cardiomyopathy- vet said to start giving cat grain foods

[sophiarcl]

Does anyone know if this is sound advice?
Vet said to get my cat off of grain free foods bc cats need taurine- and that they need grains or else it can be the start of cardiomyopathy.
I told her the first five ingredients has taurine as a top ingredient. And she kept saying to get off of grain free.

Note that this is also a different vet I’m seeing, the one vet I used to see (she doesn’t work at the vet clinic anymore) would not say anything about changing my cats food

 

[Joxer]

Does anyone know if this is sound advice?
Vet said to get my cat off of grain free foods bc cats need taurine- and that they need grains or else it can be the start of cardiomyopathy.
I told her the first five ingredients has taurine as a top ingredient. And she kept saying to get off of grain free.

Taurine is typically added to cat food. More expensive cat foods tend to contain more taurine (the exact percentage is usually stated on the label). I am unaware of any association between taurine and grain content. The best natural sources of taurine are animal-based protein sources.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I have read about what your vet is saying, but I am pretty sure that all cat foods, grain free or otherwise, have taurine added to them - as mentioned above, in order to meet AAFCO regulations. You can ask your vet what the difference is in the taurine in the grain vs. non-grain foods, as it would seem they must think there is.

I believe a test can be run to check a cat's blood taurine level. If your cat is not taurine deficient, it would likely not be an issue. If s/he is, a taurine supplement can be used without changing a cat's food, especially if they like what they are currently eating.

Diet-associated dilated cardiomyopathy: The cause is not yet known but it hasn’t gone away – Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School (tufts.edu)

 

[fionasmom]

I have an HCM boy and both the vet and cardiologist told me to get him off of grain free food. I am only adding this because it coincides with the advice that you were given; however, while it is generally accepted in the dog world, it is not as accepted in the cat world. Which, of course, leaves you without a definite answer.

Jamie loves grain free food, in particular Applaws. On their website, they state the following:

Taurine is a natural amino acid only found in animal-based meat protein. Many other cat foods have to add taurine to their recipes as they contain very little meat. Not true for Applaws wet cat food. With up to 80% prime meat content, Taurine is naturally occurring so you won’t see it listed on our ingredients.

 

[IndyJones]

Grain free is definatly an issue with some dogs but cats are litteraly a completly different animal. They aren't designed to process grains though a little bit can help with number two. Heart conditions are usualy genetic or aquired. Aquired heart conditions are typicaly secondary to another condition such as hyperthyroidism or diabetes genetic ones show up as early as birth.

 

[IndyJones]

If it helps, Kabuto has chf and has never been on grain free food. Indy is 5 and has been on grain free since she was a kitten and her heart is great, not even a murmer. I really do think genetics plays a far bigger roll than food does.

 

[Joxer]

I'm not seeing how there could be a positive correlation between grains and taurine, given that grains are a very poor source of taurine.

It's hard to imagine that a corn-based kibble with some taurine sprayed onto it during the manufacturing process is as nutritious as a cat food with some sort of meat as the first ingredient. The wild ancestors of cats did not eat corn (or other grains). It's just like how a person will be healthier eating actual fruits and vegetables, rather than chowing down on a bag of potato chips followed by a multivitamin pill.

 

[iPappy]

Does anyone know if this is sound advice?
Vet said to get my cat off of grain free foods bc cats need taurine- and that they need grains or else it can be the start of cardiomyopathy.
I told her the first five ingredients has taurine as a top ingredient. And she kept saying to get off of grain free.

Note that this is also a different vet I’m seeing, the one vet I used to see (she doesn’t work at the vet clinic anymore) would not say anything about changing my cats food

I wholeheartedly agree that cats need taurine. I do not agree that they need grains or else it will lead to heart disease. I have 3 cats over the age of 15 that have not eaten grains as a normal part of their diet for the majority of their lives, and none of them have even so much as a heart murmur. They don't, however, have a lot of meat protein replaced by peas, legumes, and tapioca which seems to be the issue with the problematic foods with DCM in dogs, as it's assumed those ingredients in excess block the absorption of taurine.

 

[Joxer]

I wholeheartedly agree that cats need taurine. I do not agree that they need grains or else it will lead to heart disease. I have 3 cats over the age of 15 that have not eaten grains as a normal part of their diet for the majority of their lives, and none of them have even so much as a heart murmur. They don't, however, have a lot of meat protein replaced by peas, legumes, and tapioca which seems to be the issue with the problematic foods with DCM in dogs, as it's assumed those ingredients in excess block the absorption of taurine.

