Biting Kitten- Nip Back?

[duckdodgers]

Since Stella was a baby I've had problems with her excessive "play biting".  She was taken from her family at 5-6 weeks, so doesn't seem to have learned what is appropriate and inappropriate play behavior.  I have heard that the proper thing to do in such a situation is to yelp/hiss as her and discontinue play immediately.  The hissing initially startled her and worked, but she seemed to become immune to that quickly.  Now if she bites me and I hiss at her she won't care at all.  She also does not respect Alafair (my old kitty) when Alafair rejects her attempts to play.  Alafair will repeatedly slap her in the face while hissing loudly, and Stella just stares her and continues the "game".  I always discontinue playing with her if she does this, and I never play rough with my own hands- only with a toy.  She doesn't seem to care.  None of this ever seems to be done in a malicious way.  From what I have gathered she just wants to play and doesn't know what not to do. 

I was having a discussion about his with a guy I know, and he suggested that I bite her back when she does this.  Not like chomp down on my kitten, but give her a little nip.  My first thought was that this may show her that biting is ok, and that she would continue to do so.  My second thought was that there's some validity to this.  I haven't been around very many litters of kittens, but if I remember right siblings will nip at each other when things get too rough between them.  What are your opinions of this?  I need to figure out some way to curb this behavior, but I'm certainly hesitant to go around biting my cat.  Not because I have a problem with putting my mouth on my cat (maybe I'm weird or something), but because it just seems unkind.  Has anyone ever heard of this before?

 

[Willowy]

It's been around, probably mostly for puppies. It's ridiculous, there's no way a cat (or a dog) is going to associate your ill-timed biting with their behavior. Plus I'd like to see you try it, that would be funny. . .:tongue2:. If Alafair's biting and slapping isn't dissuading her, silly human tricks aren't going to help either :lol3:.

All I can say is to keep doing what you're doing, maybe put her in the bathroom or other small room for a few minutes when she gets really crazy. She'll grow up and calm down after a while, and you don't want to risk doing anything that will make her mean or defensive.

 

[otto]

It takes time for a kitten to learn. Don't stop what you are doing. Thank goodness you asked here instead of taking such horrible advice. You are correct she is not "malicious". Kittens don't have that mental capacity.

Think about this: cats are the original copy cats. How is biting her going to teach her not to bite? It won't. It will teach her that since you bite, she should too. It may also teach her that you are to be feared, so she might start biting harder.

Cats don't do well with "discipline". It teaches them to be mean or fearful, or both. Training them with love and redirection and understanding is better.

It's good that you always have a toy of some kind in your hand. ALWAYS! Get a stuffed animal about her size, make sure it is kitten safe, and give her that to bite.

Learn her over-stimulation signals. Learn her limits. If she plays for five minutes and then starts to bite, only play for three minutes, then give her the stuffed animal.

If while playing or petting you see signs such as: ears go back, eyes get wide and fixated on some part of you, skin on the back twitching, tail lashing...stop what you are doing immediately. Give her the stuffed animal.

Kittens bite, in play, it is part of their learning process. The trick is to teach her that it is okay to bite her stuffed animal, but it is not okay to bite you.

When Alafair has had enough, and told her so, and she comes back for more, distract her with a string on a stick Game, with yourself. After you've run her around some, give her the stuffed animal.

Make sure the kitten is getting enough interactive play time from you. At least 4 half hour sessions a day with distance type toys. String on a stick, feather on a wand, crumpled paper balls thrown to be chased down or leaped up after. She needs to run and jump and climb during these Games.

 

[duckdodgers]

It's been around, probably mostly for puppies. It's ridiculous, there's no way a cat (or a dog) is going to associate your ill-timed biting with their behavior. Plus I'd like to see you try it, that would be funny. . .

. If Alafair's biting and slapping isn't dissuading her, silly human tricks aren't going to help either

.

All I can say is to keep doing what you're doing, maybe put her in the bathroom or other small room for a few minutes when she gets really crazy. She'll grow up and calm down after a while, and you don't want to risk doing anything that will make her mean or defensive.

For what it's worth, Alafair never bites her.  Just slaps her around and makes a loud ruckus

  I do put her away when she gets too wild, but that's generally when she's gone too far with assaulting her sister...

 

[otto]

For what it's worth, Alafair never bites her.  Just slaps her around and makes a loud ruckus :tongue2:   I do put her away when she gets too wild, but that's generally when she's gone too far with assaulting her sister...

See? Even the adult cat doesn't bite the kitten.

Don't "put her away" when Alafair is tired of the kitten's attention, PLAY with the kitten. She needs more attention, not less.

Putting her in a closed off room (if that's what you mean?) is not going to teach her anything, and it is not going to help her work off her kitten energy. She is not doing anything wrong, she is simply being a normal kitten. Eventually she will grow up, and the way she is treated and trained now is very important and will have a great impact on what kind of cat she becomes.

I can't stress this enough. Your kitten needs interactive play from you multiple times a day, play that gets her running and leaping and jumping and climbing. This is what will satisfy her endless kitten energy and help her be happy and well adjusted, and not pester the older cat, or get into other mischief, and it will help her learn to curb her biting, because she will be distracted with other Games.

 

[duckdodgers]

See? Even the adult cat doesn't bite the kitten.

