Confused about salmonella

[finchius]

Hi all,

I'm in a bit of a dilemma and quite sad about it.  This is going to be long and perhaps I'm venting as well.

My cat started gradually being lethargic and not eating since Thursday (ate 90% of homemade raw), Friday had to be coaxed into eating (ate 50%), Saturday he ate a few mouthfuls and Sunday he refused breakfast. I had had enough and took him to the emergency vet.  The vet said he had an upper respiratory infection which might have been brought on by suspected case of herpes (he was rescued from the humane society as a stray and has since been vaccinated but he might have already been a carrier).  Don't know which was the trigger, herpes and then URI or URI and then herpes.  She also found he had mild gas which might be a secondary GI issue and the same problem, which triggered which first.   Anyways, she did a blood test which came back relatively within range and normal.  My cat was given an appetite stimulant and also something to reduce his fever.

So the same Sunday in which he came back from the vet, he perked up, ate his prescribed canned cat food but only ate a quarter of the can.  I gave him more mouthfuls of raw and also tuna since he wanted to eat.  He had one bowel movement in which I noticed his stools got stinkier and softer.  Later in the night, he vomited.  Still, he was hungry and was amendable to eating a couple more mouthfuls of raw food before going to bed. 

Monday, morning, he vomited again, showed distress going to the litter.  He did not want to eat again so I left him be thinking I had upset his stomach.  He ate three different types of food (probably my mistake)!  I still left out his canned food and poached his raw food because I was going to be away at work.  After I got home from work he was listless and I just let him be.  At the very minimum, he had been drinking water throughout his malaise.

Tuesday, he perked up, and ate tuna (didn't touch the raw or the canned prescription stuff).  Still, I had scheduled him to go to the vet in case he would puke up his tuna.  He had a couple of squirty drops of diarrhea but I really thought he was on the mend.  No vomiting issues (nothing to come out on either end!) However, the regular vet said he was dehydrated enough that he would like for him to be put on IV overnight and run a course of antibiotics on him.  My cat also had an xray to make sure no foreign bodies were in there.  They only found gas in his upper intestine which would account for his vomiting because he couldn't get it down.  Oh, and no more fever as well.  What had started out as herpes/URI was now focused on a GI issue that might have been resolved on its own...  But you want to do right by your cat and make sure he's okay so I said yes to the treatment plan...  I get him back hopefully tomorrow (Wednesday) if he gets better...

Anyways, to wrap this up, I'm concerned about the course of antibiotics now.   I suspect the vet giving him antibiotics because he is not in favor of a raw food diet and he suspected a case of salmonella.   A lot of vets are concerned about salmonella and I just don't understand the conflicting literature.  Why do proponents of homemade food such as Dr. Pierson propose a half-cooked version and Dr. Becker say don't worry about salmonella in cats since it's naturally occurring in their GI tract anyways.  The cat's stomach acid can kill it, raw feeders say.  If that's the case, why worry AT ALL about salmonella recalls in pet food?  Is it just for human benefit since we handle their food?  What about my cat now?  Can my cat handle a raw diet now once he comes back from getting his innards "cleansed"?

I'm just so sad about the whole thing.  It was a kitty flu and diarrhea...  geez.  Was it over intervention?  I didn't want to be wrong and risk it so I said yes.  You should have seen my cat clawing back to me while they took him away.  Now I don't know what I'll do when he comes back.  What's he going to eat?

 

[mschauer]

If I understand you correctly no one has suggested that salmonella may be the cause of your kitties illness, right? You are just speculating that the reason the vet prescribed antibiotics is because he suspects salmonella?

If that's correct I don't think there is any reason to jump to the conclusion that either your cat's illness was caused by salmonella or even that your vet suspects that. My vet has prescribed antibiotics several times when she wasn't positive what the problem was but she suspected an infection of some kind. Vomiting, diarrhea and gas are all symptoms of a bacterial infection but the bacteria doesn't have to be salmonella. It could be any number of other bacteria that he could have picked up in any number of ways.

I don't doubt  there are circumstances where salmonella can make a cat sick but it truly doesn't seem to be a problem with raw feeding so it does seem that cats can handle that bacteria and others better than humans can. Cooking or partially cooking the meat takes away doubt and some people feel more comfortable with that.

And, yes, when it comes to pet food recalls because of salmonella it is mostly out of concern for humans not pets.

 

[finchius]

Yes, I am speculating.  This is due to the fact that on my first visit to the vet, I told him I was a raw feeder and he gave me literature against raw food.  On the other hand, you can probably say he was doing his due diligence to inform me of the consequences.  I read the articles in any event because I wanted to weigh the pros and cons, and the risks I was willing to accept.   This incident (my second visit to the vet) has scared me.  Even though I practice safe food handling, I am second guessing myself.  When I get my cat back, I will throw out my batch of frozen raw food and make another new batch.  I am so freaked out.

I am somewhat comforted by your experience that it could have been any number of bacteria my cat could have picked up.  More unknowns...  

When did you resume raw feeding after a round of antibiotics?  I will ask the vet as well but I just can't shake off my feeling of his bias against homemade raw food.  