If there's any research saying that pea protein is bad for cats, I'd be interested in seeing that. A lot of grain-free foods include pea protein, and I wouldn't want to feed my cats something that would interfere with taurine absorption. All of my cats have been fed a 100% grain-free diet (mix of dry and canned foods). One out of four developed heart disease around age 8. The others never did. The foods I buy for them have 1.5 - 2 x the AAFCO minimum required taurine content, but if there's an absorption issue, that would be concerning.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Peas are not a complete protein for cats because they do not contain the essential amino acids that cats need. That includes taurine as one of those missing amino acids, since taurine is sourced from meat. They are probably added to supplement other proteins because they are generally cheaper than meat-based ones. Regardless, if the cat food meets the AAFCO requirements for taurine, the amount of pea protein that has been added is not an issue.

Taurine is obtained from animal proteins; there is very little of it, if any, in plants of any kind. I think that has essentially already been said. So, the bottom line is this -
Test the cat for a taurine deficiency and be done with it. They are either deficient or they are not. But adding grains to their food isn't going to increase their taurine level.

 

[iPappy]

If there's any research saying that pea protein is bad for cats, I'd be interested in seeing that. A lot of grain-free foods include pea protein, and I wouldn't want to feed my cats something that would interfere with taurine absorption. All of my cats have been fed a 100% grain-free diet (mix of dry and canned foods). One out of four developed heart disease around age 8. The others never did. The foods I buy for them have 1.5 - 2 x the AAFCO minimum required taurine content, but if there's an absorption issue, that would be concerning.

The problem is the DCM studies done on dogs had no real answers, only speculations. My feeling is peas and pea proteins aren't necessarily bad UNLESS they're in the top 4-5 ingredients, and are split. I would be fine feeding a food that contained these things, so long as they weren't the main protein source and they weren't split into looking like less when in reality, it's actually more if that makes sense.

 

[Joxer]

The problem is the DCM studies done on dogs had no real answers, only speculations. My feeling is peas and pea proteins aren't necessarily bad UNLESS they're in the top 4-5 ingredients, and are split. I would be fine feeding a food that contained these things, so long as they weren't the main protein source and they weren't split into looking like less when in reality, it's actually more if that makes sense.

Looking at the ingredients in the canned food that I feed to my cats:

Chicken, chicken broth, chicken liver, whitefish, chicken hearts, pea protein, natural flavor, pea fiber...

So pea protein is ingredient #6. What do you think?

 

[iPappy]

Personally, if they happily eat it and are healthy otherwise, I'd use it. I do like a rotational diet if possible, just to help fill in those nutritional gaps if any exist in one flavor or brand.
(Just as a disclaimer: I am not a vet, have no nutritional training, etc. Just a cat lover!)

 

[FeralHearts]

I'm going to chime in a little here as I have a cat with HCM and another that may have the start of it. (Cardiologist is unsure and we are watching.) I'll say I am not a vet or a nutritionist either.

Cats in the wild do get some grains from the pray they eat. That's kind of telling in a way. So I've never understood the freak out about going the grain free. (other than really all the toxins that are going into all food lately from people messing with mother nature.) I think personally one of the biggest issues with the whole grain free things is the number of issues with constipation we are seeing in cats.

Not sure of the Taurine coloration to be honest and I too wouldn't think it would be a massive source but I don't know. That being said - back in the day grains were used a lot as filler in food so it was often over placed in food as a way to cut costs. So TBH I think they've gone from one extreme to another. Balance is key.

I have never understood the "grain free" craze. It almost seems like the pet food companies keep translating animals food with people trends.Which is quite frankly - insane. EG: I see Cranberry stuff for cats everywhere and want to scream because from what I have learned - they can't digest them. For UTIs D-mannose is used because that is the active ingredient in the cranberries and cats can digest that.

In saying all this. I have learnt Taurine is important, very important. If the vet feels that kitty would benefit from a bit more have they discussed perhaps added a tiny amount to kitties food?

 

[Alldara]

Does anyone know if this is sound advice?
Vet said to get my cat off of grain free foods bc cats need taurine- and that they need grains or else it can be the start of cardiomyopathy.
I told her the first five ingredients has taurine as a top ingredient. And she kept saying to get off of grain free.

Note that this is also a different vet I’m seeing, the one vet I used to see (she doesn’t work at the vet clinic anymore) would not say anything about changing my cats food

Yes. This makes total sense to me.

The grain free foods contain peas, legumes, etc. In recent years they completed studies and found that legumes and peas cause heart issues in dogs. It is suspected that they cause the same in cats and studies are underway.

A vet might be willing to not suggest changing foods for a healthy cat, but for a cat with heart issues, they should not be on foods that could worsen those issues.

