Beginner's question to raw diet

[oyster]

I have been reading up on the PMR diet and would like to emulate it for my 2 and 3 year old cats. They have been eating commercial wet food since they were kittens but enjoy 2-3 chicken wings per week. I am sure they will love a raw diet.
I have a few questions before I start the diet and wean them off commercial food.
1. I don't want to purchase a grinder. Is it possible to feed them chicken wings/necks and other meaty bones according to the correct ratios per cat weight/intake and fulfill the calcium/potassium requirement? Wouldn't that be better than bonemeal or eggshell powder?
2. Has anyone switched to a raw diet overnight without the slow introduction? Does that cause problems? I think my cats would enjoy it immediately but I plan on including a little muscle meat (chicken thigh meat) with their regular meals. However, I hope to wean them within a week. Is that too ambitious?
3. I cannot get lite Morton salt where I live. We use sea salt or rock salt for our own food. I have read countless articles about the need for salt in a cat's diet because of iodine. I plan on supplementing with kelp powder. Do I really need salt? If yes, then can I use sea salt?
I would appreciate any other tips. My head is hurting from doing so many calculations and Math was never my strong point.
Thank you so much.

 

[Tobermory]

I can’t speak to your first question, but regarding the second, I switched my cats overnight without any trouble. They gobbled it right up and begged for more! But you know how cats are. Yours could act like you’re trying to poison them. But you’ve already been giving them chicken wings so it sounds like they might like the new food.

The problem with kelp, as I understand it, is that the iodine levels can vary quite a bit but tend to be high. That’s a problem for the thyroid gland. I wouldn’t want to risk hyperthyroidism in my kitties. So I think you do need salt. Unfortunately, I can’t tell you how much.

I hope someone will come along who will give you more help!

 

[Box of Rain]

I have been reading up on the PMR diet and would like to emulate it for my 2 and 3 year old cats. They have been eating commercial wet food since they were kittens but enjoy 2-3 chicken wings per week. I am sure they will love a raw diet.
I have a few questions before I start the diet and wean them off commercial food.
1. I don't want to purchase a grinder. Is it possible to feed them chicken wings/necks and other meaty bones according to the correct ratios per cat weight/intake and fulfill the calcium/potassium requirement? Wouldn't that be better than bonemeal or eggshell powder?
2. Has anyone switched to a raw diet overnight without the slow introduction? Does that cause problems? I think my cats would enjoy it immediately but I plan on including a little muscle meat (chicken thigh meat) with their regular meals. However, I hope to wean them within a week. Is that too ambitious?
3. I cannot get lite Morton salt where I live. We use sea salt or rock salt for our own food. I have read countless articles about the need for salt in a cat's diet because of iodine. I plan on supplementing with kelp powder. Do I really need salt? If yes, then can I use sea salt?
I would appreciate any other tips. My head is hurting from doing so many calculations and Math was never my strong point.
Thank you so much.

My thoughts.

I believe that it is far preferable not to grind food (and especially bones) unless there is good cause to do so (such as having a cat with bad teeth or similar issues).

By giving a cat appropriate soft edible bone (with meat on the bone) a cat needs to "work" in order to eat. This stimulates the mind and--critically--the tearing, crunching, and chewing helps keep the teeth, gums, and muscles of the jaw strong and healthy. This is one of the paramount reasons I choose to raw feed.

It may help to hit the bones with a cleaver or rubber mallet (etc) if the novice is unused to eating bone. I expect you will see their abilities grow as the dental structure develops strength. I can't emphasize how much power cats (and dogs) develop strong teeth, gums, and muscles from eating raw edible bone over time. It is quite something.

I switched our Desmond to raw immediately. His first meal actually consisted of a plate that had raw chicken, raw pork, cooked chicken, cooked pork, and a dollop of the canned food that the foster had been providing. He ate them in that order. It has been PMR ever since. No transition.

There is plenty of salt in the brine of almost all chicken and other poultry. I occasionally add a little kelp or nori, but--as others have noted--iodine can be overdone (causing thyroid issues), so be mindful.

