Cat peeing on curtains - and other places

[fuzzycat]

Hi all,

I have a multi-cat household. All of them rescues. All but one are older and well established. A few months ago I started noticed problem peeing in weird places and started to work to figure out who is causing the problem. I have been systematically taking everyone to the vets to be checked. Vet thinks this is a behavior problem and I am thinking the problem is the youngest cat - last one rescued.

He is about 2 1/2 - 3. He came into the house as 2 to 3 weeks old, a bottle baby. He was really sick at the time. Now, he likes to jump the other cats when they are in the box. The larger males ignore him, but there is one smaller female who has become stressed. He will corner her and back her down. I have added more boxes, worked to play with them more, started to pay more special attention to the smaller female and that has helped a little. But the curtains are still being peed on, daily. I have had them cleaned professionally, I have treated them with enzymes and odorcide, I have clean and Clorox everything I can. My curtains are ruined, but we have a larger older type house and we need decent window coverings (older windows). I even purchased new, cheaper, washable curtains and they were marked within a week.

I recently read, that you can have a cat who just doesn't like living with other cats, even if he is raised with them. Is this true? He is one of my husbands favorites - but I am spending my life cleaning. I am ready to consider re-homing him - and that is a big deal for us.



Thanks all

Fuzzycat

 

[moorspede]

Hi Fuzzycat, stupid question but are all your cats neutered/ spayed? This improves or fixes a whole host of behavioural issues. 

You don't mention the places that your cat pees other than the curtains. Lacking this information, I'm assuming it's a territorial problem. Your cat is marking her territory because she can see or smell other animals out there. 

[Article] Spraying: When Your Cat Uses Urine To Mark Territory

Sorry, I read your first post but not the second. 

It does sound like a territorial issue but not necessarily with cats outside. Your cat is definitely neutered? It can take a few months for the hormones to leave the system after a neutering operation. 

 

[fuzzycat]

Hi Moorspede,

Sorry about the length - I guess I am a bit frustrated. Yes, all cats are spayed and neutered. Most of my cats are 8+ and I have never had a problem with them. It has been a fairly stable household.

When the peeing started, I struggled to figure out who was doing it. I think at first I had two types. Marking type peeing and puddles - more indicative of a health problem. It started on the curtains (territory type), but then I started to find other pee spots,  the counter in my laundry room was repeatedly peed on, the kitchen counter peed on, the cat towers,  a basket of fabric, the dining room table, more recently my pillow and comforter. I am finding spots daily. 

I have also been having increasing confrontations between the youngest cat Kai, a 3 year old male, and the older cats. We took Kai in after my neighbors dogs found a littler in their back yard - the kittens were  sick and malnourished etc. - about 3 weeks old. For various reasons, I ended up with the litter. I found homes for the other kittens and kept this one - he was the sickest and has permanent scarring on his eyelid from his infection. He grew up with in this house, with these cats. However, slowly over the course of the past year he has become more aggressive towards the other cats. He likes to jump them when they are in the litter box - so my husband put a collar with a bell on it, thinking that might help. The confrontations between Kai and a smallish female have become daily. We have a reasonably sized home - there is room for them to avoid each other, but he is constantly confronting her and backing her down. He tries to play with/pick on the older males but they don't run and don't take much guff from him. 

I think the puddles were from my female from stress and the attacks and the marking from Kai. I have caught him twice. I have cleaned and cleaned and cleaned. I have  put in more boxes, have started to play more regularly with them, and started to take everyone into the vets for checks. I am making sure I pay more attention to my female ( she has always been my easiest cat) and I think I have made progress with her. The little male is another issue. 

He is spoiled. He does have a temper. He gets mad if I move him out of my lap and medicating him is a big problem -  he has never tried to actually bite me or really even seriously scratch me - but his bluster is impressive. He walks around the house with his tail up and curled over his back. He is also very bonded to me and he can  be a lovely snuggle kitty. 