 

[mschauer]

When did you resume raw feeding after a round of antibiotics?  I will ask the vet as well but I just can't shake off my feeling of his bias against homemade raw food.  

Right away since there was no reason to suspect the food had anything to do with the problem. 

 

[lisamarie12]

 
Yes, I am speculating.  This is due to the fact that on my first visit to the vet, I told him I was a raw feeder and he gave me literature against raw food.  On the other hand, you can probably say he was doing his due diligence to inform me of the consequences.  I read the articles in any event because I wanted to weigh the pros and cons, and the risks I was willing to accept.   This incident (my second visit to the vet) has scared me.  Even though I practice safe food handling, I am second guessing myself.  When I get my cat back, I will throw out my batch of frozen raw food and make another new batch.  I am so freaked out.

I am somewhat comforted by your experience that it could have been any number of bacteria my cat could have picked up.  More unknowns...  

When did you resume raw feeding after a round of antibiotics?  I will ask the vet as well but I just can't shake off my feeling of his bias against homemade raw food.  

I'm sorry you had to go through this with kitty, anyone would be a bit rattled and confused by it all, given your experience.

Mschauer gives you  wise advice, however. 

As far as your vet's bias against raw, he is not in the minority as it seems that most vets, in general, are biased against raw, with or without reason. Our first vet, who only had cats as patients, was very anti-raw, while our second vet had a display of Primal FD raw in the reception / waiting area.

So there are vets out there who are supportive of bio-appropriate diets they just seem to be far and few.

Vets take their cues usually from the AVMA which is against raw feeding, although from my reading and interpretation of the AVMA's position on raw, they don't appear to be against HPP raw:

"The AVMA discourages the feeding to cats and dogs of any animal-source protein that has not first been subjected to a process to eliminate pathogens ... Cooking or pasteurization through the application of heat until the protein reaches an internal temperature adequate to destroy pathogenic organisms has been the traditional method used to eliminate pathogens in animal-source protein, although the AVMA recognizes that newer technologies and other methods such as irradiation are constantly being developed and implemented."

Regardless of this, we know that many cats and dogs that are fed non-HPP raw do very well on those diets, we see that here on this site. It doesn't mean, however, as Mschauer mentioned, that salmonella poisoning doesn't exist. 

Statistically though, there appear to be far greater recalls with kibble and salmonella, than raw.

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/lets-get-the-facts-straight-fda/

Also, keep in mind that many vets may only see their clients and furry friends once or twice a year. When they hear "raw" they may also think people leave raw  meat out for free feeding, that it is not a properly supplemented diet, any number of reasons, aside from their general bias.

I just assume that most vets are anti-raw and the ones that understand raw feeding are in the minority but hopefully this will gradually change.  I have read from other TCS members (and other sites), that some vets who are normally anti-raw have to reconsider their bias when they see how well the raw fed animals look, how healthy they are, when they go in for their vet visits, e.g., shiny coats, nice teeth, stable weight, etc.

You could try Dr. Pierson's half cooked recipe or an HPP raw diet temporarily and then ease your way back to your homemade raw diet.

Do what you feel most comfortable with, nothing is set in stone anyway, you can always make changes down the road again.

 

[finchius]

Thank you, LisaMarie.  I got my cat (Finch) back this afternoon.  He looks more alert so I am satisfied even though I'm suspicious if the GI intervention was necessary.  But it's done now and hopefully he's on his way back to his normal, playful self.  

He still won't eat heartily and only a few nibbles at his prescription can food.  Even though I thought about holding off the raw until a month, he just looked so pathetic and hungry I gave him a few bites of his raw.  Sigh.  The vet's instructions say to feed a gastrointestinal specific diet like Hills i/d or MCRC Gastro.  The problem is, he doesn't like it.   There is so much I still need to learn about nutrition.

A 5.5 oz Hills i/d can is said to have a guaranteed analysis of crude protein min of 7.5% (75 g/kg), crude fat min of 4.0% (40 g/kg).  I thought that the recommended protein for an adult cat is 25-30% and 15-20% fat.  The can also has an AAFCO statement that says it meets its testing procedures as a complete and balanced diet.  I just don't understand how this can be since it's so far off from the recommended numbers?  Am I somehow interpreting the numbers wrong? 

 

[mschauer]

A 5.5 oz Hills i/d can is said to have a guaranteed analysis of crude protein min of 7.5% (75 g/kg), crude fat min of 4.0% (40 g/kg).  I thought that the recommended protein for an adult cat is 25-30% and 15-20% fat.  The can also has an AAFCO statement that says it meets its testing procedures as a complete and balanced diet.  I just don't understand how this can be since it's so far off from the recommended numbers?  Am I somehow interpreting the numbers wrong? 

The AAFCO recommendations are on a dry matter basis. What is on the label is the as fed quantity which includes water. You don't say what the moisture content of the food is so I can't calculate the dry matter equivalent but I have no doubt the Hill's meets the recommendations.