Don't "put her away" when Alafair is tired of the kitten's attention, PLAY with the kitten. She needs more attention, not less.

Putting her in a closed off room (if that's what you mean?) is not going to teach her anything, and it is not going to help her work off her kitten energy. She is not doing anything wrong, she is simply being a normal kitten. Eventually she will grow up, and the way she is treated and trained now is very important and will have a great impact on what kind of cat she becomes.

I can't stress this enough. Your kitten needs interactive play from you multiple times a day, play that gets her running and leaping and jumping and climbing. This is what will satisfy her endless kitten energy and help her be happy and well adjusted, and not pester the older cat, or get into other mischief, and it will help her learn to curb her biting, because she will be distracted with other Games.

I will say that Alafair has certainly done remarkably well with this newcomer.  She's never been a social cat at all (only likes myself and my father), but she has never been one to hiss and has never bitten anyone, even when frightened.  She did pick up the hissing when STella got here, but not the biting!  Almost any interaction between her and Stella is too much- she'll get growly if the kitten comes within a few feet of her.

Sometimes I can't play with her when she gets too rambunctious.  In general I try to redirect her to a more constructive activity that doesn't involve bothering Alafair, but while I'm in the middle of cooking dinner or something I can't always interact.  I realize that her behavior is normal and I'm not putting her away to punish or train her by doing so, just trying to keep the old girl from going bonkers! 

Da Bird is our best friend.  I originally had problems with her merely "stalking" it and not burning off much energy, but I've found that I need to get more involved when using it.  As in running around the apartment and having her chase both myself and the bird, dangling it on her hanging tower so she has to jump up, back down, and back up repeatedly.  Same deal with the laser pointer.  She also has a vague idea of how to fetch.  She'll bring me a toy.  I'll throw it.  She'll race after it and play with it for awhile.  She then may or may not bring it back within a few minutes.  I try to keep that going as long as I can, but she'll eventually lose interest or lose the toy.  Her signs of overstimulation tend to be the traditional wide eyes and tail twitching, but she will also just stand there perfectly still with her mouth halfway open looking like a goofball 

  Sometimes she'll just be walking around, I'll pick her up, and she'll immediately go into "OMG attack!" mode. 

Also, I'm glad you replied again.  I was apparently in the process of replying the first time when you posted first, so I missed it!

Certainly glad I asked about the biting back thing.  I was quite skeptical, but wanted to make sure there wasn't some real validity to his argument. 

 

[otto]

Keep a box of throwable toys handy for when you are occupied with something else. Throw the toys from the box for Stella to chase down. Shutting her away will only make her "worse".

I do this with Queen Eva. Queen Eva had three doting adult cats to play with, plus me, but still needed a ton of structured interactive play time with me. Still does, in fact, and she is almost 3 years old now.

If she didn't (doesn't) get enough play time with me, she gets into mischief. Such as tight-roping curtain rods, or knocking things out of cupboards.

Queen Eva (and the adult cats) get three interactive play times a day, and they know when these times are, (before breakfast, when I first get home in the evening, and after all evening chores are done) but at the end of the night, when I read for a while on the couch before I go to bed, I use the box of throw toys. I read, and throw toys for her to chase. She LOVES this game and positions herself all over the apartment, to show me where she wants me to throw the toys. Queen Eva also gets an extra play time in the morning, right before I leave for the day.

Cats do best with a routine. The four interactive play times work best if they are done at the same times every day. In a week or so Stella will begin to know when these times are, and expect them. It will help her to know she will have these times, she will be more likley to occupy herself at other times.

But when she can't occupy herself, that is when the box of throwing toys comes in handy. While you are fixing a meal, simply reach in the box and grab a toy and toss it for her to chase down. Try to toss it somewhere that a challenge will be given her, down a hall, into a room where she might be able to bat the toy around a while before coming back for another.

This works when you are doing any household chores. Also, when you are doing stuff like putting away laundry, dusting, picking up, whatever, you can be dragging a string on a stick toy around with you. There are lots of ways to give her the exercise and mental stimulation she needs, even when you are busy.

But even with that, there should be at least three times a day when your attention is for Stella and her Games, and only Stella and her Games. And remember, you want her running and jumping and leaping and climbing, not just beating up a toy in your hand.

But also get on the floor with her, put yourself at her level. Toss things for her to leap into the air after. Toss things for her to climb and jump after. Toss things for her to chase.

Set things up to help stimulate her imagination. A Box Fort. A Paper Bag Tent. (cut off handles) A blanket or rustly brown paper draped over a chair.

Make sure she has elevated perches. Cats like to be up high. My cats can run around the entire apartment without ever touching the floor. From cat tower to chair to table to couch to book cats to cat tree, to other cat perch to desk, to bookcase...and so on.

 

[duckdodgers]

Good idea with the toy box.  I have been getting her dog toys as they are more wrestling sized as well as the smaller throwing toys designed for cats.  She is big on the paper bag/cloth grocery bad games.  This little girl definitely seems like the kind of cat that will stay mischevious and active for quite some time, but then again, what kitten doesn't? 

  I'll work on having her playtimes be more schedule-based.  She always gets play time before I leave for the day and before we all go to bed, but I guess the in-between ones need some better timing and structure.