Bladder stone

[Dee$kee]

Desperately looking for recommendations for a good wet and dry food for my 7 year old cat. She has had a bladder stone (struvite) for many months, and now because she’s had it so long, has also developed kidney stones as well. She unfortunately prefers dry food over wet so I’m assuming this is how she got into this situation in the first place. She mainly eats dry and will also eat (minimal) wet food for her breakfast/dinner.

I know her best bet is to be eating strictly wet food only, but that isn’t possible with her preferences.

She is currently on a dry food from the Vet. I refuse to feed her expensive CORN based junk food from the vet permanently, even though that is what will be recommended I’m sure. She will NOT drink chicken broth or eat dry food with water added to it. She used to drink a good amount of water but now since being on the vet food she barely drinks anything. She has zero interest in water fountains.

Really needing suggestions of wet and dry food for her issues. She has lost a ton of weight since this started and I don’t want to lose her. Also wanting to avoid a $2,000+ surgery, if I can help it…(which likely won’t fix the problem long term, as the stones can reoccur).

Also open to supplements/products recommendations that worked for your cats with similar urinary issues if anyone has any!
Thanks so much!

 

[silent meowlook]

She is beautiful. How did they diagnose struvite stones in your cat? Unfortunately you need to have her in the prescription diet to try to dissolve the stones.

 

[Dee$kee]

She is beautiful. How did they diagnose struvite stones in your cat? Unfortunately you need to have her in the prescription diet to try to dissolve the stones.

Thank you! She’s had two x-rays so far. She has been on two different vet prescribed brands dry food and neither seemed to help at all. It has gotten a bit smaller on the second x-ray. The vet thinks maybe the outer part of the stone is struvite and possibly inside is calcium oxalate.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. You are in a tough position to be sure. If one or more stones, or even a part of one, is oxalate, prescription food will not dissolve it, but rather help to prevent future ones from developing. The prescription foods will help to dissolve struvites and decrease the odds for new ones developing, but if any stone is larger in size, it may not be able to be dissolved.

Long story not made short.

My cat, at the age of 5, was found to have oxalate stones and underwent surgical removal. She was on prescription foods - initially dry only, for years, as her preference was dry food. I did add the prescription wet food eventually, and thankfully, she was willing to eat it. She was probably on these foods for nearly 10 years before she decided she liked none of them, and actually got to the point of not wanting dry at all.

So, since then she has been on non-prescription foods, but wet only. She is now 19+ yo. Knock on wood, but she has not had stones develop again. There appears to have been some damage to her kidneys possibly due to the stones, but the damage that was done has remained unchanged. She does have CKD, but it is not known if the initial damage attributed to it.

I tell you all this, as I would suggest that you leave her on the prescription dry food for now. It isn't the best, but it does not seem to have harmed Feeby from what anyone knows. As you do that, continue to work on getting her to accept some wet food, prescription or otherwise. Place water dishes in multiple locations about the house. so that she might actually take a drink or two as she passes by them. You can consider adding just a tiny bit of tuna 'juice' from canned tuna to the water to see if that might encourage her to drink - you can do the same with other foods like sardines, salmon, and even chicken. Try to use crushed up dry food as a topper to wet foods and see if that might help her to gradually accept some of them. There are some non-prescription foods, both wet and dry, that you could look into. Just do an internet search on 'urinary care cat foods'. I would start with those, and then move beyond if she chooses not to eat/like any of them.

I have never used any kidney support products, but here are a few (see link below) you can look at to see if any of them might be helpful. Aside from helping to balance PH, I am not sure how much impact they would have in preventing stone formation. I do use pure D-Mannose, but that was primarily added to Feeby's diet to help clear bacteria from her bladder in order to reduce the chances of UTIs, as she was getting them relatively frequently. Since being on this product for the past 3 years, she has only had one UTI (again, knock on wood). Other members also use it for general urinary health.

Keep having her urinary tract monitored through urinalyses, x-rays, and perhaps an occasional ultrasound. You may find you have no recourse but to proceed with surgery. I don't regret that I did that for Feeby.

8 Best Urinary & Kidney Supplements for Cats | iHeartCats.com

 

[Dee$kee]

Hi. You are in a tough position to be sure. If one or more stones, or even a part of one, is oxalate, prescription food will not dissolve it, but rather help to prevent future ones from developing. The prescription foods will help to dissolve struvites and decrease the odds for new ones developing, but if any stone is larger in size, it may not be able to be dissolved.