Best wishes on your journey.

 

[oyster]

Thank you, both, so much for your suggestions.
How much kelp should one add to their daily diet? I read on some blog that a knifepoint or a smidgen (although that is so vague) is enough for a week's supply of food. My cats are in the 10 and 12 lbs each.
I will omit all salt for now until I get some other info. from a good source.
So, it is ok to debone the thigh and drumsticks (if I can manage that) and add chicken wings and occasionally, necks to their diet.

 

[Box of Rain]

Thank you, both, so much for your suggestions.
How much kelp should one add to their daily diet? I read on some blog that a knifepoint or a smidgen (although that is so vague) is enough for a week's supply of food. My cats are in the 10 and 12 lbs each.
I will omit all salt for now until I get some other info. from a good source.
So, it is ok to debone the thigh and drumsticks (if I can manage that) and add chicken wings and occasionally, necks to their diet.

I would not want to give you misinformation on the amount of kelp/seaweed. I supplement with small amounts and do it irregularly. Not exactly "scientific."

Sure, you can debone thighs and drumsticks and serve other bone-in pieces. That's what I do with dark meat turkey.

Yesterday (as I do periodically), I gave Desmond a whole chicken leg, just as it comes. He is a relatively small cat, and it takes him awhile, but he tore off all the meat and then crushed and ate the ends off the bones. Typically he quits when he's consumed what looks to me like the appropriate amount of bone, but last night I had to confiscate it (as he seemed like he was in the mood to keep going).

The point being, they will get stronger and more able to take on more challenging bone over time.

Most chicken sold for humans has already has salt (brine) added. Check the labels for chicken sold in packs.

To be extra-conservative when starting cats on edible bone, you can remove the extreme tip (the sharp pointy end) of the wings, to remove the remote chance they swallow that little bit whole.

Bill

 

[oyster]

Update: The cats have been eating raw chicken for a week now. I tried chicken wings and a drumstick with both cats. They demolished the bones in no time. The 2 yr. old left parts of the drumstick but the 3 yr. old ate everything.
I am just having a rough time figuring out how much bone to give according to the 5-10% ratio.
Thanks for all the help.

 

[Box of Rain]

First, congratulations on your cat's ability to destroy a chicken drumstick. That's outstanding.

Now the "however" part. A chicken drumstick is from 27-33% bone, you want to target about 6% bone. Too much bone in one sitting can constipate a cat.

I would pull the bone once the cat has chewed off the end pats of the bone and not let it consume the whole leg bone.

Bill

 

[oyster]

Bill,
Where do you find the bone % etc. for raw meaty bones? I have seen info on perfectlyrawsome.com but I like to have some more places to back up the research.
Also, any tips for calculating supplements, especially iodine, Vit, B, and Vit. E. I have used a dozen calculators by now.
Unfortunately, I can't find a nutritionist near me who specializes in cat raw diet. We have a huge number available for dog raw diets.

 

[Box of Rain]

Bill,
Where do you find the bone % etc. for raw meaty bones? I have seen info on perfectlyrawsome.com but I like to have some more places to back up the research.
Also, any tips for calculating supplements, especially iodine, Vit, B, and Vit. E. I have used a dozen calculators by now.
Unfortunately, I can't find a nutritionist near me who specializes in cat raw diet. We have a huge number available for dog raw diets.

If you want to do a deep dive into feline (and potentially canine) nutrition, the recognized scientific authority is the National Research Council of the American Academies of Sciences.

The National Research Council's Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats (2006) is pretty much the gold standard used by groups such as AFFCO (the Association of American Feed Control Officials) and commercial pet food manufacturers and animal nutritionists.

National Research Council has put out condensed versions for download, Perfectly Rawsome (at the link you provided) has their own synopsis, and the entire tomb can be purchased as a hard copy book or downloaded as a free pdf at places like VetBooks.

