try with non-chicken recipes at first... but I will try the organic chicken in the future!! It is so exciting that she might be able to eat chicken because the options are just so limited without chicken. 

I have seen frankenprey around a lot but I can't quite seem to find a 'definition' for it. It sounds to me like it is just feeding them animal parts and meat chunks rather than ground up meats with added vitamins and minerals.. is this correct?

We've been struggling with how to feed our kitties with their apparent food sensitivities without breaking the bank and I think this raw/homemade might be it

 

[vball91]

Correct, frankenprey (or prey model raw) can be modified for bone in or boneless, with or without supplements.

Check out CatCentric.org: A raw feeding, feline nutrition, health and general cat care blog, article and resource site created by Tracy Dion. Extensive resources and information on Prey Model Raw (PMR) (otherwise known as "frankenprey") style of feeding, including information on whole prey diets, commercial raw, and canned products. PMR resources not found elsewhere include a weekly menu sample and a feeding calculator based on the 80% / 10% / 5% / 5% guideline.

 

[pisces7386]

Oh! that sounds helpful! I'm on my way to catcentric for more research! ( I have to admit I skipped over this page because the first link I tried to it didn't load right)

 

[ritz]

Frankenprey is 'slang' for feeding different parts from sometimes different animals. I typically give Ritz meat from a pig, liver from a chicken, kidney from a cow, and bones from rabbit when I'm splurging (rabbit is expensive and I can never get it on sale) or the aforementioned quail. Taken from "Frankenstein" horror movies.
For alternative sources of chicken or meat, check out farmers' market, especially those who butcher their own meat. A woman at my farmer's market raises her own chickens and knows exactly what they are fed. She says "no soy two weeks before butchering". If you develop a relationship with such a person, they may be able to save you organs not otherwise obtainable in grocery stores.
Chicken head anyone!

 

[pisces7386]

We have a great butcher shop just minutes from my house... and we are rural so there are many farms and farmers markets that I will be looking into. Our local grocery store is even really good about meats... we actually deal with them when we butcher our venison each year. 

I am starting to get excited about making food for our little kitties 

 

[cliff conquest]

I am just getting started on this journey and bought a Tasin TS-108 grinder. I am using the ready to prepare kit from feline's pride USA; they send you the premix powder and vitamins, you add meat (there are 2 varities of powder, one boneless, one for ground up meat with bone), egg yolk and water. I also bought a cheap (under $20) scale off amazon so I can get the portions right. I'd have to go back and do the math but I was targeting somewhere in the neighborhood of $0.75 for a 6 oz serving, so compare that to what you pay for the 5.5 oz can at your pet food store (ours is Petsmart). So far i've been using boneless chicken and chicken thighs I got @ walmart meat section but this is only week #1, have yet to visit the butcher.

 

[cliff conquest]

... and cornish hen seems reasonbaly priced if the chicken is a non-starter.

 

[pisces7386]

Okay- So I am starting to feel ready to try this out.. we already have a grinder so I am going to start with making homemade ground raw and maybe eventually working up to chunks/frankenprey style. To get started I am going to use feline's pride mix for boneless meat. Eventually I want to switch to a recipe I can make at home with all locally sourced ingredients.  I have two more things I want to ask about though. 

I am still having some trouble with our chicken issue.  I am okay with the 95/5 meat for the feline's pride mix, but almost all the recipes I see with grocery store meat include chicken, chicken skin, chicken fat, or chicken livers .  I look at the 80/10/5/5 from  prm and struggle to fit it together with the recipes. If I use venison, beef or pork, how do I create the correct proportions in the 80-87% meat, fat, and skin? It just says 80-87% total, which implies I can omit the skin right? I should just use meat and fat in a 95/5 ratio for this 80-87%? The 10% bone I will do with bone powders because I can't figure a way to add real bone without using chicken or rabbit. The 5 and 5 liver and other secreting organs is a bit troublesome also. I think I read somewhere that you can't use beef liver... I can't even think what I would do for this? Are there supplements I could use? Trying to avoid chicken makes this seem to overwhelming

     I've done up all the math and figured out how much we would need to feed them based on 3% ideal weight. I just want to check my math with y'all. Two of the cats are 7 month old kittens so I am using the the mother (10lbs) for their 'right now' calculations since we feed them about the same amount of canned right now. Eventually we think our little boy will grow very large ( he is 10 1/2 lbs at 7 months) so I also did the calculations for 'eventually'  based on one 9 lb, one 10 lb, and a 15 lb cat.  So-  daily right now we are looking at 4.8 oz each for a total of 14.4 oz. Eventually we are looking at  1 lb a day. This means I will need to make 6 lbs 4.8 oz of food a week right  now and 7 lbs a week in the future.  Does this sound right for three cats? Obviously this won't be exactly what they end up eating, but I just want a ballpark for how much I will need to make. 

Finally I need some reassurance- Do I sound like I know enough to actually do this? Or do you think I need to do more research before I try feeding my cats raw?

 

[vball91]

If you're not going to use bone, the calculations do change. Here's a thread about using egg and MCHA to balance meat. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs   If you are using a premix like Feline's Pride (which I'm not familiar with), there's usually a bone-in version and boneless version which accounts for the calcium.

Using skin and excess fat is a personal choice. It depends on how fatty or lean you want the grind to be. You can omit skin and fat and use muscle meat instead. There's no reason why you can't use beef liver unless there's an allergy involved. You can use freeze-dried liver in lieu of fresh which some cats prefer. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264261/calculations-for-dried-liver-as-part-of-frankenprey

I think your calculations for how much to feed are a good starting point, but don't be surprised if the 7 month olds eat more. I think there are a few kittens around that age who eat about 9 oz a day. Now, that wouldn't be forever, and that may be on the really high end, but you never know.

I think you're ready to start raw feeding. You know the basics and can adjust as you go.

 

[cliff conquest]

I would also say if you have any questions just call support @ Feline's Pride and talk to the nutritionist (I think her name is Jen/Jennifer). I talked to her before I made my first order and she was very helpful. Both of my kids are pretty thin, so she recommended I leave the skin on the chicken thighs I used. She also included vitamin A and D to replace the organs in my order, if you don't have access to them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the kittens ate more, like the last post mentioned. I made about a week's worth first time out because I didn't want to make a whole lot then have them turn up their noses, but so far so good as far as them eating it. I'm still dealing with a diarrhea issue with one, but that has been ongoing; one of the reasons I made the decision to try raw in the first place. I have read in several places you don't want to microwave the frozen raw food to get it to lukewarm temp for feeding, so you'll want to remember to move the food from freezer to fridge the day before. I also had good luck putting my tupperware in the sink in hot water to defrost it. If you're kids are anything like mine, they aren't all that patient when it comes to feeding time, particularly since I'm switching them to twice a day feeding as opposed to the open grazing of kibble supplemented with wet food after work.