Breed ideas? For a childs school report

[Mrskellydee]

Hey everyone! Our family recently adopted this sweet brother and sister pair: Alphie and Amelia. My oldest child is writing a research paper about her pets; however she is hoping for some insight on what breed(s) they may be - and hoping to be able to narrow it down to the top 1 or 2 likely breeds to research. We're feeling a bit iffy on the info from the rescue about breed...

For some extra info:

Both cats are super quiet, if they do want something they squeak like little mice. One insists on being held in a sling on my chest at least 3-4 hours during the day, like an infant (I'm not complaining) and the other doesn't like being held, but loves snuggling in bed/on the couch. They are always around where the family is. ALWAYS. Minimal minimal minimal shedding, super soft coat. Tolerant of a 4 year old who loves them too much. Super relaxed cats, but happy to play and entertain our 3 kids. (Amelia has the darker markings on her head, Alphie has the tan markings)

Thoughts?

...also I posted a thousand pictures because in a SHOCKING twist, the research paper is due in a couple of days. Haha, kids

 

[daftcat75]

I'm not an expert on cat breeds. Nor do I even pretend to be one in a Holiday Inn Express commercial. What little I know is that unless you bought your cats from a breeder, or they clearly exhibit breed-specific appearance (like Bengals, Persians, Siamese, etc), your cat probably isn't any specific breed.

This article might help. There are probably also breed finder articles where you can answer questions and they try to narrow it down for you.

What Breed Is My Cat? – TheCatSite Articles

It won't help you for your kids' report due in a couple days. But you can also order DNA testing to see what breed(s) might be represented in their genetics.

 

[Mrskellydee]

I'm not an expert on cat breeds. Nor do I even pretend to be one in a Holiday Inn Express commercial. What little I know is that unless you bought your cats from a breeder, or they clearly exhibit breed-specific appearance (like Bengals, Persians, Siamese, etc), your cat probably isn't any specific breed.

This article might help. There are probably also breed finder articles where you can answer questions and they try to narrow it down for you.

What Breed Is My Cat? – TheCatSite Articles

It won't help you for your kids' report due in a couple days. But you can also order DNA testing to see what breed(s) might be represented in their genetics.

Thank you! Yes, we know they are little mixed bags of fun - she was hoping someone may notice some features consistent with specific cat breeds to hopefully narrow down her paper. ...but again she waited until it was due in 2 days so... Thanks again, and I will read the info from the link with her tonight!

 

[Kieka]

Hello and welcome to the cat site!

I have good news and bad news when it comes to breed identification. The good news is you are in the right place for assistance. The bad news is that I don't think the answer is going to be what you wanted to hear.

First, cat breeding and the human conception of purebred or cat breeds. The lovely Feline we share our homes with today originates (we think) from domestication in the fertile Cresent of the near east (Syria area) around 10,000 years ago. Domestication being more so cats seeing a food source and moving in while humans saw the benefit and let them. Cats though have always served as pest control so they didn't have much function beyond catch pests around homes and farms. Because of their limited human usage we didn't really selectively breed them beyond selecting the best mouser for kittens on some farms. Whereas dogs were selectively bred for tracking, hunting, protection, pulling sleds, and other tasks. What this means is that dogs have a long history of being bred into selective lines for specific purposes while cats were just allowed to bred. Leading to dogs have many different recognized distinctive breeds while cats were just domestic cats. The whole idea of "breeds" being a human concept to group and define animals.

It wasn't until 1598 that anyone really thought of selective breeding in cats, that is the first document cat show in the UK. But even that wasn't for breed as we know it, it was for best mouser and similar categories. Which arguably doesn't even mean selectively breeding was a thing yet but I am sure some enterprising soul sold their kittens saying that the mom was the best mouser of 1598 so we can stretch the definition. But at that point we are still saying all cats are a single breed with different colorings up. It isn't until the 1860s in Maine that we start seeing recognition of breeds with the Maine Coon show. Maine Coon being the natural derivative of the cats who settled in the Maine region and survived their harsh winters. The first modern what we would recognize as cat show in the UK was 1871. Safe to say by the mid 1800s the idea of different breeds of cats had become a thing. Although at that point some breeds included "Tabby cat" and "white cat" which we now identify as colors not breeds.