Long story not made short.

My cat, at the age of 5, was found to have oxalate stones and underwent surgical removal. She was on prescription foods - initially dry only, for years, as her preference was dry food. I did add the prescription wet food eventually, and thankfully, she was willing to eat it. She was probably on these foods for nearly 10 years before she decided she liked none of them, and actually got to the point of not wanting dry at all.

So, since then she has been on non-prescription foods, but wet only. She is now 19+ yo. Knock on wood, but she has not had stones develop again. There appears to have been some damage to her kidneys possibly due to the stones, but the damage that was done has remained unchanged. She does have CKD, but it is not known if the initial damage attributed to it.

I tell you all this, as I would suggest that you leave her on the prescription dry food for now. It isn't the best, but it does not seem to have harmed Feeby from what anyone knows. As you do that, continue to work on getting her to accept some wet food, prescription or otherwise. Place water dishes in multiple locations about the house. so that she might actually take a drink or two as she passes by them. You can consider adding just a tiny bit of tuna 'juice' from canned tuna to the water to see if that might encourage her to drink - you can do the same with other foods like sardines, salmon, and even chicken. Try to use crushed up dry food as a topper to wet foods and see if that might help her to gradually accept some of them. There are some non-prescription foods, both wet and dry, that you could look into. Just do an internet search on 'urinary care cat foods'. I would start with those, and then move beyond if she chooses not to eat/like any of them.

I have never used any kidney support products, but here are a few (see link below) you can look at to see if any of them might be helpful. Aside from helping to balance PH, I am not sure how much impact they would have in preventing stone formation. I do use pure D-Mannose, but that was primarily added to Feeby's diet to help clear bacteria from her bladder in order to reduce the chances of UTIs, as she was getting them relatively frequently. Since being on this product for the past 3 years, she has only had one UTI (again, knock on wood). Other members also use it for general urinary health.

Keep having her urinary tract monitored through urinalyses, x-rays, and perhaps an occasional ultrasound. You may find you have no recourse but to proceed with surgery. I don't regret that I did that for Feeby.

8 Best Urinary & Kidney Supplements for Cats | iHeartCats.com

Thanks for your reply. That’s funny, my baby’s name is Phoebe as well.

Well the stone was quite large on the first x-ray. It has gotten smaller but I think it’s still quite big? I have attached a photo. I really want to avoid physically altering surgery at all costs. But I understand I ultimately won’t have any choice if it’s oxalate.

Also, the vet wants her on a strict prescription diet - I really don’t have the heart to deny her the non-prescription wet food I feed the rest of my cats everyday twice a day. She has seemed to be more into the regular wet food more lately. Am I harming her by giving her some wet food everyday which isn’t prescription? She will only eat the prescriptions dry foods. I have tried every prescription wet kind there is but she won’t even try any of them. I feel like she has lost enough weight and I don’t want to be starving her in any way, especially if she’s wanting the food and looks forward to it everyday. She also isn’t getting any nutritional value with her gross corn vet food.

Do you have any experience with Apple cider vinegar? I have tried giving her 1/4 tsp twice per day but it’s more traumatizing for the both of us than anything. She does not like anything done to her. She also won’t let me give her sub-q fluids either. I have also tried giving her CBD oil but she’s impossible…

How do you give pure D-Mannose? This is human pills right? My girl has not had a UTI with this stone being present, however she was prescribed an antibiotic by a horrible vet I seen initially (before her bloodwork came back) and was given 10 days of antibiotics unnecessarily so ever since then she has been pooping very very minimal amounts. Like so tiny, for months. Ever since she finished the course of antibiotics. I tried giving probiotics but nothing has seemed to help. So she’s pooping tiny amounts and peeing tiny amounts. She’s also been peeing blood for months now, several times a day and peeing all over the house on random objects, etc. It’s been a nightmare. She’s my baby so I hate seeing her so uncomfortable. But at least it doesn’t seem to be as bad as it initially was, as there not as much urgency to pee as before.

 

[Dee$kee]

Also want to add I wasn’t giving her straight ACV.. it was 1/4 tsp ACV mixed with 1 tsp water in a syringe by mouth.

From my research online, I have noted ACV, CBD oil, D-Mannose and cranberry pills can help with urinary stones/issues. Anything else to add? I am always interested in natural health options if possible.
Also how would you give D-Mannose or cranberry pills?