I feed a quality diet, I feed (with the obvious occasional exception) at 8:00 am and 8:00 pm. Between my husbands schedule and mine, someone is home all day. Habit and pattern and predictability are a big part of our lives. We don't have children running through the house, the dog stays outside. I spread everyone out when I feed, so everyone more or less has their own special place to eat. 

This is beginning to impact my marriage. My husband wants the cats, I am doing all of the work. And, he is very found of the orange (ginger) boys - Kai is an orange classic tabby. My husband thinks I am unfairly targeting Kai. 

Thanks so much,

Fuzzycat

 

[fuzzycat]

Sorry, part of my core questions is this - is it possible for a cat who has been raised with other cats from kittenhood to just become intolerant of them as an adult?

The weird thing is I can get everyone all together during the play sessions - form a kind of break dance circle where each one takes a turn while the others sit around and watch. It is not like he is completely unwilling to interact with other cats.

Did he miss out on some important socialization because he was something of a pampered bottle baby?

Thanks again,

Fuzzycat

 

[gosalyn]

 
Sorry, part of my core questions is this - is it possible for a cat who has been raised with other cats from kittenhood to just become intolerant of them as an adult?

The weird thing is I can get everyone all together during the play sessions - form a kind of break dance circle where each one takes a turn while the others sit around and watch. It is not like he is completely unwilling to interact with other cats.

Did he miss out on some important socialization because he was something of a pampered bottle baby?

Thanks again,

Fuzzycat

I do suspect from your previous post that you are right about it being stress for the female and probably the newest young one, doing the marking. My cat has been peeing in the house too, on things. It's mostly on curtains, you said, which might indicate he sees something outside he doesn't like. maybe another cat. I don't think that he would suddenly become intolerant of them, unless there was a significant fight between him and another.

As for attacking them as they exit the litterboxes, are they covered ones? perhaps it would be best if you had lidless boxes instead. That way he can't corner the others in one so easily. Lidded boxes have one way in, one way out. having multiple exit directions makes it harder to ambush something.

 

[fuzzycat]

Hi Gosalyn,

Thank you for the response. I have both lidded and open boxes. Two of my boys are large and they do better in the open boxes with high sides. 

I have started to place cardboard or brown paper (like used for painting) in front of the sliding glass doors (under the curtains) so at least I can see a new pee spot easily. Because the curtains in the living room were already stained I soaked the hems in a strong concentration of Odercide. I think that may have helped for those curtain. I am ready to tear out the carpet, repaint and get new - except  our budget is tight and I want to know I have the problem under control first. 

I understand that the windows are territory - but he has also been marking the places where the other cats sleep - like my pillow, a corner in the closet in my study, on a blanket I set in a chair. At first I was concerned that one of my cats, Oliver,  had become incontinent or had diabetes, so he was one of the first I hauled off to the vets. Oliver is fine.

I found a new spot today in a pile of old fabric I was organizing for donation. To my knowledge, nobody has been there. I had covered it with paper to help keep them off - the paper was moved aside. 

What about jealousy peeing or does it count as territory?

How do you live with a cat that pees regularly? 

Fuzzycat

 

[fuzzycat]

Moorspede,

Thanks for the link. I have read the basics on territory and marking.

Is health related or territory my only two options here? Either he is sick (which has been ruled out) or he doesn't like living in a house with other cats.

Can a cat just grow up to be naturally territorial? My worry here is this is a problem that will never be fixed so long as he is living in a house with other cats.

Fuzzycat

 

[moorspede]

I'm sorry Fuzzycat, life has been getting in the way, I haven't been to the site recently. 

 
Moorspede,

Thanks for the link. I have read the basics on territory and marking.

Is health related or territory my only two options here? Either he is sick (which has been ruled out) or he doesn't like living in a house with other cats.

Can a cat just grow up to be naturally territorial? My worry here is this is a problem that will never be fixed so long as he is living in a house with other cats.

Fuzzycat

No,

No, not by any means is territorial marking and illness the only two options.