All to say the idea of there being distinct cats breeds is actually a new concept. By the mid 1900s we had started to group breeds into what we now recognize. In most cases, cat breeds are naturally occurring coloration, body shape and traits that have been honed in to breed true. BUT, since those traits are naturally occurring you can't assume breed from appearance alone anymore. Modern day cats to be considered a specific breed need to have documentation showing their lineage and genetic link into the breed to be actually considered that breed. In reality, the portion of the world's population that is a specific named breed is very very small. And Google is no help because anyone can label their photo with the tag for a breed but that doesn't make that cat the breed which only furthers the confusion of the general public.

For example, this is my girl Rocket.

She is a dead ringer for a Snowshoe siamese and Google lens will kick back that result. She has the white chest and face markings, blue eyes, seal point coloration everything that ticks the boxes. But she is not a Snowshoe siamese, she is a moggy. A moggy being a domestic cat of no specific lineage. I saw her family line and have known her since she was a baby. She is from a Tabby and black cat lineage that had a drop of colorpoint in it. She just got the right genetic combination to look the way she does which just happens to correlate with a specific breed. It doesn't make her that breed, just a lovely moggy lookalike.

In fact, I would argue, that no more than 10% of the cats in the world are within 5 generations of a cat who could be considered purebred. Cat breeding is just not popular enough and with modern spay and neuter clauses in contract plus human knowledge anything that did get out in the 70s or 80s or even 90s that was purebred to breed with domestic cats has been diluted too much to really make a huge difference. It would be like me claiming I was English because my ancestors 300 years ago were.

Which brings us to your cats. Technically without any breed paperwork to document their history they would be...

Breed: Domestic Cat

We'd hone that in to be Domestic Longhair because we include coat length in their breed description most of the time.

Their coloring is interesting. The blue eyes plus heavy white is reminiscent of Turkish Van. Now Turkish Van is one of those naturally occurring breeds that humans refined through selective breeding. Turkish Angora is a similar from the same area. If I was writing a paper I would say they are domestic longhair cats because most cats are domestic cats and without documentation of a specific breed we cannot make assumptions based on appearances. Which is an important point of not assuming apperance means anything beyond a happy accident of the genetics. However, they bear physical similarity to the Turkish Van's and Turkish Angoras and maybe use some research about those breed to draw some comparisons for fun.

 

[Mrskellydee]

Also, my daughter said to tell you that she's "not an 'A+' student, nor does she even play one on TV."

She's 12.

She really appreciated the opening lines to your response . Apparently she's going to find a way to work it into her paper - so... Thanks!

I'm not an expert on cat breeds. Nor do I even pretend to be one in a Holiday Inn Express commercial. What little I know is that unless you bought your cats from a breeder, or they clearly exhibit breed-specific appearance (like Bengals, Persians, Siamese, etc), your cat probably isn't any specific breed.

This article might help. There are probably also breed finder articles where you can answer questions and they try to narrow it down for you.

What Breed Is My Cat? – TheCatSite Articles

It won't help you for your kids' report due in a couple days. But you can also order DNA testing to see what breed(s) might be represented in their genetics.

 

[Mrskellydee]

Hello and welcome to the cat site!

I have good news and bad news when it comes to breed identification. The good news is you are in the right place for assistance. The bad news is that I don't think the answer is going to be what you wanted to hear.

First, cat breeding and the human conception of purebred or cat breeds. The lovely Feline we share our homes with today originates (we think) from domestication in the fertile Cresent of the near east (Syria area) around 10,000 years ago. Domestication being more so cats seeing a food source and moving in while humans saw the benefit and let them. Cats though have always served as pest control so they didn't have much function beyond catch pests around homes and farms. Because of their limited human usage we didn't really selectively breed them beyond selecting the best mouser for kittens on some farms. Whereas dogs were selectively bred for tracking, hunting, protection, pulling sleds, and other tasks. What this means is that dogs have a long history of being bred into selective lines for specific purposes while cats were just allowed to bred. Leading to dogs have many different recognized distinctive breeds while cats were just domestic cats. The whole idea of "breeds" being a human concept to group and define animals.