The USDA has an online database for the nutrients in most foods, called FoodData Central, that one can use to compare the know nutritional requirements of felines (from the NRC) against sample PRM meals. I can't say this isn't a process or somewhat time intensive. But when I started raw feeding (my dog) nine years ago, I went through the process as "due diligence." What I discovered then was that PRM meals were virtually optimal.

I admit that I have not done the same analysis with our raw fed cat, and instead have focused on the "differences" between cats and dogs (such as taurine being an essential nutrient with felines) and making sure to choose items that fill the known needs via food.

Here is the USDA Food Central link: FoodData Central

Note, many foods you will want to look up are in the SR Legacy Foods section.

Bill

 

[oyster]

Thank you so much. I guess I have to get into animal nutrition more seriously. I have already spent 3 weeks on this and feel like I am circling the issues without coming to any conclusion.

 

[oyster]

I have been reading a lot of info. and watching some animal nutritionist videos.
I am going to switch to buying meat at our local butcher so I can follow the PMR model-- but I am still confused about adding supplements to daily or weekly meals.
How do you all add supplements in such small amounts? For example, iodine or kelp powder is recommended at bout 0.16 grams/day for my 12.4 pound cat (that is, if I got the info. correctly). How should I add this small amount in his food daily? If I do it weekly, it still comes to about a gram. Should I only add it once a week in big swoop?
Same thing with bones--have tons of chicken wings and chicken feet sitting in my freezer. Should I only allow these bones 2-3 times a week to fulfill the 8-10% requirement per day? I can't exactly cut them into exact measurements daily.
If I could figure these two things out, I'd start raw feeding a 100% tomorrow!

 

[Box of Rain]

I have been reading a lot of info. and watching some animal nutritionist videos.
I am going to switch to buying meat at our local butcher so I can follow the PMR model-- but I am still confused about adding supplements to daily or weekly meals.
How do you all add supplements in such small amounts? For example, iodine or kelp powder is recommended at bout 0.16 grams/day for my 12.4 pound cat (that is, if I got the info. correctly). How should I add this small amount in his food daily? If I do it weekly, it still comes to about a gram. Should I only add it once a week in big swoop?
Same thing with bones--have tons of chicken wings and chicken feet sitting in my freezer. Should I only allow these bones 2-3 times a week to fulfill the 8-10% requirement per day? I can't exactly cut them into exact measurements daily.
If I could figure these two things out, I'd start raw feeding a 100% tomorrow!

Let's start with bone and the example of the chicken feet that you have. I'm hoping a visual may help you.

A standard large chicken foot split 8 ways would give you the approx PMR bone ratio for one average meal (assuming two meals per day) using the PRM ratio of 6% bone (not 8-10%)

Let's do the math.

A 12.4 pound cat weighs approx 5625 grams.

One (of 2) daily meals of PRM raw is typically 1% of body weight = 56 grams.

One standard large chicken foot weights 45 grams. Chicken feet are approx 60% bone / 40% "meat." That's 27 grams of bone and 18 grams of meat per foot

Therefore the average foot split 8 ways is 3.37 grams of bone. 6% of a 5625 "meal" is 337.5. So this is "spot-on."

Total Meal (one of two daily meals at 56 grams) to be completely balanced) would be:

3.375 grams of bone (from the 1/8 foot)
2.25 grams of "meat" (from the 1/8 foot)
5.6 grams of organs (alternating between liver and other "secreting" organs)
44.47 grams of meat

Does this help give you a sense of how much bone is needed per meal?

After a while one gets a visual sense of it and weighing and measuring (at least for me) is more optional. But a kitchen scale is helpful starting out.

Not every meal has to be perfectly "balanced." I tend to try to make my meals fit PMR ratios pretty closely, but if I know I serve a meal that is "off" in some way, I compensate.

Chicken wings are not an item I use regularly, as they are tricky to portion. An average (whole chicken) wing has enough bone for 10 meals (assuming twice daily feeding). As a dental/recreational meal, as sectioned wing part can be given, but I pull it when the meat is stripped and the cat has consumed what is in my visual estimation the correct amount of bone.