 

[FeebysOwner]

That is funny about them both having the same name, even with different spellings!!! My Feeby is a mostly gray dilute tortie!

The blood in Phoebe's urine is typically indicative of stone irritation to the bladder wall/lining, which can lead to an infection, so antibiotics aren't necessarily a bad thing, but won't do much to stop continual bladder irritation. You might ask the vet if an anti-inflammatory would be of any value. Antibiotics can mess with gut flora, hence the change in stool, but it is usually looser stools, not lesser amounts. If anything, you would think the dry food would produce more stool rather than less. Perhaps, it is because she is eating less?

You know, if it were me, I would still give her some small amount of the non-prescription wet food - or, try some of the commercial (non-prescription) wet foods that are specific to urinary care. It is one thing to try to protect her from stones, but sometimes keeping a cat eating with some added foods they like is equally important. When Feeby stopped eating all the urinary care food, I took a gamble with other foods, because she really was not eating very well at all. Just IMO.

I don't give Feeby any other kind of urinary care supplement, and I don't know if the list I offered you is not in your mind considered 'natural', but you still might want to look at those options.

I have never used ACV; can't imagine Feeby taking it, even if diluted. I use the powdered version of 100% pure D-Mannose, but I do use a pet specific brand - just a 1/4 tsp mixed in her wet food daily. I have heard some say the flavor changes once mixed with wet food and it is not as pleasant, but Feeby has never taken issue with it at all. D-Mannose is a derivative of cranberry, which is more potent, so I personally would not bother with cranberry pills, as long as Phoebe will eat the D-Mannose.
UTI Pets Pure D-Mannose Powder | WellnessPartners.com™

 

[fionasmom]

Fiona herself had bladder stone surgery at 9 years old. We had repeated UTIs and finally a big episode on Mother's Day and I opted for the surgery. It was $1500 at the time, so I certainly understand about the expense. It did solve all her bladder issues though and she was very uncooperative about food. When she developed hyperthyroidism, she would only take her pill in very heavily fishy food like BFF. I may have been lucky that stones did not recur, but they did not and she lived 7 more years.

I have used D Mannose for years with animals. It is a bladder non-adherent but will not cure a UTI once one is up and running. I use the one listed above and have been very happy with the quality. To me, it tastes like powdered sugar and the cat in question seems to sense a taste to it and is not crazy about it, but it can be a big help. I never used ACV.

 

[silent meowlook]

Hi. If you are feeding a prescription diet to try to dissolve the stone, you must feed only the prescription diet and nothing else. Otherwise you are just wasting money. That is a large stone.

 

[Dee$kee]

Hi. If you are feeding a prescription diet to try to dissolve the stone, you must feed only the prescription diet and nothing else. Otherwise you are just wasting money. That is a large stone.

I understand that, but isn’t it counter productive to give her only dry food? Prescription or not. She should be on wet food only as she needs moisture in her diet to get her peeing and dissolving the stone. I really don’t like giving her strictly the dry prescription food, especially when she drinks next to nothing for water when she eats it. Another reason is she is loving her wet food lately and looks forward to it twice a day and to just cut her off and give my other 4 cats wet food and not her would make her feel some sort of way, lol… I just feel so guilty about having to do that to her. Especially since the wet food improves her mood for sure..she has been in a lot better spirits lately and is content after she’s ate her wet food. Sounds silly, but it’s true. It’s just frustrating she won’t touch the prescription wet foods. I have tried every brand available.

 

[Dee$kee]

That is funny about them both having the same name, even with different spellings!!! My Feeby is a mostly gray dilute tortie!

The blood in Phoebe's urine is typically indicative of stone irritation to the bladder wall/lining, which can lead to an infection, so antibiotics aren't necessarily a bad thing, but won't do much to stop continual bladder irritation. You might ask the vet if an anti-inflammatory would be of any value. Antibiotics can mess with gut flora, hence the change in stool, but it is usually looser stools, not lesser amounts. If anything, you would think the dry food would produce more stool rather than less. Perhaps, it is because she is eating less?

You know, if it were me, I would still give her some small amount of the non-prescription wet food - or, try some of the commercial (non-prescription) wet foods that are specific to urinary care. It is one thing to try to protect her from stones, but sometimes keeping a cat eating with some added foods they like is equally important. When Feeby stopped eating all the urinary care food, I took a gamble with other foods, because she really was not eating very well at all. Just IMO.