Forgive me for stating the obvious here:

Spraying ie marking territory is curtains, windows, doors, it happens because a cat is trying to mark it's territory. It is generally vertical. Have you seen evidence that there are cats outside? If there are you need to find a way of discouraging them and just for the time being cover the windows so Kai will be unable to see them. There are a number of products for sale which can automatically sense movement. Some people just use a mixture of lemon juice, or lavender or citrus essential oil and vinegar in a spray bottle and spray it outside.  

Peeing generally happens for a whole host of reasons. That you don't know if one cat is peeing and spraying or one cat is peeing and the other is spraying is a bit of a problem because then we have to use our best guess at how to fix the problem. You think it is Kai and you think that he is being possessive and jealous. Jealousy in cats comes from the same place in cats that it does in us. The cat is unsure of himself with regard to you and because he is lacking confidence and self esteem he acts out. The cure for this is what you've been doing all along, affection and attention, playing interactive games with just him. I've made a point of coming up to my jealous and bullying older cat to give her some soft words and a quick pet as I pass by her or seeking her out for some extra attention, it's worked wonders. 

Your young female needs to have her confidence built up too so that she can begin to face down Kai instead of running. She also needs a lot of places where she can get up high. I can't stress enough how confidence building this is for cats, they can feel safe and still be part of the household. 

One of the other posters made some good points about the litter boxes. It sounds like you have several which is great, if they are not placed in corners where the cats may be ambushed even better. You mention that you have quite a bit of space, if nothing is working and you are at your wits end you could try physically separating Kai from the female cat. I would note their habits and separate them around this ie if your young female often sleeps somewhere in the afternoon, that's her area and Kai gets moved elsewhere, areas could be swapped at different times of the days depending on their habits.  

Has Kai suddenly started to bully your other cats or is it just him? If it's a sudden thing it could be redirected aggression from whatever that is causing him to spray. Redirected aggression is when a cat is stressed or frustrated and is unable to fix the problem ie confront the cats outside and starts to pick on something that is smaller and weaker than him, ie the young female cat. 

If this bullying behaviour has always been a part of Kai's makeup he's just that way inclined. If he was biting the neck of your female cat as well as being territorial I would think it was a medical problem, ie that something had gone wrong during neutering and his body was still manufacturing hormones. 

Another thing is that when cats get to middle age as your older males are, they like to just lay back and have an easy life, they can't be bothered with territorial or alpha type behaviour. At the moment they are holding their own against him. The female is running away and acting scared which is bad because it is providing fuel for his behaviour. 

Have you tried feliway? Some cats react very well to it. It may moderate Kai's behaviour.  

Just a reminder, I know you say you've been using enzymatic cleaner but you mention others, please don't use ammonia based cleaners, ammonia is in cat pee, they are more likely to pee there if you use it. 

I think I've inundated you with information, I apologise that it is all over the place. I hope I've answered your questions.  

 

[fuzzycat]

Hi Moorspede,

I completely understand about job and life etc. and thank you for taking the time to respond and no, it was not too much information. Actually you have given voice to a concern that has been rattling around in the back of my head, and that is, could this be something that went wrong with his neutering?

All, save the oldest, of your cats have been pulled from a local colony. I will spare you the details but we have taken in two who were cryptorchid, which suggests to me that it runs in the colony. My understanding is that cryptorchidism is rare enough that to have found two cases is significant. I took Kai (the young bulling male) to a discount spay and neuter place. I would like to think they would have found it, but maybe it was an inexperienced vet - who knows. I have not seen him try and mount my female, but not seeing it happen doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

So, you have given me the confidence to take him back to a vet and ask pointedly about his genitals. I see an ex-ray in his future.