One of my best set of tools for raw feeding is having a meat cleaver (nothing fancy, just stout) and a cheap rubber mallet, and a raw-food-only cutting board.

Bill

 

[Box of Rain]

oyster

As to iodine, I personally don't supplement with iodine. I do fairly regularly provide some sort of seafood. Typically either small pieces of freshly cooked salmon, or small portions of canned mackerel, or a mussel (or two), and sometimes a scallop. All are sources of iodine.

Plus, I do serve chicken necks (which are easy to portion) and also turkey necks (which can be "slivered" thinly once frozen using a cleaver and mallet). My understanding is that these necks containing thyroid, so I moderate their use to not trigger hyperthyroidism.

If the cat has not either either seafood or necks in sometime I will sprinkle a little kelp, but that's rare here.

A cat getting too much iodine, when they are prone to going hyperthyroid, makes me cautious. I also claim no expertise on iodine supplementation. I'm going off feeding aforementioned foods, unless blood work suggests a change.

Bill

 

[oyster]

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. I am so relieved and can start portioning the bones. I finally get it. Great tutorial. Hope the admins keep it for future members interested in raw feeding.
IMO, most raw feeding is geared towards grinding everything down so it resembles canned food. I did the same for my first foray into raw feeding. It was definitely easier to make a batch and freeze it.
However, I prefer the PMR as it helps immensely with dental health. My 17 yr. old cat has hardly any teeth left and was fed canned all his life--when I didn't know better.
So thank you so much. By the way, do you ever just feed a whole bone and then, not feed any for some days to balance it out? I had been feeding half a wing (cut at the joint) 2-3 times a week before I knew anything about raw diets, supplementing, and balancing meals. Is that an option when one feels "lazy" to balance everything out?

 

[Box of Rain]

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. I am so relieved and can start portioning the bones. I finally get it. Great tutorial. Hope the admins keep it for future members interested in raw feeding.
IMO, most raw feeding is geared towards grinding everything down so it resembles canned food. I did the same for my first foray into raw feeding. It was definitely easier to make a batch and freeze it.
However, I prefer the PMR as it helps immensely with dental health. My 17 yr. old cat has hardly any teeth left and was fed canned all his life--when I didn't know better.
So thank you so much. By the way, do you ever just feed a whole bone and then, not feed any for some days to balance it out? I had been feeding half a wing (cut at the joint) 2-3 times a week before I knew anything about raw diets, supplementing, and balancing meals. Is that an option when one feels "lazy" to balance everything out?

I'm glad to help.

As to your question about whether I "ever just feed a whole bone and then, not feed any for some days to balance it out?"

I have, but generally not purposefully. Meaning, I got confident that Desmond was a good "self-regulator" when it comes to bone. I have (and still do) make meals of items like whole drumsticks. They are a tremendous workout (and I'm convinced are also good "mentally") and after supervising many such meals. I got used to him quitting at almost the perfect point where my estimation said was "on point."

But there have been two occasions when I was not careful, and I found him in the process of destroying the whole bone. You may have had a similar experience recently. Mercifully, he had no ill effects. But too much bone can cause cats to get plugged up.

This is not something I would do intentionally. But in these cases I did withhold bone long enough to compensate. And sometimes id I know a meal is bone-heavy, I will skip bone (and vice versa).

I have known lots of people who feed dogs "over time" (meaning giving very imbalanced individual meals but hitting the target over, say, a week). I have never been comfortable with that personally. Too much/too little bone or organ can cause GI distress in raw fed animals, and I've adopted a very conservative approach myself. Knock wood, neither dog (long term) or cat (since October 2021) has ever had any issues.

If you do opt for some "balance over time" experimentation, pay close attention to the cat's stools. Are the high bone meals especially hard? (Note: even Desmond's stools fed "balanced" 6% bone meals are pretty firm, as the "meat is pretty well digested). And are the boneless stools "soft." You could experiment.


