Cats vs Dogs Raw Feeding

[cprcheetah]

I have fed my chihuahua Zoey raw for 3 & 1/2 years now.  I have to mix hers up with the organs into like ice cube shaped things, grinding everything (meat, eggs, eggshells etc, organs) or I can not get her to eat organs. She also gets a boney meal and whole prey mice.   I do prey model raw with her 80% meat, 10% bone and 5% liver, 5% kidneys.  I am wanting to switch at least Munchie my boy to start.  He is having major health issues heart and joint issues.  Switching Zoey to raw was a life saver for her.  She has so many less health issues.  Seriously has 28 pages of medical history and most of it was pre-raw.  She was on 7 medications before raw, now she is on 1.  He isn't eating good, but he loves raw.  However he cannot handle even like a speck of raw hamburger or he barfs it up immediately.  I usually feed my chihuahua a variety of beef, pork, chicken, fish alternating each meal what she gets.  Is it as critical to provide the cats with a variety?  Munchie loves chicken bones so I don't think it will be a problem getting him to eat the boney portions of the raw.  Are cats the same as dogs as far as 2-3% a day?  He is overweight so I am assuming 2% to get him to lose a few pounds? 

 

[ldg]

Well, variety is important, but many cats can't handle red meats. But you can use chicken, turkey, cornish hen - rabbit if you can get it, quail, pheasant, duck... and my kitty that can't handle red meat does fine with pork (and loves it!).

Cats do better with more fat than dogs (and I think they require more of it). Of course, fat has almost twice the calories as protein, so with the need for weight loss, you obviously don't want a high fat diet!

But the guidelines are the same - though kitties typically need less bone. That 10% was developed for dogs, but a cat's prey has more like 5% (mice and rats) to 10% (rabbits). Most find cats only need 6% - 8% bone. But if you're going to use eggshell, then it's quite easy. 1/2 teaspoon per pound of meat/organ (if you're using the 5% liver / 5% other secreting organ guidelines).

I feed a modified PMR diet. In fact, I feed 8 cats, and some won't eat fresh liver OR kidney - or can't keep it down. I add eggshell powder or MCHA (freeze dried bone) per meal. Here's a thread on it, to illustrate: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264489/making-a-meal-pictures

Most of my cats eat towards the 2%, but they're indoor-only and not that active. One is eating a little less than that, actually, but he has a strange metabolism.

Basically, if he eats at least 50% of his ideal weight, apparently that is how you avoid the risk of fatty liver (according to Dr. Pierson). Of course, targeting a slower rate of weight loss is healthier.

Hopefully @mschauer will chime in here, because she has a lot of experience with kitties and weight loss....

 

[miki]

I try to feed about the same ratio (80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% kidneys) to Belle, my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. She also refuses to eat organs, and I try to alternate what kind of meat she gets in her food. I haven't had her for very long, but so far no health issues at all. I have used the same method with Miki. 

Cats are “obligate carnivores,” which means they need to eat animal protein to obtain all the amino acids they need in their diets. The vital amino acid cats can't get from any source other than animal protein is taurine. Taurine is critical for a cat's normal heart, eye, and immune system function. But cats aren't normally great with red meats, so maybe chicken or turkey would be a good choice. Kitties are also normally healthier with more fat and less bone than dogs. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I like feeding Miki a smallish variety and I also feed her 2%. I think 2% is a good percentage for your Munchie.

Best wishes for you and Munchie! 

 

 

[ldg]

Yes - hearts and dark meats (thigh) are high in taurine. Always a good addition to the diet!

 

[cprcheetah]

Okay so next Question....Munchie had a sample of my dogs raw tonight and inhaled it.  But it has a small amount of organs in it.  With cats starting on raw, is it the same as dogs?  Where you feed boney pieces for a week or two then gradually start another protein for a week or so then keep adding different proteins then eventually organs?  I am really wanting to do this with Munchie.  I think it will benefit him.  Since he has decided he no longer needs to eat cat food lol. 