Magnus Bean has a congenital heart murmur and the vet did not want him on Arcana anymore even as a treat.


Pet Foods Potentially Linked to Heart Disease in Dogs and Cats


This website will be updated as the science is updated: What's in My Cat's Food?: Designer Diets, Grain Free Diets | VCA | VCA Canada Animal Hospitals

 

[Alldara]

Here's the budding research on dogs:
Studies need follow ups and repeats before anything will be fully concluded.
Peas in Dog Food May Be Linked to DCM Heart Disease, Says New Study

update that exact cause is still unknown, and there may be a safe amount of peas/legumes for dogs. However, it also notes that the grain free foods are causing issues in breeds with no genetic predisposition to heart disease.: FDA Investigates Potential Link Between Diet & Heart Disease in Dogs

longest study to date that I could find for dog was only 20 weeks in length. May not be long enough to know but may show short term use is safe: ‘Peas of Mind’: Pulse Ingredients in Dog Food Not Linked to Heart Problems, Says New U of G Research

However, we then have another few studies that show that there was DCM like changes within 28 days with other studies showing that return to a grain diet can start healing.: FDA pet food investigation: What to know about diet-related heart disease in dogs

This is a true example of research unfolding before our eyes. It will be some time before we know 100% what the cause is and how to prevent it. So we can't really say that it's causing x and that's what's happening with your cat. We can just confirm that it's sound advice from your vet not to be feeding a cat with heart symptoms one of the grain free foods.

 

[Joxer]

Here's the budding research on dogs:
Studies need follow ups and repeats before anything will be fully concluded.
Peas in Dog Food May Be Linked to DCM Heart Disease, Says New Study

update that exact cause is still unknown, and there may be a safe amount of peas/legumes for dogs. However, it also notes that the grain free foods are causing issues in breeds with no genetic predisposition to heart disease.: FDA Investigates Potential Link Between Diet & Heart Disease in Dogs

longest study to date that I could find for dog was only 20 weeks in length. May not be long enough to know but may show short term use is safe: ‘Peas of Mind’: Pulse Ingredients in Dog Food Not Linked to Heart Problems, Says New U of G Research

However, we then have another few studies that show that there was DCM like changes within 28 days with other studies showing that return to a grain diet can start healing.: FDA pet food investigation: What to know about diet-related heart disease in dogs

This is a true example of research unfolding before our eyes. It will be some time before we know 100% what the cause is and how to prevent it. So we can't really say that it's causing x and that's what's happening with your cat. We can just confirm that it's sound advice from your vet not to be feeding a cat with heart symptoms one of the grain free foods.

Checking out the second link you posted, we see that only 1-2% of total heart disease reports were in cats (the rest were in dogs). The number of feline cases were in the single digits. Given that there are almost as many cats as dogs in the USA, this suggests that heart disease risk from pea consumption is a far greater threat to dogs than to cats, and may not be a significant cause of disease in cats at all.

I feed a grain-free diet to my cats, not because I think grains are so much worse than legumes, but because the foods with grains tend to have more grains (as a percentage of the food) than the grain-free foods have peas and such. I don't want to feed corn or peas to my cats, but the foods with corn typically list it high in the ingredient list, while the grain-free foods typically list peas lower down in the ingredients.

I believe that AAFCO simply analyzes foods for their nutrient content, but not for how well those nutrients are absorbed, and there are probably a lot of less studied nutrients that they don't test for at all. AAFCO stamps its seal of approval on very low quality cat foods, loaded with artificial colors and flavors, and consisting of ground corn and chicken byproduct meal as the first two ingredients, with some taurine and vitamins sprayed on during the manufacturing process. AAFCO also sets a minimum phosphorous content but otherwise does not require disclosure of phosphorous content, which is extremely illogical and frustrating for anyone whose cats have kidney disease (to which a high-phosphorous diet is a contributor).

I don't trust the FDA much more than AAFCO. As just one example of industry capture at that organization, for decades FDA advised the American public that "moderate" alcohol consumption makes people healthier than not drinking at all. We now know (and even the CDC confirms) that alcohol is harmful in even small amounts, and no amount of drinking is "healthy". The earlier studies on which the FDA relied for its recommendations were funded by the alcoholic beverage industry.

All of which is to say that I think feline nutrition is one of those areas in which cat owners should rely on their own judgment, impartial research, and basic knowledge of biology, rather than trusting AAFCO or FDA (although if I owned dogs rather than cats, I probably would steer clear of peas based on the FDA reports). I think it's a good idea to look for the AAFCO endorsement on cat food, but it's a bad idea to assume that two cat foods, with wildly different ingredients, are equally nutritious just because both of them meet AAFCO guidelines (not that you were saying this; it's more a response to the veterinary advice that I've received about feline nutrition over the years; I get the impression that nutrition education is not a priority in vet school).

