Confused about what's considered balanced

[clary7]

So I've been feeding my cats a half raw diet for some time now, I don't remember when I started but I think it's been about a year now. I've been following this recipe - Feline Nutrition - Feline Nutrition's Easy Homemade Cat Food Recipe | Hare Today

I was under the impression that supplements absolutely need to be used when making raw food for cats, unless you are feeding whole prey. However, I recently joined a raw feeding facebook group for cats and that group does not support supplements at all. Their outline is this: 70 to 80% muscle meat, 10 to 20% bone, 10% organ meat.
Regarding organ meat, either 10% liver or 5% liver and 5% a different secreting organ.
Regarding muscle meat, as long as you feed hard working muscle meat there will be sufficient taurine in the meals, so you do not need extra taurine supplements. It's just important not to use rabbit and I think chicken breast as the main muscle meat, since those are too low in taurine. They say those are fine occasionally but not long term since the taurine content will be too low in those meats.
Then sardines and eggs can also be added additonally to the recipe if desired.

So now I'm confused, because I thought supplements were mandatory for raw cat recipes. I've been adding vitamins, fish oil, taurine, and salt to my cats raw food, but this group is saying that thats unnecessary if you're using the right meat and ratios. It's just hard to me to imagine that one type of muscle meat + bone and only one organ (liver) is enough to be considered a balanced recipe. I would love to use a simpler recipe, that would make things so much easier and faster for me, but I'm just confused about whether the outline above can truly be considered a balanced meal.

For example, this is one recipe the group shares (I think the simplest recipe they have)
- 2.5 lbs of chicken wings
- 4.4 pounds of any boneless meat except rabbit or chicken breast
- 0.77lb of any liver

Is this truly balanced??

To compare, here is the recipe I am used to using, from the link at the start of my post:

- 4.5 pounds chicken thighs with bone. Remove about 20 to 25% of the bone from the total amount of meat used. Remove the skin from half of the thighs.
- 7 ounces raw chicken liver
- 14 ounces raw chicken heart. If you can't source chicken heart, then substitute with 4000 mg Taurine. If you do omit raw heart, remember to make up the missing 14 ounces of heart with additional chicken thigh meat.
- 8 ounces water.
- 4 raw egg yolks
- 2000 mg Taurine
- 4000 mg wild salmon or wild caught small fish oil
- 200 mg Vitamin B Complex
- 200 IU Vitamin E
- 1 ½ teaspoons Lite Iodized Salt

After using so many supplements, I find it hard to believe that a 2 ingredient recipe is balanced. So I just want some more opinions here. Is the facebook group correct in saying that supplements aren't truly necessary if you have the right type of meat and ratios? Or is the group incorrect?

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi. Honestly, if this were me, I would talk to a veterinary nutritionist in order to get factual information.

 

[white shadow]

Hi C clary7 !

I'm sure you'll also get some informed response from some of the folks here who actually raw feed.....

But, in the meantime, there's likely another (also informed and trustworthy) source you could pursue. Two of our most-feline-health/nutrition-knowledgeable members, "ldg" - Laurie and "carolina" - Carolina currently run a raw-feeding FB group, this one, and while their focus is ibd kitties, I doubt you'll get turned away from there!

You could also reach that duo on their business website....their story is here - I'm sure you can navigate from there!
.

 

[sophie1]

I wish there was gold-standard evidence for exactly what kitties require nutritionally but there isn't. AAFCO feeding trials are helpful but not even close to ideal, since they are so brief and use only a small number of cats.

Here's what we know about raw feeding:

Pottenger's cats study: Cats fed a diet of cooked meat & organs plus raw milk vs. same diet but with raw meat, for several generations. The cooked diet cats showed up with severe nutritional deficiencies that worsened with each successive generation, until the third generation kittens couldn't survive long and could not reproduce. The raw diet cats did fine (and with no extra supplements). Unknown what the deficiencies in the cooked diet were.

UC Davis raw rabbit trial: This was an unsupplemented diet of raw ground rabbit (single protein, no other foods). Cats did well for a while but a few turned up with serious cardiac deficiencies that were established to be due to taurine deficiency (via dietary analysis, blood levels, and resolution of effects after supplementing taurine). Unknown if the problem was taurine loss due to grinding then freezing, or if rabbit is too low in taurine to use as sole protein.