 

[lisamarie12]

 
Thank you, LisaMarie.  I got my cat (Finch) back this afternoon.  He looks more alert so I am satisfied even though I'm suspicious if the GI intervention was necessary.  But it's done now and hopefully he's on his way back to his normal, playful self.  

He still won't eat heartily and only a few nibbles at his prescription can food.  Even though I thought about holding off the raw until a month, he just looked so pathetic and hungry I gave him a few bites of his raw.  Sigh.  The vet's instructions say to feed a gastrointestinal specific diet like Hills i/d or MCRC Gastro.  The problem is, he doesn't like it.   There is so much I still need to learn about nutrition.

A 5.5 oz Hills i/d can is said to have a guaranteed analysis of crude protein min of 7.5% (75 g/kg), crude fat min of 4.0% (40 g/kg).  I thought that the recommended protein for an adult cat is 25-30% and 15-20% fat.  The can also has an AAFCO statement that says it meets its testing procedures as a complete and balanced diet.  I just don't understand how this can be since it's so far off from the recommended numbers?  Am I somehow interpreting the numbers wrong? 

I'm glad Finch is doing better, that is the best of news.

Mschauer is correct in mentioning that it is not the guaranteed analysis of the label that reflects the true values of the food, but rather, the protein / fat amounts are calculated on a dry matter basis, after the moisture in the food is removed.

Hill's ID actually has those values posted on a dry matter basis:

http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-id-feline-gastrointestinal-health-canned.html

The DMB protein being roughly 34% and the fat 24%.

There are some  cats who don't like the Rx foods. First and foremost kitties must eat so do your best to get Finch to eat what he likes as you sort through the options. Unfortunately I'm not sure what to advise you in this area given his recent hospital stay, maybe others will chime in to assist. 

Sending good thoughts your way ...

 

[finchius]

Thank you both for educating me about this.

The moisture content in the Hills i/d is 78% max.  (780 g/kg).

So here's what I don't get about dry matter basis.  Just by adding moisture (i.e. water), it will jump from minimum of 7.5% protein to the recommended range?

And I don't understand the discrepancy on the label of the can that I listed to what is written on the website:

http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-id-feline-gastrointestinal-health-canned.html 

The table gives numbers I was hoping to see on the same 5.5 oz can.  But they say it's dry matter.  So even dry matter gives 37% protein etc.?

This is so confusing

 

[finchius]

Thank you both for educating me about nutrition.  This is still very, very confusing.

The moisture max content on the Hills i/d is 78% (780 g/kg).  So by adding moisture to it, it magically elevates the dry matter basis from a crude protein min of 7.5% to the recommended 30+% levels?  Is that what you're explaining?

And I don't understand the discrepancy on the can label and what is written on the website under the Average Nutrient and Caloric Content  tab.

It is using dry matter basis as well, but the protein percentage is more in line of what I was expecting to see on the can: 37.6.

They probably mean the same thing, I just don't know how to read it...

 

[lisamarie12]

 
Thank you both for educating me about nutrition.  This is still very, very confusing.

The moisture max content on the Hills i/d is 78% (780 g/kg).  So by adding moisture to it, it magically elevates the dry matter basis from a crude protein min of 7.5% to the recommended 30+% levels?  Is that what you're explaining?

And I don't understand the discrepancy on the can label and what is written on the website under the Average Nutrient and Caloric Content  tab.

It is using dry matter basis as well, but the protein percentage is more in line of what I was expecting to see on the can: 37.6.

They probably mean the same thing, I just don't know how to read it...

It can be a bit confusing.  

The purpose of converting the guaranteed analysis to a dry matter basis has a lot to do with *comparing* different manufacturer labels.  So for e.g., lets say you have  brands (A) and (B) canned foods and you want to know the protein level for each.  Just looking at the GA, assume that brand (A) has a protein of 11% with 78% moisture added and brand  (B) is 10% protein with 82% moisture.  If you are looking for a higher protein food, you may think that brand (A) would be your choice just looking at the guaranteed analysis, however, when you calculate the DBM for both, brand (B) would be your choice for higher protein.

The moisture content added to foods is different for each manufacturer, hence, in order to get a more accurate reading of the protein or fat content for each, the moisture has to be removed.

Re: Hills / ID and the Average Nutrient and Calorie Content, they just went ahead and did the favor of posting the DMB.

Here are a couple of links that may be useful in clarifying:

http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/companion/our-services/nutrition-support-service/comparing-pet-foods

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=2690

After all this, you may be wondering why manufacturers just don't list the DMB on the labels instead of the GA - this is b/c AAFCO requires that the moisture content be listed on the labels. 

http://petfood.aafco.org/labelinglabelingrequirements.aspx#overview

Hope this helps.

 

[lmw142]

The dry matter basis numbers are calculated by removing the moisture content. So the numbers on the can are low because the nutrients are being diluted by all that water. Dry matter basis takes that moisture out of the equation and tells you more accurate percentages of the nutrients in the food. I hope that makes a little more sense, but all this stuff can be confusing.

 

[lmw142]

I didn't see LisaMarie12's comment before I posted. She gave a lot of great info!