If you or anyone else has a recommendation for a dry cat food that's essentially free of grains or peas, I'd love to hear it. I think that canned food is generally better for my cats, but Casper greatly prefers dry food, and at his age (16 years) I'm more concerned about making sure he's eating and not losing weight, rather than making sure he eats what he should be eating.

 

[Caspers Human]

Vet said to get my cat off of grain free foods

When somebody tells you something that you don't believe is true just say, "Hmm... That's interesting! I'd like to read more about it." Then ask them for the title of a book or a citation from some research paper that talks about it. If the other person starts hemming and hawing around or giving you BS answers, you'll know that they are the one who's full of BS.

If they do give you some good references then you'll have something good to read and learn about how to take care of your cats.

 

[Alldara]

Mostly my post was just to tell you that your vet has sound reason to give you the advice

Cats are generally under-vetted. So the reports for cats are going to be lower. Further, as mentioned what I posted was the research for dogs as the research for cats is not yet published. Vets may have access to see some of the ongoing studies and know preliminary results. They'll also likely have internal numbers.

I do not have a recommendation for food free of grains and peas as I do not feed grain free. I will be sticking with regular cat food that contains rice and wheat until the VCA updates their notes. I will not risk Magnus's heart worsening over misguided "health" advice with no research to back it (peas and legumes) that is new, comparatively, on the market.

Right now as there's minimal published research we are left to rely on what's available. So I'll trust the food that's been around a long time rather than the newer grain free foods. I did the whole grain-free with Lily and Nobel and didn't find any benefits. It didn't prevent any of the issues I was told it would and there's no longitudinal peer reviewed research to back up grain free diets so I'm happy to save myself the headache.

 

[Joxer]

Mostly my post was just to tell you that your vet has sound reason to give you the advice

Cats are generally under-vetted. So the reports for cats are going to be lower. Further, as mentioned what I posted was the research for dogs as the research for cats is not yet published. Vets may have access to see some of the ongoing studies and know preliminary results. They'll also likely have internal numbers.

I do not have a recommendation for food free of grains and peas as I do not feed grain free. I will be sticking with regular cat food that contains rice and wheat until the VCA updates their notes. I will not risk Magnus's heart worsening over misguided "health" advice with no research to back it (peas and legumes) that is new, comparatively, on the market.

Right now as there's minimal published research we are left to rely on what's available. So I'll trust the food that's been around a long time rather than the newer grain free foods. I did the whole grain-free with Lily and Nobel and didn't find any benefits. It didn't prevent any of the issues I was told it would and there's no longitudinal peer reviewed research to back up grain free diets so I'm happy to save myself the headache.

VCA's current advice on the subject:

What's in My Cat's Food?: Designer Diets, Grain Free Diets | VCA | VCA Animal Hospitals

Designer diets target feline nutritional needs but there's no evidence they're healthier than traditional diets. Learn more at VCA.

vcahospitals.com

It's interesting. One thing that's clear is that cats' nutritional needs are very different from those of dogs. I don't think we can extrapolate from dog studies at all.

Ceteris paribus, it sounds like grains might be better than peas. Maybe I should transition my cats from:

Beyond Grain Free Chicken with Egg Dry Cat Food | Purina

Try Purina Beyond grain free white meat chicken with egg dry cat food. Made with high quality, natural ingredients that gives nutrients your cat needs. Try it today!

www.purina.com

to:

Beyond Chicken & Oat Meal Natural Dry Cat Food | Purina

Purina Beyond white meat chicken and whole oat meal dry cat food offers your cat a quality, natural meal made with real salmon. Help your cat live a healthy life.

www.purina.com

With the dry food, I think that I got in the grain-free habit just because I was hoping that the grains would be replaced by more animal protein sources. It seems instead like I just substituted peas for barley and oatmeal, which is not what I thought I was doing. I don't see how any of these plants make sense in a cat's diet.

I still have some suspicion about industry capture here. As in, grains are cheaper than peas, and much cheaper than meat, so the cat food industry lobbies AAFCO and veterinary groups to say, at the least, that grains are harmless. If AAFCO, VCA, etc came out with guidance that grains were bad for cats, they'd be effectively condemning 95% of the cat food that's on store shelves, and there would be a lot of push back from industry. We certainly know from studies involving doctors (of people) that free lunches, paid consultancies, and "conferences" held in luxurious locations have a huge impact on which (and how many) drugs are prescribed to patients.

Note that the original post in this thread quoted a veterinarian as correlating grain content with taurine content, which simply does not make sense.