As to teeth. I took my 9 year old Vizsla (dog) into see our excellent (traditional) vet recently for the first time since Covid for a wellness visit. Our vet has "breed knowledge," and actually owed our Chester's grand-sire. She was a bit skeptical of "raw" when we first saw her when Chester was 9 or 10 weeks old. She was especially skeptical about providing the correct mineral balances, but when I reeled off that NRC suggestions are for a 1.2 to 1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio and briefly described how I was going to hit that target, I never heard another objection. But still, not a "holistic vet" or one "endorsing" my raw feeding.

So when we saw her recently, she was astounded at Chester's dental health. His teeth at 9 years are still white and virtually tartar free. And the gums are pink, non-swollen, and obviously healthy. Given most dogs have periodontal disease by the time they reach three, it was quite a contrast with what she's used to seeing. Plus he's lean and strong. If not for the beginning of a little bit of whitening in his muzzle (what we Vizsla owners call "sugar face"), he looks like a young dog.

Anyway, the vet said, "whatever you are doing, keep it up."

My understanding is that the dental situation is even more dire with cats that is is with dogs (and dogs are bad).

There are many reasons I raw feed, but trying to maintain optimal dental health is at the top of the list.

So far with Desmond, who we've had for 16 months (and who is a young cat) his teeth and gums too stellar. Fingers-crossed.

I do believe that it is better for dental health not to grind meat and bones if one has the option not to do so.

Bill

 

[Dakera]

oyster

As to iodine, I personally don't supplement with iodine. I do fairly regularly provide some sort of seafood. Typically either small pieces of freshly cooked salmon, or small portions of canned mackerel, or a mussel (or two), and sometimes a scallop. All are sources of iodine.

Plus, I do serve chicken necks (which are easy to portion) and also turkey necks (which can be "slivered" thinly once frozen using a cleaver and mallet). My understanding is that these necks containing thyroid, so I moderate their use to not trigger hyperthyroidism.

If the cat has not either either seafood or necks in sometime I will sprinkle a little kelp, but that's rare here.

A cat getting too much iodine, when they are prone to going hyperthyroid, makes me cautious. I also claim no expertise on iodine supplementation. I'm going off feeding aforementioned foods, unless blood work suggests a change.

Bill

Iodine intervention
Sorry to intervene but I feel the need to intervene with a small parenthesis, due to personal experience. Too much iodine is NOT a cause of hyperthyroidism. The cause for this illness is yet to be ascertained (but it is most likely due to environmental factors rather than nutrition), and in fact, the worldwide leading specialist in feline hyperthyroidism positions himself against the claims of Hills and their catfood for hyperthyroidism with minimal amounts of iodine (the specialist being Dr Marc E. Peterson).
In the NRC it is written that there are only a few data available on which to base a recommendation, and it's probably ok to give 321 micrograms iodine per 1000kcal metabolic energy, allowing a safety factor of 10% to correct for variations in energy intake.
Now to be able and calculate that all, well…
I recommend a course here: HOME. It's pretty complete.
I personally grind my cats' food, they are old and one of them has lost some of her teeth.

 

[Box of Rain]

Iodine intervention
Sorry to intervene but I feel the need to intervene with a small parenthesis, due to personal experience. Too much iodine is NOT a cause of hyperthyroidism. The cause for this illness is yet to be ascertained (but it is most likely due to environmental factors rather than nutrition), and in fact, the worldwide leading specialist in feline hyperthyroidism positions himself against the claims of Hills and their catfood for hyperthyroidism with minimal amounts of iodine (the specialist being Dr Marc E. Peterson).
In the NRC it is written that there are only a few data available on which to base a recommendation, and it's probably ok to give 321 micrograms iodine per 1000kcal metabolic energy, allowing a safety factor of 10% to correct for variations in energy intake.
Now to be able and calculate that all, well…
I recommend a course here: HOME. It's pretty complete.
I personally grind my cats' food, they are old and one of them has lost some of her teeth.

As I stated, I claim no expertise on iodine supplementation. Experts seem in conflict over the role of high amounts of iodine plays in hyperthyroidism and I tend to be conservative about potentially causing unintended consequences by over supplementing.