It wasn't until 1598 that anyone really thought of selective breeding in cats, that is the first document cat show in the UK. But even that wasn't for breed as we know it, it was for best mouser and similar categories. Which arguably doesn't even mean selectively breeding was a thing yet but I am sure some enterprising soul sold their kittens saying that the mom was the best mouser of 1598 so we can stretch the definition. But at that point we are still saying all cats are a single breed with different colorings up. It isn't until the 1860s I'm Maine that we start seeing recognition of breeds with the Maine Coon show. Maine Coon being the natural derivative of the cats who settled in the Maine region and survived their harsh winter's. The first modern what we would recognize as cat show in the UK was 1871. Safe to say by the mid 1800s the idea of different breeds of cats had become a thing. Although at that point some breeds included "Tabby cat" and "white cat" which we now identify as colors not breeds.

All to say the idea of there being distinct cats breeds is actually a new concept. By the mid 1900s we had started to group breeds into what we now recognize. In most cases, cat breeds are naturally occurring coloration, body shape and traits that have been honed in to breed true. BUT, since those traits are naturally occurring you can't assume breed from appearance alone anymore. Modern day cats to be considered a specific breed need to have documentation showing their lineage and genetic link into the breed to be actually considered that breed. In reality, the portion of the world's population that is a specific named breed is very very small. And Google is no help because anyone can label their photo with the tag for a breed but that doesn't make that cat the breed which only furthers the confusion of the general public.

For example, this is my girl Rocket.
View attachment 410241

She is a dead ringer for a Snowshoe siamese and Google lens will kick back that result. She has the white chest and face markings, blue eyes, seal point coloration everything that ticks the boxes. But she is not a Snowshoe siamese, she is a moggy. A moggy being a domestic cat of no specific lineage. I saw her family line and have known her since she was a baby. She is from a Tabby and black cat lineage that had a drop of colorpoint in it. She just got the right genetic combination to look the way she does which just happens to correlate with a specific breed. It doesn't make her that breed, just a lovely moggy lookalike.

In fact, I would argue, that no more than 10% of the cats in the world are within 5 generations of a cat who could be considered purebred. Cat breeding is just not popular enough and with modern spay and neuter clauses in contract plus human knowledge anything that did get out in the 70s or 80s or even 90s that was purebred to breed with domestic cats has been diluted too much to really make a huge difference. It would be like me claiming I was English because my ancestors 300 years ago were.

Which brings us to your cats. Technically without any breed paperwork to document their history they would be...

Breed: Domestic Cat

We'd hone that in to be Domestic Longhair because we include coat length in their breed description most of the time.

Their coloring is interesting. The blue eyes plus heavy white is reminiscent of Turkish Van. Now Turkish Van is one of those naturally occurring breeds that humans refined through selective breeding. Turkish Angora is a similar from the same area. If I was writing a paper I would say they are domestic longhair cats because most cats are domestic cats and without documentation of a specific breed we cannot make assumptions based on appearances. Which is an important point of not assuming apperance means anything beyond a happy accident of the genetics. However, they bear physical similarity to the Turkish Van's and Turkish Angoras and maybe use some research about those breed to draw some comparisons for fun.

No, that is a totally amazing response and honestly EXACTLY what was needed.

She was doing research and came to Turkish Angora and Ragdoll (because one just flops in her arms everywhere AND she found them at a ragdoll rescue... we talked about that whole situation). But the instructor kept pressing for more and more and more "proof" that supported her decision. Also, the teacher is a self-proclaimed "cat lady" (so hayyyyy if you're on this site Mrs. M) and my kid thinks she'll somehow know if she doesn't pick the appropriate breed(s) to research. My daughter used Domestic Longhair, because that is what the vet records say, but they wanted her to "dig deeper" and narrow it down. I have been here for an hour and I love y'all already

I may need to save your response to put in an email if this paper goes sideways.

