Bullying!

[willma]

Hi everyone,

I'm new on this site and I'd just like to hear feedback from other cat owners regarding somewhat aggressive behaviour in one of my cats. I'm not sure if there's anything I can (or should) do about it and would like to hear your thoughts...

We have 3 cats.  2 of them are 5yrs (Hamster "Hammy" and Nella), they are siblings and we got them as kittens. They have always gotten along well - not really cuddly together or anything, but they always played together and respect each others' space.  Hammy, the larger male, is definitely the more boisterous one and sometimes plays pretty rough, but he has never hurt his sister.  Nella is more timid in nature, but is still sociable and playful.

Almost a year ago we got our kitten, Samson. We introduced her gradually and kept them mostly separate at first.  Hammy started taking to the kitten first and it only took a few days for them to befriend each other.  It took longer with Nella... she was hissing and growling for a couple of weeks when Samson would come too near.  Samson couldn't have cared less of course... except that as time went on, I think she began to pick up on Nella's timidness.  As kittens do, she soon started terrorizing both of the older cats - clawing at and biting their tails and ears, pouncing and sitting on them, etc.  Hammy took it in stride and even enjoyed it, but it was obviously awful for Nella. Samson would just chase her all around the house and pounce on her over and over, biting her seemingly pretty hard and relentlessly... Nella rarely retaliated and eventually even stopped running away.  She would sit there all tense with her ears back and would make these awful, loud growly/screechy noises the whole time - but wouldn't move.  It became the kitten's favourite game to get this reaction.  Despite her tiny size, Samson was a big bully.  Sometimes when I'd see it happening I'd feel so bad for Nella that I would step in and stop Samson's attack. But she would be at it again within a minute.  

Anyway, I didn't like Samson attacking Nella, and I felt bad for Nella, but it seemed like there wasn't much we could do. Other than when Samson attacked, the two actually got along fine and would even sleep side by side sometimes. Nella was normal in every other sense, too - she hadn't changed in how she behaved with us or with Hammy, so we thought maybe it wasn't as bad as it looked.  We hoped that Samson might outgrow the rambunctiousness. We hoped, too, that maybe once Samson grew up a bit, Nella would feel like she could fight back because she was more her size......

Not so much.  Months later, it is still happening the same way, if not worse.  Samson is at least declawed now, but I feel like she's still hurting Nella with her teeth. She's still a few pounds smaller than Nella but that doesn't seem to matter.  Nella still doesn't defend herself and still makes the same horrible noise when she's being attacked.  On occasion, I find little cuts around her ear and I wonder if it's from Samson.  Just this week I also noticed some possible bite marks on her belly, and it looks like one of her nipples was bleeding a bit... it's starting to really concern me.  While Nella still acts like herself in most situations, it makes me sad to see her bullied like this!!!  Is there anything I can do to prevent Samson from attacking her so much? It doesn't help to push her away or pick Nella up - as soon as I'm gone, Samson is just back at it.  FYI, Samson is a very friendly cat in every other sense!

 

[catspaw66]

I really hate to say this, but by declawing Samson, you might have made the problem worse. She may have some low-grade constant pain and sees the other two as the reason she hurts.

I would get some Feliway diffusers or some Spirit Essences of the proper type.

FYI, this site is very anti-declaw and you may get flak about doing it.

 

[yayi]

Just curious - was Samson declawed because she was a bully? Or are all your cats declawed so it's s.o.p at your home? 

The first 2 years or so, cats are pretty mischievous, that is why the term "terrible twos" can be applied to felines. 

 Have you tried hissing at Samson, putting her on "time outs", saying NO? 

Since I have never had a declawed cat, I can't speak from experience. But I have been told that declawed cats tend to bite more. So poor Nella may be in for more hurt. 

 

[willma]

Thank you for your responses.  Yes it's true, kittens can be real little buggers for well past a year!! So fun, yet so crazy sometimes! 

