Cat colour genetics

[northernglow]

Not sure about that since choc is different to brown
Will have to pull out my tawny reports when I get home

This is copy+paste from their site:

Brown (chocolate and cinnamon)

The Brown (tyrosinase-related protein-1, TYRP1) gene affects the amount of black (eumelanin) pigment produced. Mutations responsible for brown and cinnamon colors in the cat have been identified in this gene. The wild-type B allele produces normal, black coloration. The b allele produces the brown (chocolate) phenotype and the b^l  allele produces a light brown or cinnamon phenotype. These form an "allelic series" with B dominant to b, and b dominant to b^l.

 

[orientalslave]

I don't know how long ago you had them tested.  If recently I'd go back to them and ask what they mean - since a cat (like humans) has pairs of chromosones it's not possible for it to carry two alleles on the same location.  I'm sure the test results are correct and the cat(s) carries cinnamon.

 

[northernglow]

I don't know how long ago you had them tested.  If recently I'd go back to them and ask what they mean - since a cat (like humans) has pairs of chromosones it's not possible for it to carry two alleles on the same location.  I'm sure the test results are correct and the cat(s) carries cinnamon.

It was 2 years ago. I think we shall see if the mating with the choco stud was or will be successful, if she has choco kittens, she's a choco carrier, if not, then likely the cinnamon carrier. I just mostly want blacks so either way is fine with me. Her seal brother was tested by the breeder back then, he's a choco carrier. Cinnamon is still fairly rare in Brits, so to my knowledge none of her siblings have produced cinnamon offspring. I could always test her again.

 

[orientalslave]

You can't tell with that mating.  You need to mate her with a cinnamon or fawn and even then the genetic fairy might wave her wand so that only blacks appear...   Even if the chocolate carries cinnamon you only have a 25% chance (if the gene fairy plays fair) of a cinnamon or fawn being born.

Retesting is the sure way to find out, and ask what they mean if something so bizarre comes along again.

You can use the Langford near Bristol in the UK for testing as well as UC Davies - there is a bit more paperwork to do than for us UK people, and no freepost address but I got the result within the week for Lola.  It was cheaper than UC Davies as well:

http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/laboratory_owners.htm

BTW this page explains the results - scroll down for the cinnamon test:

http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/lab_pcr_coat_colours_basic.htm

 

[missymotus]

Trying to word this without insulting you NG, but are you sure you read the results correctly?

 

[callista]

What about chinchilla and smoke coat colors? Are they a separate gene too?

 

[northernglow]

Trying to word this without insulting you NG, but are you sure you read the results correctly?

 It's kinda hard to get offended if I simply don't know enough of the subject, for example in this case cinnamon is fairly new to Brits so I haven't had to deal with it. The test result says from word to word "B/bl Full color, carrying brown and cinnamon", so it is English which isn't my native language, maybe I am understanding it wrong? It probably should say "Full color, carrying cinnamon" and the brown shouldn't have been mentioned. She was also tested for dilution, the result was "D/d Full color, carrying dilute" which I assume means that she carries dilution (which is possible, her sister is blue for example). I could post her pedigree here, but I don't think that's much of use?

 

[northernglow]

What about chinchilla and smoke coat colors? Are they a separate gene too?

They both have the inhibitor gene (silver), but chinchilla is agouti and smoke is non-agouti.

 

[aliencat]

My boys side was solid black (possibly smoke?) and his mother was a black tortie with white.

My boy is blue and white.

Does that mean that both parents have 1 dilute gene?

 

[missymotus]

 It's kinda hard to get offended if I simply don't know enough of the subject, for example in this case cinnamon is fairly new to Brits so I haven't had to deal with it. The test result says from word to word "B/bl Full color, carrying brown and cinnamon", so it is English which isn't my native language, maybe I am understanding it wrong? It probably should say "Full color, carrying cinnamon" and the brown shouldn't have been mentioned. She was also tested for dilution, the result was "D/d Full color, carrying dilute" which I assume means that she carries dilution (which is possible, her sister is blue for example). I could post her pedigree here, but I don't think that's much of use?

I figured you wouldn't be offended

I think there's only one breeder here doing Cinnamon, imported from the UK I believe.