I think his aggressiveness and bullying has crept up slowly. I don't think this was an all of a sudden thing, just we were a little slow to recognize what was going on. He does try to bully all of the cats to some degree. The one older female is the only one he can actually back down and he does seem to try to pick on her. The spats between them have increased in frequency over the past 6 months or so to happening two or three times a day. He would looks for her and follows her. She does have places to go to get away from him but I do think we could help ourselves by putting up some floating shelving - I am having trouble getting my husband on board with that suggestion and may have to end up just doing it anyway. If it works he will be happy with it.

Part of my concern is could this be a case where is he has grown up to be a naturally dominate, bullying kind of cat? Don't take me wrong, he can be very loving and loves to cuddle, but when we move him off a lap he does swear at you. He has something of a potty mouth. No actual aggression towards us other than vocalization. When I pick up he is normally pretty soft, but he can get wiggly when I put him down. He is very bonded to me and would spend all day with just me if I let him. But I was the one who hand fed him when he was a kitten ( his litter was found sick and half starved and I ended up with them), so I assumed that was to be expected.

Separating them in different rooms is more of a problem mainly because I have already separated out my 17 year old and a male who is more feral than not. My 17 year old is selective as too who he likes and dislikes and I have learned that stressed cats become sick cats - so what Rikki wants, Rikki gets. About 5 years ago I had a vet tell me that he only had a few months to live, and largely due to excellent advise from people on your health form I have been able to navigate his medical issues. Basically, I am running out of room to separate everyone. I can close off one end of the house from the other, but when I tried that a month or so ago, someone (I think Kai), who was not on the side I was on, marked a brand new set of curtains.

So maybe jealousy and stress in two cats? One because she is being picked on and the other because he has become dominate and possessive? Calming my female down seems to have been the easier task. However, I am still finding new spots daily. The spots I have found recently are not the window, door spray kind. They are puddles on counters and bedding etc.


I don't clean with ammonia, but I do worry that part of what is happening is despite my best efforts I am missing small places, enough to encourage remarking. On the counter where I found a spot yesterday, there was a metal lamp that when I cleaned it this time I realized the felt pads on the bottom had become soaked and smelled. This is a spot that has been marked before - I had not paid attention the the bottom surface of the lamp. I had moved the lamp and cleaned underneath where it sat, but never turned it over and looked at the bottom. I even had the area covered with an old sheet and the marker pawed the sheet back and marked. Oooph!

I fear I will never get this organized and solved.

Fuzzycat

 

[moorspede]

Kai is still a very young cat, as you know he will no doubt mellow as he ages. Yes, he may just have a domineering personality. my older female cat is a bit like this, it's not a bad thing it just means she needs a firmer hand. There are some things you can do. When he looks like he's about to chase the female cat, you know the intent eyes, the crouch and the bottom wiggle, tell him no firmly. This works for my bullying female cat. If the firm no doesn't work at first clap your hands or hiss to get his attention or throw something soft toward him. If he insists on continuing to bully her separate him for a few minutes. Cats have short attention spans, it "resets" my bullying cat and will give Kai a few minutes to calm down if he needs it. This will help your female to gain confidence, also. 

If Kai ison your lap and he growls when you try to get him off, tell him a firm "No: or hiss (some of the forum people tap their cats on the nose, not hard, just to get their attention), stand up abruptly and move away (ignore him for a few minutes). This is similar to what a cat's mother would do. You have to be consistent or it won't work. 

As for the peeing, you could use a blue light. You can get them on ebay fairly cheaply. Feliway is often used for cats with behavioural and peeing.problems but it is expensive. It has fake friendly hormones that are supposed to calm the cat. People on the forum have had great results with cat attract either premixed with litter or in a jar (the manufacturers say that it needs to be used with clumping clay litter only). You need to clean the area up thoroughly before you try the cat attract though or it won't work.

