cat genetics: guess this litters parents ( tortie, solid black and brown tabby)

[melesine]

I'll post what the mama cats color is by tomorrow when I see her. So far all I know is the kittens are one tortie, one solid black ( possibly a smoke) and one brownish shade tabby. The picture didn't have perfect color. My husband says the tabby kitten is a silver tabby but it looked possibly brownish in the picture. 

 

[maewkaew]

 At least one of the parents is a tabby or torbie,  but  any tabby parent has to be Agouti carrying non- Agouti  (A/a),  since there is a black kitten.  ( in other words both parents have to have non-Agouti,   they are either both A/a,  or  one is A/a and the other a/a. ) 

 At least one parent has the gene for Black  ( B  as opposed to b or b1 .  but probably both are B/B  since chocolate and cinnamon are much less common. )

At least one parent has Dense color (not dilute) and therefore has at least one D, and has given a D to all these kittens since none of them sound like dilutes ( unless you mean the  tortie is blue-cream .  but probably you mean a Tortie with Black and Red.) 

 If the kittens are smoke or silver tabby  , then at least one of the parents is silver or smoke ( has the Inhibitor gene)

One of the parents has black-based color, one has red-based color.  

  so in genetic terms that means that at least one parent has the gene for Red, O, which overrules black-based color.  and at least one parent has the gene for Not Red (o,  which defaults to Black-based color.  .... and the mom could have both ---she  could be O/o --  a tortie or torbie.

As far as the color genetics that is about as much as can be known. 

 

[melesine]

The tortie kitten is not not a blue/cream she has a distinctive black and red shade. Plus I have a mitted ragdoll that is a tortie she has the blue/cream on her body with more distinctive red/black on her points. 

Talked to my husband and he was told the mama is "black and silver" tabby that is long haired. 

I thought it took one parent with the black color gene and one with the red to get tortie kittens so I figured the mom probably has the black and the dad the red ( given that red cats are usually male). 

The possible dilute in the tabby kitten through me off. I'll have to wait until tomorrow when I see the mom and kittens in person. 

I didn't even think about the agouti gene, thanks for mentioning it. So since the mom is a striped tabby and the dad is likely a red tabby that explains the non agouti. 

 

[ldg]

Is this a stray mom? Isn't it possible there are different fathers for the same litter?

 

[maewkaew]

 Yes that totally make sense .  black silver tabby mother x red tabby father could have that litter.  

  IF there was only one sire of the litter, then the black silver tabby and the black (smoke) kittens are males.   since the mother being black silver tabby means the father of the tortie kitten must be red ( or some variation with red-based pigment)   So any female kittens of that pair would have to be torties or torbies.  

 Of course if the mom is a stray there certainly may have been multiple sires. 

I only mentioned dilute since I wasn't totally sure if the tortie was black & red .   Since she IS black and red,   it is impossible to know if either of the parents might carry dilute (d);  we just know they didn't both give it to any of these kittens.   since Dense (D) is dominant, it only takes one copy.   So the sire could also be Cream. 

  So we could only write it D/_  

Mom is A/a B/_  C/_  D/_  I/i  o/o  s/s w/w

With the unknown father,  yes Red tabby is pretty likely.  but there are too many questions to try to write out much of a genotype . 

 Question mark on the Agouti since a cat with red-based pigment will usually show a tabby pattern whether or not they are agouti.   

I am just guessing on  the s and w for the father.    but it is possible he could be red tabby and white  with S/s  and just did not pass on white spotting to any of the kittens.

 It's even possible he is WHITE  but heterozygous for Dominant White.  W/w   and just gave the w ( "not Dominant White")  to each of the kittens. 

He could have silver himself, too. 

Question mark on the C because it's also possible he is a Red Point!  but the kittens would need 2 copies of cs to show it.    or for that matter he could be  red sepia  or red mink.,  though those are even less common. 

 And as I mentioned he could also be Cream . 

 

[melesine]

Is this a stray mom? Isn't it possible there are different fathers for the same litter?

The mom is an outdoor only cat that the owners never spayed. I have another thread in this forum about their story. I'm fostering them and going to get them spayed and neutered and find them forever homes. 

And yes it's entirely possible that there are two fathers as the cat has been outdoors only since they got her. The tabby kitten appears to be quite a bit smaller than the black and tortie kitten, which made me wonder about two fathers. Especially when I didn't know the mothers coloring. 

 

[melesine]

 Yes that totally make sense .  black silver tabby mother x red tabby father could have that litter.  

  IF there was only one sire of the litter, then the black silver tabby and the black (smoke) kittens are males.   since the mother being black silver tabby means the father of the tortie kitten must be red ( or some variation with red-based pigment)   So any female kittens of that pair would have to be torties or torbies.  

 Of course if the mom is a stray there certainly may have been multiple sires. 

I only mentioned dilute since I wasn't totally sure if the tortie was black & red .   Since she IS black and red,   it is impossible to know if either of the parents might carry dilute (d);  we just know they didn't both give it to any of these kittens.   since Dense (D) is dominant, it only takes one copy.   So the sire could also be Cream. 