 

[cprcheetah]

So Munchie at some cornish hen with bones in it this morning for breakfast.  I did give him maybe 1 spoonful of canned food for his supplements and he ate it all.   Hubby walked in the hall while Munch was eating and Munchie ran away into the bathroom with his food thinking he was in trouble for having it.

.  He then tried to eat my chihuahuas raw (she has to have it warmed up to room temp).  She was eating her chicken mix today.  So I think this is really going to be the route to take with him.  YEAH! 

 

[vball91]

Sounds like the transition is going well. If Munchies likes the dog's raw which already has organs in it and is able to keep it down, there's no reason not to fed it to him. It sounds like it will be pretty easy since you are already familiar with the PMR proportions. Sometimes too much organs or a red meat will cause vomiting at first, so just take the introductions to new stuff slowly at first.

 

[cprcheetah]

Thank-you.  Yeah I have been feeding my dog raw for 3 & 1/2 years now.  The mixture I make up for her is complete and balanced.  I am going to follow Dr. Pierson's cat recipe for Munchie.  Just went out and got the ingredients I didn't have, however I don't have a grinder so will be doing the boneless with egg shells for the calcium.  I will also give him cornish hen, chicken and rabbit boney pieces.  Once he's a pro I have a lifetime supply of whole prey mice lol, so he will get those as well.  I think he will enjoy them, I know my chihuahua does.  I am going to add some of his supplements to his mix as that will make it easier to get them into him. 

So couple of questions:

1-  Munchie has heart problems. I have read that he should have added Taurine at about 500mg per day, is this okay?  Is that too much?

2-  Can I use Pork instead of chicken in Dr. Pierson's recipe?  That way he can have both pork and chicken for variety?

 

[ldg]

The additional taurine will NOT hurt, but I don't think you need that much. Taurine is water soluble, so it just gets excreted. And with the heart issue, it's one of those things better safe than sorry. :nod: Here's an article discussing it. http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-how-much-taurine-should-i-add

I think a number of people supplement to approximately 100% of daily need, which is typically about 250mg or so.

And yes, you can substitute pork for chicken in the recipe if he doesn't have a problem with it.

Really - you can feed him whatever proteins you want, given you're feeding it as a modified PMR and adding the supplements. I would suggest trying to stick to the 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ - which Dr. P doesn't do in her recipe. And yes - just introduce them at his speed. I do have several cats that refuse to eat kidney, so they usually get 10% liver instead. But they do like spleen and pancreas, so I do include those as the 2nd secreting organ at various meals.

I balance my kitties' modified PMR meals daily (I give them small amounts organs at one meal a day, rather than a larger amount at several meals a week - many PMR feeders balance over a week).

 

[Willowy]

If he'll eat it unground, you don't need to stick to any recipe. . .just feed him what you feed the dog, maybe with a touch less bone and add the taurine. I mean the Dr Pierson recipe is fine and good, but I think a more PMR-ish type diet is better, with more organs and variety.

 

[cprcheetah]

With my dog I feed her ground mix, only way I can get organs into her is to sneak them in so she doesn't know she is eating them, that or cook them and I'd rather feed them raw.  Now my bridge Min Pin would eat whole turkey necks in one sitting lol.  She didn't have a problem with chunks, she would eat anything and everything I gave her without hesitation.  I will see how Munchie does with chunks.  I know I have dropped liver on the ground before and he won't touch it.  Cedes on the other hand.....eats anything and everything I drop (still working on hubby to transition everybody to raw as I really think it is the best and ideal).  Was just thinking the ground up mix would be easier to get his supplements into him since he has decided he doesn't need to eat canned food anymore and they are in powder form, and he is a pain in the butt to pill. 

 

[peaches08]

I substitute in Dr. Pierson's recipe with no problems. Just add the regular supplements and whatever calcium source (I use eggshells). I also add powdered glandular supplements since I can't source organs locally.

Gizzards might be a good source of joint helping nutrients. Whole, ground...cheap and easy.