I looked at cheap ground sheets and painters plastic sheeting when my kitten was peeing. I chose a heavy plastic which was tough enough to handle claws, it was relatively cheap too. My kitten peed on rugs, the bed and the lounge and the floor. I placed the plastic on the bed and the lounge, I didn't need to have them there long, only a few weeks. Cats don't tend to like the feel of it. I picked up the mats for the duration. Some people place bathmats upside down where the cat is peeing, cats hate the little spikes. We tried feeding the cat in newly cleaned places where she'd  previously peed, cats tend not to pee where they eat. Other things you could try is placing objects where they pee, or closing places off for a few weeks. If there is a fairly large area you could try moving a litter tray to that place, the idea is to very gradually move it back to where you want it to be. 

Yes it does sound really hard, I know how discouraging it was for me when my kitten started peeing, it felt like I would never solve the problem. Which reminds me. there is a radical way of retraining a cat who no longer uses the litter tray if all else fails. You lock the cat into a small room, preferably a bathroom or a laundry with the litter box, bowls, bedding and toys. After the cat has eaten and been to the toilet you allow the cat to leave the room for a very short time of supervised play, attention, etc. The cat cannot be allowed to go to the toilet outside the room, hence the short time. Next day after the cat has been to the toilet in the box you let it out for a little longer. You need to continue this for a two to three weeks, by the end the cat should be staying out most of the time without going to the toilet anywhere but the litter tray.    

If your husband doesn't like the idea of floating shelves it's just a matter of being inventive. Cats love window seats and while they are only of midway height they are infinitely better than cowering under objects like beds etc. We have a cat tree right next to a cablinet, it gives my (hopefully) ex bullied cat a chance to have a large area up high to sleep on in peace. My partner has fashioned a bookshelf on his desk, it has a shelf on top in front of the window for the cats to lie in. There are endless possibilities, one of my friends has really attractive bookshelf made of floating shelves, her cats use the tops.    

 

[fuzzycat]

Hi Moorspede,

Thanks all that helps. It helps to know what to pay attention to.

Oh, and just this morning I was wondering about feeding in a cleaned spot - if that would help with the re-soiling.

I read somewhere recently that cats tend to revisit a marked area every 3 days or so (was that you?). So I am keeping a log of when and where I find the spots. See if that helps me see a larger pattern.

He does use the box. This is more like marking, it is sticker and there is less staining, more smell. However, I am still finding spots daily - so I still working hard on the cleaning. I have been covering all areas with heavy plastic after I clean them.I know that does help a lot. Also, I was thinking that when I get this under control and get new curtains, I might try baste stitching either plastic or mylar on the hems, like we (well my generation) did with formal dresses to keep the hems clean until you went to the dance.

I like the mat idea. I have also ordered some of those feeding balls for stimulation. I tried to buy him a harness yesterday, but the 'cat' size was too small (and he is at a good weight and I would not call him large) so I am going to try a small dog size. See if walking him will help. And, I have gotten my husband to agree to some rearranging of the furniture to give the female good access to the top of the bookshelves. We need to get a new tower or put in steps somehow so she can get up there.

I have looked into the Feliway fermone scent diffusers and I have heard good things about them. Our house is a mid century ranch with an open design. I would have to spend $100's to get effective coverage of the house. It is on my list but vets and mats etc. are higher up on the priority list ( my husband was laid off as the result of sequestration a few years back, literally the day before his 60th and the economy in our area has never fully bounced back from the crash - but everyone is pretty much in the same boat).

There is a large orange tabby feral who is an uber male in the outside colony. All the cats run when he shows up. He will rub up against your leg and then hiss and growl at you if you so much as think about bending down to pet him. He is neutered but is not one of the cats we did and I am not sure where he came from. My husband is convinced he is Kai's father. I don't know if the time line pans out, but the two are similar.


Spring Break starts this weekend - maybe I can get Kai back into the vet them.

I will let you know next week what progress I have made.

Fuzzycat

 

[moorspede]

I'm sorry about what happened to your husband. I agree, feliway is just too expensive. They do also sell a spray. If you tried that sometime in the future you could spray all Kai's favourite places.

No, it wasn't me who told you that there is a certain amount of time before cats return to pee in a particular spot but it makes sense considering they are marking their territory.

Good luck, I don't envy the battle ahead of you.