  So we could only write it D/_  

Mom is A/a B/_  C/_  D/_  I/i  o/o  s/s w/w

With the unknown father,  yes Red tabby is pretty likely.  but there are too many questions to try to write out much of a genotype . 

 Question mark on the Agouti since a cat with red-based pigment will usually show a tabby pattern whether or not they are agouti.   

I am just guessing on  the s and w for the father.    but it is possible he could be red tabby and white  with S/s  and just did not pass on white spotting to any of the kittens.

 It's even possible he is WHITE  but heterozygous for Dominant White.  W/w   and just gave the w ( "not Dominant White")  to each of the kittens. 

He could have silver himself, too. 

Question mark on the C because it's also possible he is a Red Point!  but the kittens would need 2 copies of cs to show it.    or for that matter he could be  red sepia  or red mink.,  though those are even less common. 

 And as I mentioned he could also be Cream . 

Wow, thanks for writing it all out. Ever since I got cats again a couple years ago I've read up here and there on cat genetics but there are so many different combinations that at some point it starts to get jumbled in my head. 

The owner told my husband she thinks the father is a calico as it's the only outside cat she sees but "he" isn't friendly, and she only sees the cat from afar so I don't see how she can assume it's an intact male, especially when most calicos are female anyway. 

 

[maewkaew]

Wow, thanks for writing it all out. Ever since I got cats again a couple years ago I've read up here and there on cat genetics but there are so many different combinations that at some point it starts to get jumbled in my head. 

  Yes there are lots of combinations and possibilities!     but   I can tell you understand some of it because you were right that a red tabby would be a likely possibility for the father.   If you're into learning this stuff you will gradually pick up on more of it. 

 You might be interested in this link. with a feline genetics primer... the site also has a much more detailed article, and  free phenotype predictor software.  http://www.tenset.co.uk/catgen/indexus.html. 

And here is a genetic loci table http://tkeiger.com/cat_info/genetic_table.html

The owner told my husband she thinks the father is a calico as it's the only outside cat she sees but "he" isn't friendly, and she only sees the cat from afar so I don't see how she can assume it's an intact male, especially when most calicos are female anyway. 

And not only are there very few male calicos but  probably half of the few that exist are sterile.!       It depends on the reason they are a male calico.   There are some who are fertile.  so it's not impossible but statistically it's very unlikely.     I agree it is probably a female,  and the sire is some other cat ( or cats) she hasn't seen. 

 

[melesine]

Tenset is the site I've been reading but there is a lot of information to absorb there. I've mostly just focused on basic core colors so far, I especially like their eye color section. I get lost when we get to shaded and smoked and the whole tabby vs solid genes. I spent a lot of time there before trying to decode my tortie ragdolls genes.

 

[melesine]

Ok I did more digging around the internet and I found this cat coat color genetics poster that makes it so much easier for me. I find the tabby colorings confusing since they have multi shades in their coats. http://felinedocs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/catcoatcolor1.jpeg  So with tabby you go by the darkest color? And can confirm with the paw pads and eye rims? I'm going to have to give the 2 female kittens a second look. 

 

[maewkaew]

  Oh yes!   I have seen that chart but had forgot where it was.   I haven't really looked at the details of it but it sure looks cool. 

Yes tabbies can be confusing because of the variation in color on the agouti hairs.   It is correct, you go by the darkest markings. on a tabby.   and can look at the eyeliner  and the paw pads.   also the nose is usually a sort of salmon  / brick color, outlined in the base color.   but that can be a bit hard to tell.  

One of the confusing things is that   what is normally called a "Brown Tabby"  is really genetically a Black Tabby.   but since the lighter parts of the coat often are brownish,  it just became called Brown Tabby.   TICA  actually officially uses both terms... some people in the leadership would like to just switch to Black since it makes more sense with the genetics and would make that easier to understand.   but people are attached to the traditional term ,   so what they have done is use both,  writing it for example as "Brown (Black) Mackerel Tabby" .

Hey if we were really to simplify all the color terms we would have to call Seal Points "Black Points".  since they are genetically a black cat with 2 copies of "cs" ( pointed) .  

   If there are two female kittens  and one is a tortie and the other is entirely black-based pigment,  then there must be two fathers....  unless that really is a fertile male calico ! 

 

[melesine]

The vet said that the tabby kitten is also a female tortie. Her coloring is very confusing to me because while she has what appears to be black or close to black ( but I've never seen a chocolate in person) as her darkest color she has very light silvery or white as the lightest shade and I did see a pale warm tone, but in my mind I was thinking it was a light tan. She has darker and lighter tabby areas of her body. The chest, belly and legs appear to be blue with silver, while her face, shoulders and back look black and sliver and then there are areas of the tabby on her body where she is has tan instead. 