 

[Danneq]

They look like they have some ragdoll in them to me. The fact that they're from a ragdoll shelter supports that, but unless you have papers (which I'm assuming you don't, because if you did you wouldn't need to ask) there's no way to know for sure if they're "pure" ragdoll, or mixed with something else, or aren't ragdolls at all but just happen to look similar.

I think her direction of ragdolls and Turkish angoras is a good direction for her paper, but include clear caveats that this is a guess. She can do the history of both breeds and also the details that Kieka mentioned. You think she is these two breeds, here is a history of them, but also you're not certain and here is why.

 

[carebearbaby1]

They look a lot like Turkish Vans.

 

[Kieka]

They look like they have some ragdoll in them to me. The fact that they're from a ragdoll shelter supports that, but unless you have papers (which I'm assuming you don't, because if you did you wouldn't need to ask) there's no way to know for sure if they're "pure" ragdoll, or mixed with something else, or aren't ragdolls at all but just happen to look similar.

I think her direction of ragdolls and Turkish angoras is a good direction for her paper, but include clear caveats that this is a guess. She can do the history of both breeds and also the details that Kieka mentioned. You think she is these two breeds, here is a history of them, but also you're not certain and here is why.

Only because this is for a paper, I'd disagree.

Ragdoll is a colorpoint breed, their blue eyes are due to a mutation similar to albinism. They have heat sensitive fur that tends to darken as they age and a mask on their face. It would be unusual for a colorpoint cat to have this much white and just the color spots on their head with no variation in the existing color due to temperature differences on the skull. The going limp is selective breeding for that type of trait but also the breeder raise the kittens for it and only show/sell those with it. It was a trait the breed founder found in a moggy that they liked. It is a trait my domestic shorthair solid black cat also shares even though he has never had ragdoll in his ancestry. There is also the whole is it an Inherited trait or learned trait, nature over nature discussion, in there too. These cats don't have any physical similarities like face shape, body shape and their coats while long hair don't appear to be ragdoll type long hair (shorter on body with a longer tail while ragdolls are fluffy all over, I also would put money that these two will have dramatic winter to summer coat differences which you don't see as much with ragdoll).

Based on the intensity of the coloration on the two cats in questions heads and how clear their body white is, I don't think they are colorpoints. Since both Turskish Van and Tuskish Angora are primarily white with blue eyes being a standard coloring, I think they fit better with those two breeds. Both Turkish breeds are known for being intelligent and bonding with their humans which could result in them enjoying pets and going limp.

Ending up at a ragdoll rescue was probably the human desire to categorize combined with ragdolls higher popularity and a cursory knowledge of breeds. Shelters are notoriously bad at breed identification (I've seen a black cat labeled orange level bad) and breed rescues tend to pull anything with the description similar. Blue eyes, long hair and white fur would make them appear to fit on a quick look at a shelter roster.

I will note I have a whole soapbox rant both about the assignment and the teacher pushing them to dig deeper but I will withhold it.

 

[GoldyCat]

Kieka please note that Turkish Angora and Turkish Van are two distinctly separate breeds. They both developed from natural breeds in Turkey but in widely separated geographic areas. It's harder to tell from pictures, but if you see the two side-by-side in person you can see that there are more differences than similarities. They have different body types, different head/ear type, different fur types.
Both breeds may have eye colors other than blue, including green, amber, and odd-eyed.

Mrskellydee going by appearance only in your pictures, your cats look more like Turkish Van than Turkish Angora, but not close enough to say they actually have any of the breed in them.

They also have some similarities to the Ragdoll breed but without a known pedigree you can't really call them Ragdolls. Just because they came from a Ragdoll rescue does not make them that breed. Most of the breed specific rescues get cats that are not actually their breed. They'll get look-alikes or cats with one known parent and one unknown. They may also get several cats from the same household that are being kept together but only one of them might be the breed.

Hopefully your daughter can write a paper that will educate the "cat lady" teacher.

 

[Tik cat's mum]

I would say they resemble Turkish van's. Van markings and that lovely coat. They are beautiful by the way.

 

[Kieka]

Turkish Angora and Turkish Van are two distinctly separate breeds.