To clarify, the kitten is not being vicious per se, it's pretty clear she's just having fun. She has a very friendly nature and never gets angry or anything - never hisses or growls.  She pounces on Hammy in the same way she does with Nella, but he fights back and they chase each other back and forth (for the record, Hammy and Nella chase each other around too, just Nella won't play with Samson). 

I had not considered hissing at Samson, or putting her on time-outs, but this sounds like it is probably what I need to do. I am really thinking this is a behavioural thing that needs some consistent discipline to change.  I just wasn't sure where to start, as I've never had to deal with anything like this before! I have tried NO but it does nothing. For time-outs, do you just put her in another room every time Samson attacks Nella? For how long?

To be clear, the biting behaviour was bad already months before Samson was declawed or spayed, and I honestly do not think the surgery made this behaviour worse.  My husband and I actually agreed that she was the exact same kitten as always after her surgery (we had been worried she'd change).

We declawed our first two cats after we got them as kittens 5 years ago, and so decided Samson should be on the same level as them.  Considering we have a newborn as well, we also thought this would be safest for him.  We have never seen any sign of discomfort in any of our cats, and I do pay close attention because I know that cats often hide that they are in pain. 

I obviously didn't realize this was an anti-declawing site and am actually now wondering whether I should not have posted my question at all, if I am to expect flack for it. I did not come on here expecting to have to defend myself. I'd really hope that people would have the respect and decency NOT to criticize me for my past decision.  Especially considering this is my first post and I'd hope that people here would be more welcoming than that.

 

[catspaw66]

I was not giving you any flak, I hope you noticed. I was just stating a fact and giving you a heads-up that some members are more likely to condemn you than others.

Please, don't go away from this site. We want to help you.

I have found that when you say "NO" point your finger at her for about 3 seconds or so. And frown when you do it. To work best, the offender should be no more than 4-5 feet away, so they know who you are pointing at.

Another thing that might help. Get an old medicine bottle, cleaned out of course, and put some BBs or SoftAir pellets in it. When Samson starts going after Nella, use the "NO" and give the bottle a shake or two. The noise will attract her attention away from Nella, at least for a bit and allow Nella to get away.

 

[katluver4life]

 
I was not giving you any flak, I hope you noticed. I was just stating a fact and giving you a heads-up that some members are more likely to condemn you than others.

Please, don't go away from this site. We want to help you.

I have found that when you say "NO" point your finger at her for about 3 seconds or so. And frown when you do it. To work best, the offender should be no more than 4-5 feet away, so they know who you are pointing at.

Another thing that might help. Get an old medicine bottle, cleaned out of course, and put some BBs or SoftAir pellets in it. When Samson starts going after Nella, use the "NO" and give the bottle a shake or two. The noise will attract her attention away from Nella, at least for a bit and allow Nella to get away.

The "NO" method must also be used consistently in order for them to learn what it means.

 

[fhicat]

Originally Posted by willma
I obviously didn't realize this was an anti-declawing site and am actually now wondering whether I should not have posted my question at all, if I am to expect flack for it. I did not come on here expecting to have to defend myself. I'd really hope that people would have the respect and decency NOT to criticize me for my past decision.  Especially considering this is my first post and I'd hope that people here would be more welcoming than that.

I volunteer at the humane society in my area, and am a strong opponent of declawing. There are a lot of misconceptions about it and we try to educate people on what it really is. One of the results of declawing is the risk of developing behavioral problems later in the cat's life. While I will not criticize your decision here, it would be irresponsible of me not to point that out.

Do you know the kitten's history? Kittens who don't grow up with their mothers may be slow to learn social graces, which includes how rough to play. Mothers "punish" their kittens if they misbehave, and soon they learn how to play without hurting others. 