Here is a facial shot of her

 

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• melesine
• Apr 19, 2013

Here is a better one of her side and legs 

IMG_0587.JPG

• melesine
• Apr 20, 2013

The picture looks like it's overexposed or has uneven lighting, but she really does have that drastic difference between her face and back vs legs. After I looked at her closed I do see small spots of pale orange ( apricot maybe?) on her lower back near her tail and on her legs. But her legs are almost a blue and silver otherwise. 

Her paw pads and eye rims are not black. Her eye rims look like a warm dark brown and where her paw pads are dark, they are like hmmm maybe mahogany or red wine? Not the same color as my adult solid black male or even her black brother. The tortie kitten has the same color rims and paw pads.

I should probably find better ways or identifying them. It's just that the one girl was obviously a tortie because she has larger patches of red and the one we call tabby has more defined tabby stripes than the the tortie.

 

[maewkaew]

Ah,  so this ( EXTREMELY CUTE) little girl looks to be a Silver Mc Torbie!  ( Torbie = Tortie Tabby.  also called a "Patched Tabby")  So   that means it can be just one father.   At least the coat looks silver to me in that 2nd picture.   and you said the mom is a Silver Tabby.   so basically kitten would be same as the mom, but she also has red.     but you have the kitten there now and can look at the roots. 

It's interesting how torties and torbies  can vary so much in the distribution of red and black,  as the red gene sort of turns on and off during development.   so there can be cats with more red-based color on the head than on the body.   The tone of the red can vary... for some reason there are sometimes Torties/ Torbies with very black markings combined with a red that does not get very deep.. and silver will often make it look lighter too. 

I would always go by the darkest hairs to tell the base color.   and in a Tortie or Torbie I would use the darkest of the eumelanistic ( black based) color. 

I feel like I kind of screwed up by agreeing with that statement you had found about paw pads,  without adding a caveat that it can vary --even in solids.  but  I think more so in tabbies.   I mentioned about the nose being reddish in tabbies;  well apparently something similar can affect paw pad color , though not usually anywhere near to the same extent as the nose.  Even in breed standards ,  brown (black) tabbies often have color of paw pads specified as either black or brown.  ( In Black Silvers , I think the standards usually call for black  / charcoal,  but that's because they are breeding for very high contrast on the tabby pattern, so probably the darker paw pads go along with that, so it's the ideal.   In a random-bred cat there would naturally be more variation.  )

These paw pads look dark enough to me I would classify them with black.   so it just agrees with the darkest hairs being black. 

The coat itself,  in that 2nd photo almost looks more blueish!     It's probably just the different lighting in the 2 photos,   or  just that the markings aren't very clear at this age. It would be impossible to have the head Brown (Black) and body Blue. (Well, almost impossible. Impossible by normal genetics.  It could happen as  the result of 2 embryos that fused into one!   but I wouldn't assume that to be the case) 

 

[melesine]

I think the owner was the one that originally said the mom was silver tabby? I can't remember. Neither of us saw the mom until the day of pick up. She isn't a silver tabby. Her fur does have white tips though it is not the same color from root to tip. Her hair is longer, she has ear tufts, toe tufts, britches and long hair on her belly and tail. She also has white socks, chest and nose. Her coat is not in great shape probably due to her malnutrition. She weighs less than 7 pounds and from what the owner said I doubt she is even a year old.

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• melesine
• Apr 21, 2013

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• melesine
• Apr 21, 2013

 

[maewkaew]

 Yes,  I see in your earlier post  you said your husband was just told the mom was silver.   and he thought the kitten was silver.  The kitten does look silver in that picture. 

 You're right, the mom definitely isn't Silver Tabby, she   looks like a Brown Mc Tabby and White ,but with a lot of ticking.  Very pretty girl despite not being in such good shape.  She's kind of bedraggled looking but yet she has an elegance about her, and  I bet she will eventually look stunning with some good nutrition.    Lovely head and eyes.  

 

[natalie_ca]

I'll post what the mama cats color is by tomorrow when I see her. So far all I know is the kittens are one tortie, one solid black ( possibly a smoke) and one brownish shade tabby.

Female cats can become pregnant by more than one male at the same time, so it's possible that the kittens could have different fathers.

Cats are induced ovulators.  Interacting with a male cat causes an egg to be released, so it's not unusual for each available tom to be responsible for a kit in a litter.  The way it works is that when a female cat is in heat, she will seek a male.  The act of mating will stimulate her to ovulate multiple eggs.  These eggs are then each individually fertilized by a different sperm.  This may be from one or more males.  The fertilized eggs will then spread out and implant and develop to term together.

 

[eb24]

Just have to say I tried to read through this thread and I literally can't understand a word you two are talking about! 

 

Genetics is absolutely fascinating but ssssoooo complex. And, I really, really, really hated my science classes when I was a kid. Hopefully neither of you will be administering a test on this later!!! 

 

[melesine]

Just to post an update now that I've had the kittens for a few weeks. The little tabby kitten ( tortie tabby) is starting to get the ticking like her mom has. She still is lighter color on her legs, feet and belly.