Thank you

 

[Danneq]

Only because this is for a paper, I'd disagree.

Ragdoll is a colorpoint breed, their blue eyes are due to a mutation similar to albinism. They have heat sensitive fur that tends to darken as they age and a mask on their face. It would be unusual for a colorpoint cat to have this much white and just the color spots on their head with no variation in the existing color due to temperature differences on the skull. The going limp is selective breeding for that type of trait but also the breeder raise the kittens for it and only show/sell those with it. It was a trait the breed founder found in a moggy that they liked. It is a trait my domestic shorthair solid black cat also shares even though he has never had ragdoll in his ancestry. There is also the whole is it an Inherited trait or learned trait, nature over nature discussion, in there too. These cats don't have any physical similarities like face shape, body shape and their coats while long hair don't appear to be ragdoll type long hair (shorter on body with a longer tail while ragdolls are fluffy all over, I also would put money that these two will have dramatic winter to summer coat differences which you don't see as much with ragdoll).

Based on the intensity of the coloration on the two cats in questions heads and how clear their body white is, I don't think they are colorpoints. Since both Turskish Van and Tuskish Angora are primarily white with blue eyes being a standard coloring, I think they fit better with those two breeds. Both Turkish breeds are known for being intelligent and bonding with their humans which could result in them enjoying pets and going limp.

Ending up at a ragdoll rescue was probably the human desire to categorize combined with ragdolls higher popularity and a cursory knowledge of breeds. Shelters are notoriously bad at breed identification (I've seen a black cat labeled orange level bad) and breed rescues tend to pull anything with the description similar. Blue eyes, long hair and white fur would make them appear to fit on a quick look at a shelter roster.

I will note I have a whole soapbox rant both about the assignment and the teacher pushing them to dig deeper but I will withhold it.

Yeah, I didn't think there was a chance they were pb ragdoll, just that there might be some ragdoll in them. They look similar but not identical, and the behavior matches.

I would say they resemble Turkish van's. Van markings and that lovely coat. They are beautiful by the way.

Huh, I thought Turkish van was just the coloration, I didn't know there was an actual breed that the color was named for. Learn something new every day! Looking at pictures online, they seem like as good a guess as any.

 

[Maurey]

Yeah, I didn't think there was a chance they were pb ragdoll, just that there might be some ragdoll in them. They look similar but not identical, and the behavior matches.


Huh, I thought Turkish van was just the coloration, I didn't know there was an actual breed that the color was named for. Learn something new every day! Looking at pictures online, they seem like as good a guess as any.

Van pattern is a type of high white that Turkish Vans are known for

 

[vince]

Kieka just about gave you the core of the paper. Just be sure to acknowledge whatever you use with a footnote!

 

[Meowmee]

Hey everyone! Our family recently adopted this sweet brother and sister pair: Alphie and Amelia. My oldest child is writing a research paper about her pets; however she is hoping for some insight on what breed(s) they may be - and hoping to be able to narrow it down to the top 1 or 2 likely breeds to research. We're feeling a bit iffy on the info from the rescue about breed...

For some extra info:

Both cats are super quiet, if they do want something they squeak like little mice. One insists on being held in a sling on my chest at least 3-4 hours during the day, like an infant (I'm not complaining) and the other doesn't like being held, but loves snuggling in bed/on the couch. They are always around where the family is. ALWAYS. Minimal minimal minimal shedding, super soft coat. Tolerant of a 4 year old who loves them too much. Super relaxed cats, but happy to play and entertain our 3 kids. (Amelia has the darker markings on her head, Alphie has the tan markings)

Thoughts?

...also I posted a thousand pictures because in a SHOCKING twist, the research paper is due in a couple of days. Haha, kids
View attachment 410233View attachment 410234View attachment 410235View attachment 410236View attachment 410237View attachment 410238

When I looked at them I immediately thought turkish van look alikes. Other breeds to research are forest cats and ragdolls. They are officially dlh with the high white van pattern without a history. Here is an article about cat coat color she could read.

Gorgeous babies

How the Cat Got Its Coat (and Other Furry Tails)