Bill

 

[Dakera]

As I stated, I claim no expertise on iodine supplementation. Experts seem in conflict over the role of high amounts of iodine plays in hyperthyroidism and I tend to be conservative about potentially causing unintended consequences by over supplementing.

Bill

None of us are experts, but again, for having intensely informed myself on the hyperthyroidism issue, I can assure you that iodine is no cause for this illness, the experts that have conducted a limited number of trials have found no cause between high iodine intake and hyperthyroidism. In fact it is advised to give the same amount as regularly as possible in order to protect the organism from environmental things (think here of radioactivity).
Again, sorry for the parenthesis!

 

[Box of Rain]

None of us are experts, but again, for having intensely informed myself on the hyperthyroidism issue, I can assure you that iodine is no cause for this illness, the experts that have conducted a limited number of trials have found no cause between high iodine intake and hyperthyroidism. In fact it is advised to give the same amount as regularly as possible in order to protect the organism from environmental things (think here of radioactivity).
Again, sorry for the parenthesis!

Is it your position that feeding iodine in levels that far exceeds the NRC recommendations is risk free?

Are their sources you can recommend that back that claim?

I don't claim to know, but the experts seem to disagree about the potential involvement of high iodine levels and incidence hyperthyroidism.

Bill

 

[Dakera]

Is it your position that feeding iodine in levels that far exceeds the NRC recommendations is risk free?

Are their sources you can recommend that back that claim?

I don't claim to know, but the experts seem to disagree about the potential involvement of high iodine levels and incidence hyperthyroidism.

Bill

Absolutely no, my position is to stay within the NRC recommendations.
However, the NRC also says quite clearly that there have been no observable side-effects of high iodine intakes FOR CATS (for dogs it's quite different).
I can send you sources of course! though just a selection, otherwise it will pollute this thread…

From 2010:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1016/j.jfms.2010.07.011

(where it states that "because of the multiple risk factors that have been described for feline hyperthyroidism, it is likely that more than one factor is involved in its pathogenesis. Continuous, lifelong exposure to environmental thyroid disruptor chemicals or goitrogens in food or water, acting together in an additive or synergistic manner, may first lead to euthyroid goiter and then to autonomous adenomatous hyperplasia, thyroid adenoma and hyperthyroidism." and that, curiously, "cats consuming commercial foods without iodine supplementation were more than four times as likely to develop hyperthyroidism compared with cats that ate iodine-supplemented foods." for example). For quite some time, the canned food was the major culprit for hyperthyroidism and it was thought that the BPA of the can linings and/or the soy isoflavones used for this type of food were the major cause.

From 2012:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X12464462

From 2014:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X14556558?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.2

(a short phrase: A soybean-supplemented and iodine-deficient diet synergistically stimulated the growth of the thyroid gland in rats; however, a further study suggested that this effect was not due to the isoflavones in soybean alone. The inhibition of thyroperoxidase due to isoflavones genistein and daidzein was reversed following the addition of iodine in studies performed in vitro.54,55 These data suggest that a goitrogenic effect of soy is possible when there is a deficiency in dietary iodine.)

A very interesting one from 2021:

Management of Feline Hyperthyroidism and the Need to Prevent Oxidative Stress: What Can We Learn from Human Research?

Feline hyperthyroidism is a clinical syndrome related to an excessive production of thyroid hormones, and it is considered as a spontaneous animal model for human thyrotoxicosis. Many shared features between the feline and the human disease have been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From 2022 about iodine fluctuation:

Estimating short and longer-term exposure of domestic cats to dietary iodine fluctuation - Scientific Reports

Hyperthyroidism is a common endocrinopathy of domestic felines. In humans, toxic nodular goitre is pathophysiologically similar to feline hyperthyroidism and can be caused by chronically low or fluctuating dietary iodine intake. The aetiopathogenesis of feline hyperthyroidism is not known, but...

www.nature.com

the researchgate page of dr Marc Peterson:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mark-Peterson-28