Seems you are reading the result correctly, they tend to write the results plainly so carrying brown and cinnamon cannot be misunderstood. You could always email them with a copy asking if it should just ready cinnamon.

 

[northernglow]

You can't tell with that mating.  You need to mate her with a cinnamon or fawn and even then the genetic fairy might wave her wand so that only blacks appear...   Even if the chocolate carries cinnamon you only have a 25% chance (if the gene fairy plays fair) of a cinnamon or fawn being born.

Now I'm confused.

 So if she, a black cat, is mated with a chocolate cat, I can't tell from the results if she carries chocolate? To my understanding she can't have chocolate kittens if she doesn't carry chocolate (of course there's always a chance they'd all be black or blue). I think the error in the test result is the "carries brown (meaning chocolate)" part, as it was "B/bl and not B/b? I'm not expecting cinnamon kittens from this mating, the stud doesn't carry it. (The chocolate stud was chosen because he's a point carrier, my female is point and I was hoping there's a small chance for pointed kittens from this combination).

*eta* She had an ultrasound done today, no kittens. But that's not a surprise (stud's young and new at his "job" and Luna's heat wasn't very strong and she can be quite intimidating to an inexperienced male). We'll try again with the same stud from her next heat. Wish us luck.

 

[missymotus]

black not carrying to a chocolate will produce black kittens carrying chocolate.

black carrying chocolate to chocolate will produce black carrying chocolate and chocolate

 

[northernglow]

I figured you wouldn't be offended

I think there's only one breeder here doing Cinnamon, imported from the UK I believe.

Seems you are reading the result correctly, they tend to write the results plainly so carrying brown and cinnamon cannot be misunderstood. You could always email them with a copy asking if it should just ready cinnamon.

We have only one cinnamon Brit breeder in Finland to my knowledge, and they are new at it too (they used to mostly breed solid blues and lilacs), I've only once seen an actual cinnamon Brit in a show, he was a bicolor imported from Sweden.

I actually have other things to ask from them too.. I had ordered the longhair and PKD-tests for my lilac point, but he got sick so suddenly and had to be pts so I never sent his samples in, I did pay for them. I just couldn't deal with things related to him for a looong time so I never contacted them about it (and it was 2 years ago). Maybe they'd be willing to make a few arrangements so I could switch the cat who was supposed to be tested and test Luna's daughter instead. I should test her anyway out of curiosity, she won't be carrying anything from her father's side (just plain black that line), so everything she carries comes from my confusing case Luna.

 

[missymotus]

I did pay for them. I just couldn't deal with things related to him for a looong time so I never contacted them about it (and it was 2 years ago). Maybe they'd be willing to make a few arrangements so I could switch the cat who was supposed to be tested and test Luna's daughter instead.

You could at least try, it would be in your file that it's paid but not actually done. 

 

[orientalslave]

Now I'm confused.

 So if she, a black cat, is mated with a chocolate cat, I can't tell from the results if she carries chocolate? To my understanding she can't have chocolate kittens if she doesn't carry chocolate (of course there's always a chance they'd all be black or blue). I think the error in the test result is the "carries brown (meaning chocolate)" part, as it was "B/bl and not B/b? I'm not expecting cinnamon kittens from this mating, the stud doesn't carry it. (The chocolate stud was chosen because he's a point carrier, my female is point and I was hoping there's a small chance for pointed kittens from this combination).

...

B/bl is black carrying cinnamon - it's the same as Lola's result.  B/b is Black carrying chocolate.  You may well get chocolate kittens regardless of what she is carrying, unless the gene fairy is playing unfair, ditto points.  If the fairy is playing it straight you should get 1/4 chocolate not pointed, 1/2 chocolate pointed, 1/4 black, 1/4 seal pointed.  Of course that's an average and she might not have 4 kittens.

From the UC Davies web page on colour testing:

Results reported as:

B/B: Full color, cat does not carry brown or cinnamon

B/b: Full color, carrier of brown

B/b^l: Full color, carrier of cinnamon

b/b: Brown

b/b^l: Brown, carrier of cinnamon

b^l/b^l: Cinnamon

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorcat.php

 

[duckdodgers]

I've just been loosely following this, and have a few questions about cat colors.  I understand that there are three base colors- black, cinnamon, and chocolate.  I have a fair knowledge of genetics so can follow what is going on, but I can't really figure out what exactly these colors mean.  Obviously, a black cat is a black cat.  A google search tells me that chocolate is a brown cat.  Looking up cinnamon cats though, I get picture results of anything from what looks to be an orange tabby to a light brown color.  I guess what I'm asking is, what is a cinnamon cat? 