I don't give Feeby any other kind of urinary care supplement, and I don't know if the list I offered you is not in your mind considered 'natural', but you still might want to look at those options.

I have never used ACV; can't imagine Feeby taking it, even if diluted. I use the powdered version of 100% pure D-Mannose, but I do use a pet specific brand - just a 1/4 tsp mixed in her wet food daily. I have heard some say the flavor changes once mixed with wet food and it is not as pleasant, but Feeby has never taken issue with it at all. D-Mannose is a derivative of cranberry, which is more potent, so I personally would not bother with cranberry pills, as long as Phoebe will eat the D-Mannose.
UTI Pets Pure D-Mannose Powder | WellnessPartners.com™

Thanks for that!
Well it seems the antibiotics have made her constipated, if anything. She poops dry, very very tiny amounts. She hasn’t had a normal sized poop since before the antibiotics and that was many months ago.
Is the D-Mannose powder for UTI conditions only? Or would it help dissolve stones?

 

[FeebysOwner]

Well it seems the antibiotics have made her constipated, if anything. She poops dry, very very tiny amounts. She hasn’t had a normal sized poop since before the antibiotics and that was many months ago.
Is the D-Mannose powder for UTI conditions only? Or would it help dissolve stones?

Maybe it is the dry food that has contributed to her smaller, dry poops - not enough moisture in her diet?

'UTI conditions' would be considered a Urinary Tract Infection, and D-Mannose will not resolve an infection, just help possibly prevent them. I don't know if D-Mannose would do anything to help dissolve stones. Its main purpose is to help reduce bacterial build up in the bladder. Stones are made up of minerals, and urine PH levels can have an effect on stone development too. D-Mannose might help with urine PH since it is keeping bacteria levels down, so I suppose, indirectly, D-Mannose could help reduce stone formation, but I don't see it actually helping to dissolve stones.

 

[silent meowlook]

The reason for the Rx diet is to control the urinary pH. Struvite crystals have trouble in an acidic environment and calcium oxalate in an alkaline environment. What they eat plays into the pH of the urine. If you are going to feed regular cat food as well as Rx it defeats the purpose of the Rx diet.
There is only one diet that will actually breakdown stones, and that is the HILLSScience Diet S/D. It comes in canned and dry. Canned is always preferred. The other diets, C/D, S/O and U/R are prevented diets, not curing. They should only be on the S/D until the stones dissolve.
It would be good to talk to your vet before making any diet changes.

 

[Dee$kee]

Maybe it is the dry food that has contributed to her smaller, dry poops - not enough moisture in her diet?

'UTI conditions' would be considered a Urinary Tract Infection, and D-Mannose will not resolve an infection, just help possibly prevent them. I don't know if D-Mannose would do anything to help dissolve stones. Its main purpose is to help reduce bacterial build up in the bladder. Stones are made up of minerals, and urine PH levels can have an effect on stone development too. D-Mannose might help with urine PH since it is keeping bacteria levels down, so I suppose, indirectly, D-Mannose could help reduce stone formation, but I don't see it actually helping to dissolve stones.

Makes sense. But no, she’s always ate more dry food than wet and never had issues with pooping until she was on the antibiotic while she didn’t have any infection. She eats a lot more wet food now than she ever did. She seems to be doing a lot better lately, mood wise, which is good. She may even be putting a bit of weight back on..she’s not that much into her urinary dry food but is loving her wet food these days which isn’t like her lol

 

[Dee$kee]

The reason for the Rx diet is to control the urinary pH. Struvite crystals have trouble in an acidic environment and calcium oxalate in an alkaline environment. What they eat plays into the pH of the urine. If you are going to feed regular cat food as well as Rx it defeats the purpose of the Rx diet.
There is only one diet that will actually breakdown stones, and that is the HILLSScience Diet S/D. It comes in canned and dry. Canned is always preferred. The other diets, C/D, S/O and U/R are prevented diets, not curing. They should only be on the S/D until the stones dissolve.
It would be good to talk to your vet before making any diet changes.

She originally was on Royal Canin urinary s/o, which didn’t help anything. Now she is on Hills urinary care c/d. I was told both of these dissolve stones by my vet?