Dr. Lisa Pierson - effectively a decades-long feeding trial of multiple cats; diet either raw or partial-baked chicken, turkey, and some rabbit mixed with chicken, plus a collection of supplements that form the basis for both the EZ Complete and Alnutrin recipes, as well as that recipe you followed.

So if you put all these together...safest option is to stick with supplementation. There is also a school of thought that says you don't need supplements if you feed a variety of proteins, and given the Pottenger study that may be ok - except that doesn't account for the possibility that feeding GROUND food could still be a problem. If you're going to count on getting by without supplements by feeding a variety of proteins, I would suggest making sure you have a good variety of proteins & cuts, and don't feed everything in ground form. Also, I would definitely supplement fish oil because the meats you're feeding aren't going to match the quality of meat in the 1930s and 1940s when Pottenger was running his trial.

Finally...10-20% may be ok for dogs but that is seriously problematic for cats. Based on our experiences the members of this forum use 5-10% bone content, with some cats requiring the low end of that range because of constipation problems.

 

[clary7]

Thank you for such a detailed reply! This information is so helpful. Your last point about meat being lower quality these days is also really good to keep in mind too.

I think I will probably stick with the supplements then to be safe. I might switch it up every once in a while with the simpler recipes, but I think I will mostly be sticking to my current recipe then, and I am also planning on adding whole prey to their diets too soon. So I guess the more variety, the better!

 

[Furballsmom]

the meats you're feeding aren't going to match the quality of meat in the 1930s and 1940s when Pottenger was running his trial.

Can I ask why? What has brought about this difference from then to now? I can think of beef, other than organic, having antibiotics in it, but I'm guessing that's not what you're referring to.

feeding GROUND food could still be a problem.

I'm assuming you're talking about the owners such as the OP grinding their own meat. If so, why is grinding an issue?

 

[Jabzilla]

Hey,
What really helped me was taking the nutrition course on Raw Fed & Nerdy. Free Raw and Cooked Canine Diet Nutrition Course - Raw Fed & Nerdy (rawfedandnerdy.com) It teaches you about every vitamin, mineral, fatty acid, and proteins that cats (and dogs) need. I supplement my cats raw diets while also feeding a variety of meats and organs. That's because each meat and organ has a different nutrient profile. You can see that yourself if you look up say chicken breast and then pork tenderloin on the USDA food database. You'll see that each food has different amounts of every nutrient. For my cats, I use the forumation sheet from Raw Fed & Nerdy. It can use the NRC or AAFCo guidelines (I use NRC). I plug in various meats, organs, and raw meaty bones and then add supplements to cover whatever nutrients are too low. Raw Fed and Nerdy Formulation Sheet - Raw Fed and Nerdy

Once you have a grasp on the balance of vitamins, minerals, fats, etc, you will see how pre mixes like EZ Complete and Alnutrin work. They're providing enough vitamins and minerals to keep your cat covered, regardless of the meat you decide to feed. If you want to get into specifics, then using a sheet like the one from Raw Fed & Nerdy is the way to go, as you will get the exact amounts that are needed to balance the diet based on the nutritional info from the exact amounts of whichever meat you're feeding. Rabbit, for example is lower in taurine than some other meats. So the sheet will require you to add more taurine via supplement, or you can increase the amount of heart being fed. Increasing the amount of heart also raises the amount of arachidonic acid (an omega 6 fatty acid), so that's also something to keep in mind. Using a formulation sheet helps a lot and is custom for your cat.

 

[Jabzilla]

Also, if you want to test your current diet, you can use the nutrient calculator to find out how much of each nutrient your cat needs per day. NRC Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats | Calculator (rawfedandnerdy.com) And then look up the ingredients you're using here FoodData Central (usda.gov) and compare the results between the two.

I say all of this as someone who started with the Pierson recipe, learned about PMR and tried that, and then learned more about the specific nutritional information for cats and now use the formulation sheet. To me, those guides seem like stepping stones from simple intro to raw to becoming more in depth and complex as one's knowledge increases.

 

[daftcat75]

Taurine is sensitive to storage, handling, cooking, age,...I'm sure taurine degrades if you look at it wrong.

I definitely would not trust my cat's health to an FB group. Even here, I recommend taking responses with a grain of salt. Verify it.

I would stick with supplementation. I also believe in keeping a canned food in the rotation just in case you're getting your recipe wrong.

10-20% bone content sounds too high.