Have you tried indirect intervention? Some cats may interpret your voice and stepping in as attention. Try a bottle or can of small pebbles. When Samson attacks Nella again, shake it hard once. If you can, find something that will startle Samson but not Nella (maybe something around your house that Nella has gotten used to). Try not to let them see you were the one making the loud sound. The idea is to get Samson to associate the unpleasant sound (not you!) with attacking Nella, such that she may decide not to do it in the future.

I hope you find a way that works; I feel bad for poor Nella too.

 

[willma]

 
I was not giving you any flak, I hope you noticed. I was just stating a fact and giving you a heads-up that some members are more likely to condemn you than others.

Please, don't go away from this site. We want to help you.

I have found that when you say "NO" point your finger at her for about 3 seconds or so. And frown when you do it. To work best, the offender should be no more than 4-5 feet away, so they know who you are pointing at.

Another thing that might help. Get an old medicine bottle, cleaned out of course, and put some BBs or SoftAir pellets in it. When Samson starts going after Nella, use the "NO" and give the bottle a shake or two. The noise will attract her attention away from Nella, at least for a bit and allow Nella to get away.

Thanks catspaw66, I do appreciate the heads up. Perhaps I got on the defensive a little prematurely hehe... but you had me worried I was going to get some nasty replies!  

 

Thank you for the sentiment, I do want to stick around.  I like the advice I've been getting here so far and I have also been so far enjoying reading and posting on other threads. You so far seem like a nice bunch of pet parents with lots of willingness to help other ones out.  

Great tips, I will try them!

 

The "NO" method must also be used consistently in order for them to learn what it means. 

Yes that's a problem I have had, consistency (along with not really knowing what to do)! I will have to dedicate myself to this for a while I think, though it might be a bit hard with a newborn.  Samson probably attacks Nella like this 4 or 5 times through the day and night, and I am not always around to intervene, like when I'm changing a diaper or nursing (or getting precious sleep, haha)...  I'm also a bit scared to make too much noise when the baby's napping, but I guess the rattling or my voice can't be much worse that Nella's noises! But I will do my best!

 
I volunteer at the humane society in my area, and am a strong opponent of declawing. There are a lot of misconceptions about it and we try to educate people on what it really is. One of the results of declawing is the risk of developing behavioral problems later in the cat's life. While I will not criticize your decision here, it would be irresponsible of me not to point that out.

Do you know the kitten's history? Kittens who don't grow up with their mothers may be slow to learn social graces, which includes how rough to play. Mothers "punish" their kittens if they misbehave, and soon they learn how to play without hurting others. 

Have you tried indirect intervention? Some cats may interpret your voice and stepping in as attention. Try a bottle or can of small pebbles. When Samson attacks Nella again, shake it hard once. If you can, find something that will startle Samson but not Nella (maybe something around your house that Nella has gotten used to). Try not to let them see you were the one making the loud sound. The idea is to get Samson to associate the unpleasant sound (not you!) with attacking Nella, such that she may decide not to do it in the future.

I hope you find a way that works; I feel bad for poor Nella too.

I totally understand where you are coming from, Fhi09, and agree that with the knowledge you have acquired, it is only responsible to educate others.  I am sure you are correct that there is a risk of behavioural problems with declawing, I cannot argue that. Especially if the vet did a bad job or it got infected afterwards or something like that.  

I would just like to add, though, that behavioural problems can have many roots and are certainly not limited to declawed cats (I've seen some crazy mean cats with claws - just sayin'!). What I'm getting at is that just because Samson is declawed does not mean that this is the reason she's attacking Nella. I was finding bite marks around Nella's ears long before Samson was declawed, she has always been a biter.

Thanks for your great suggestion!  I am liking the idea of the pebbles or pellets in a bottle.  I don't think I have enough command in my voice anyway for her to listen to me that way! 

I know, poor sweet Nella! She's such a lovey kitty, she's sitting on my lap just purring away as I type, and trying to rub her face on the screen.  I am at least somewhat consoled in that she has remained a very content and social girl. I will do what it takes to keep her that way.