 

[silent meowlook]

On the HILLS website, it now claims the C/D multi care dissolves stones. This is the first I heard of that. I have posted below the link to first the S/D and then I have posted below a link to the Royal Canin S/O diet as well. There is no mention of that diet disolving

Hill's Prescription Diet s/d Wet Cat Food

Hill's Prescription Diet c/d Multicare Chicken & Vegetable Stew Cat Food



Feline Urinary SO® Moderate Calorie morsels in gravy | Royal Canin US

Then I have posted a link to an article written for veterinarians on a veterinary website that provides information to veterinarians and veterinary staff. DVM360. That organization also does allot of the continuing education seminars for veterinarians

Tips for managing feline urolithiasis from a feline practitioner

Then I have posted a link to cat info.org which is a site by Dr. Lisa Pierson. This was last updated in 2016. But, I think the information is very good.

Dr. Pierson was one of the only veterinarians brave and dedicated enough to make a stand against the large veterinary diet companies and she got allot of flak for doing so. She graduated in 1985 and is currently licensed. Although she isn’t board certified in veterinary nutrition, I feel that may be due to her not pushing the veterinary diets.

When I worked at the cat hospital, the veterinarian there believed in what Dr. Pierson is trying to do to improve cat’s lives, and I do too. I have also seen what she states actually work well for cats.

The site she has is filled with information and she is good at explaining the information.

I think you may find some information that is beneficial.

Please do check with your veterinarian before making any changes to your cat’s diet or deviating from your veterinarian’s recommendations. After all, your vet has seen your cat and done an exam and will be the best person to advise you in caring for your cat.

I hope this helps some.

Cat Urinary Tract Diseases: Cystitis, Urethral Obstruction, Urinary Tract Infection

 

[Dee$kee]

On the HILLS website, it now claims the C/D multi care dissolves stones. This is the first I heard of that. I have posted below the link to first the S/D and then I have posted below a link to the Royal Canin S/O diet as well. There is no mention of that diet disolving

Hill's Prescription Diet s/d Wet Cat Food

Hill's Prescription Diet c/d Multicare Chicken & Vegetable Stew Cat Food



Feline Urinary SO® Moderate Calorie morsels in gravy | Royal Canin US

Then I have posted a link to an article written for veterinarians on a veterinary website that provides information to veterinarians and veterinary staff. DVM360. That organization also does allot of the continuing education seminars for veterinarians

Tips for managing feline urolithiasis from a feline practitioner

Then I have posted a link to cat info.org which is a site by Dr. Lisa Pierson. This was last updated in 2016. But, I think the information is very good.

Dr. Pierson was one of the only veterinarians brave and dedicated enough to make a stand against the large veterinary diet companies and she got allot of flak for doing so. She graduated in 1985 and is currently licensed. Although she isn’t board certified in veterinary nutrition, I feel that may be due to her not pushing the veterinary diets.

When I worked at the cat hospital, the veterinarian there believed in what Dr. Pierson is trying to do to improve cat’s lives, and I do too. I have also seen what she states actually work well for cats.

The site she has is filled with information and she is good at explaining the information.

I think you may find some information that is beneficial.

Please do check with your veterinarian before making any changes to your cat’s diet or deviating from your veterinarian’s recommendations. After all, your vet has seen your cat and done an exam and will be the best person to advise you in caring for your cat.

I hope this helps some.

Cat Urinary Tract Diseases: Cystitis, Urethral Obstruction, Urinary Tract Infection

Thank you those links are very informative! And proved my point I was stating previously, that prescription food is crap and that she should be eating wet food only.

This is the Royal Canin s/o dry food she was on first:
Feline Urinary SO® | Royal Canin US

This is Hills c/d dry food she is on currently:
Hill's Prescription Diet c/d Multicare with Chicken Dry Cat Food

Both claim to dissolve stones. But sounds like Hills s/d could be more effective. I’ll see if my vet has the canned kind of this. But very likely my cat won’t touch it. So I will see if I can get her to just eat non-prescription wet food exclusively.

 

[silent meowlook]

On the cat info.org site, she has lots of tips to get a cat that eats dry food to eat canned.

 

[Dee$kee]

On the cat info.org site, she has lots of tips to get a cat that eats dry food to eat canned.

I called my vet and turns out they don’t carry the S/D line, but said they will order it in for me. Called me back a few days later only to say that the S/D line has been discontinued. I am in Canada so I’m assuming it’s only being discontinued here?

I am extremely disappointed. I was holding out hope that this would be the one thing that works for her. I really didn’t want to put her through a costly surgery I can’t afford for something that could possibly be resolved with a diet change.

 

[silent meowlook]

Oh, I am so sorry it has been discontinued. I wonder why?