 

[Jabzilla]

Lastly, Perfectly Rawesome has a simple summary of the various nutrients and the foods they can be found in. Balanced cat (or dog) food really means it meets all of the nutritional requirements for the animal. Raw Feeding NRC Essential Nutritient Guides, Canine & Puppy Nutrition (perfectlyrawsome.com) (All of the urls say canine, but they include requirements for cats and kittens on there as well.)

NRC Nutritional Requirements for Cats, Cat Nutrition, Raw Feeding (perfectlyrawsome.com)

An example of one of their lists of micro nutrients and the foods it can be found in. Microminerals, NRC Essential Nutrients for Pets, Canine Nutrition (perfectlyrawsome.com) You can see how different foods have more of some mineral than others. That's the foundation for feeding multiple meat and organs. If your cat can't eat foods that are good sources of a nutrient, then supplements for said nutrient are mandatory in order to prevent the cat from becoming deficient in that area. For example, my cats cant have beef, lamb, goat, or bison and I dont have access to canned oysters or turkey liver, so I have to supplement Copper for them. Quail is a source of it but not nearly as much as the foods on the list. So my cats get quail as a natural source of Copper and a small amount of Copper Bisglycinate to fulfil their requirements for that nutrient.

 

[lisahe]

Taurine is sensitive to storage, handling, cooking, age,...I'm sure taurine degrades if you look at it wrong.

I definitely would not trust my cat's health to an FB group. Even here, I recommend taking responses with a grain of salt. Verify it.

I would stick with supplementation. I also believe in keeping a canned food in the rotation just in case you're getting your recipe wrong.

10-20% bone content sounds too high.

Agreeing about all these points that daftcat75 makes, particularly diversifying your menu portfolio, which can be done with commercial raw food instead of canned food. This is handy in case an ingredient is unavailable or slow getting to you. It also helps prevent boredom. We feed a combination of homemade cooked food, various canned foods, and even some dry food for our pickier cat -- thank goodness we do because oh how things can change!

High bone content can cause constipation so 10-20% sounds high to me, too. (Been there, done that on that point, too. Egg shell calcium Alnutrin works well!)

As for trust, I settled on our cats' menu and eating regimen after lots of reading, discussions with our vets, and suggestions I've read online. But of course nobody knows everything about feline (or human, for that matter!) nutrition -- as sophie1 notes in another great post, there are no gold standard studies for raw feeding -- so it's worth taking a sort of consensus, better-safe-than-sorry, approach. The resources that J Jabzilla look very worth checking, too!

 

[sophie1]

Thanks for those pointers J Jabzilla , and also lisahe 's comments...

I do try really hard to give my cats at least 5-7 different proteins....I'm not doing quite so well on the variety of cuts & organs, but I do what I can. Also, sometimes my cats get a "frankenprey" meal, e.g. chunked chicken thighs and hearts, that I don't supplement. They also have become quite expert at hanging around the kitchen when I'm cooking with fresh meat, begging for tastes. They love it.

About my comment on meat quality....that's about several things in the food supply chain that affect us as well as our pets. First, food from industrial farms is grown in over-used and extremely nutrient-poor soil, which is why they are so dependent on fertilizers. Second, the meat you're feeding, if you're buying at the grocery and trying to keep costs down, is almost certainly from grain-fed animals - and the grain comes from those industrial farms. They don't get to graze on grass, peck worms and insects from the ground, or eat kitchen scraps, which is how things worked in the 1930s. They also are typically housed in very close quarters with little opportunity for sun and fresh air. That's why they get sick so commonly that antibiotics are routinely added to the feed - the grain-based diet makes them sick, just as it does for people. And of course both your cats and you get to ingest those antibiotics, which among other problems will wreak havoc on your gut microbiome as they can still be active. Plus there's the growth hormones also added to the feed.

It's one reason why I order from Hare Today, their meats are mostly from local farms and I'm pretty sure are better quality than the grain-fed crap in your local grocery. And, it's why Dr. Pierson strongly advocates fish oil, because the omega6:3 ratio in grain-fed meat is way too high. Humans don't do well on high omega6 diets but apparently (based on what Dr. Pierson says on her website) it's even worse for cats.

Sorry you got me started on that little soapbox. I'm pretty sure this has a lot to do with degrading health and falling life expectancy for Americans in general, and maybe also the widespread diseases like hyperthyroidism and renal failure in cats. Not much you can do about it except find sources of non-factory-farmed meats if you can.