Also, how common are chocolate and cinnamon cats in the general population?  In the general cat population I generally don't see solid brown cats running around.  Mostly I see your average black, brown tabby, etc.  Is this because chocolate and cinnamon are not as common in the cat population, or is there something more complicated going on? 

I guess this could go with the question above, but how does the agouti gene affect this?  From what I understand a black cat with agouti gives you the generic brown tabby that is so common.  What do you get with a chocolate tabby?  Another brown tabby, or is it somehow different in appearance?  Are the stripes brown as opposed to black? 

Finally, I get how the red gene works- males can be either red or not red given that it's a sex-linked trait.  Females can be red with two of the alleles, tortie with one, and no red at all with none.  There is a feral cat population on my college campus (the one that Stella came from), and I occasionally see tortie cats.  Given this, I would expect to see the occasional orange tabby.  This has not been the case- unless the orange tabbies keep themselves better hidden than the other cats, they are not there.  Why is this?  Is it just coincidence that no red males happened to appear, is natural selection preying upon them, or is there a reason why red cats are not being born?  Just something I've wondered about- most of the cats are brown tabby, but black and tortie are also present in the population.

Kind of some scattered questions, but I've been a'wondering!

 

[northernglow]

B/bl is black carrying cinnamon - it's the same as Lola's result.  B/b is Black carrying chocolate.  You may well get chocolate kittens regardless of what she is carrying, unless the gene fairy is playing unfair, ditto points.  If the fairy is playing it straight you should get 1/4 chocolate not pointed, 1/2 chocolate pointed, 1/4 black, 1/4 seal pointed.  Of course that's an average and she might not have 4 kittens.

From the UC Davies web page on colour testing:

Results reported as:

B/B: Full color, cat does not carry brown or cinnamon

B/b: Full color, carrier of brown

B/b^l: Full color, carrier of cinnamon

b/b: Brown

b/b^l: Brown, carrier of cinnamon

b^l/b^l: Cinnamon

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorcat.php

So you're saying that I can get chocolate kittens from a non-chocolate carrier? 

 I guess what I'm asking is, what is a cinnamon cat? 

Also, how common are chocolate and cinnamon cats in the general population?  In the general cat population I generally don't see solid brown cats running around.  Mostly I see your average black, brown tabby, etc.  Is this because chocolate and cinnamon are not as common in the cat population, or is there something more complicated going on? 

I guess this could go with the question above, but how does the agouti gene affect this?  From what I understand a black cat with agouti gives you the generic brown tabby that is so common.  What do you get with a chocolate tabby?  Another brown tabby, or is it somehow different in appearance?  Are the stripes brown as opposed to black? 

Cinnamon is a warm light brownish color, like this: https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/424343_453160674716733_2022093400_n.jpg

How common? I've seen few chocolate moggies, but never cinnamons. They do exist but aren't very common. 

An agouti chocolate gives you a chocolate tabby, the pattern is chocolate brown instead of black. Like these (ignore the pointed kitten): http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/54364_501152109905829_1583102797_o.jpg

 

[sohni]

Cool.. my friend has a female cat that is exactly like those kittens. I have rarely found that exact colour outside a show hall.

 

[orientalslave]

So you're saying that I can get chocolate kittens from a non-chocolate carrier? 

Yes.  Breed a cinnamon female with a chocolate male who doens't carry cinnamon and all her kittens will be chocolate carrying cinnamon.  Same of course if the stud is cinnamon and the female is chocolate except you don't see the contrast of the female against the kittens.

Black is dominant over brown/chocolate which is dominant over cinnamon.

 

[callista]

Red is a completely different gene than the black/brown/cinnamon, then? I know red is sex-linked and the others aren't. So what happens if a cat has, for example, red on an X chromosome, plus black/black? Can cinnamon be solid rather than a tabby pattern? Is there an independent gene for "this cat will be tabby", or is it connected to coat colors?