Basic raw menu to start with

[my-boy-jasper]

I have been introducing my kitten Jasper to raw food for a few months now. He is about 8-9 months old and weighs 4.5kgs (9.9 pounds)and doesn't look overweight (though he has a decent layer of fat on him). I am currently feeding him a mix of canned, commercial raw, and raw chunks of meat. He has a good appetite and a typical day looks a bit like this:

6am - 100gms (3.5oz) canned food.

11am - 50gms (1.75oz) canned or commercial raw

4pm - 50gms (1.75oz) canned or commercial raw

8pm - 50 - 100gms (1.75 - 3.5oz) raw meat or commercial raw

And maybe a late night snack if he had smaller meals during the day and he seems hungry.

He will happily eat chicken liver, chicken heart, chicken giblets, beef kidney, and chicken, beef, and kangaroo meat. He will eat chicken necks only if I smash them up and cut into two pieces. Well he might eat it whole but not without running around the house with it first.

Assuming he ends up weighing about 5.5kgs (12 pounds) as an adult, and I feed him up to 4% of body weight, that would be 220gms (7.8oz) per day. Is that too much? He is currently eating about 300gms (10.5oz) a day but I will start reducing his meal sizes over the next few months.

I have been gradually increasing the amount of raw meat I give him over the last month and so it's really time I start balancing it properly. I think for simplicities sake I will start by giving him 100gms (3.5oz) of balanced raw each day, using the frankenprey model. And the rest will be canned or commercial raw. Then when I am more confident I will increase the daily proportion of frankenprey raw.

So I've come up with what I think is balanced for 100gms (3.5oz). The most confusing part is figuring out how much bone is in chicken necks. I will stick with chicken necks for now but plan to introduce him to different bone-in parts (that's also confusing me but that's a different story). Ok, so I weighed a chicken neck and it came out at 23gms (0.8oz). Using the chart in this thread http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263570/composition-of-proteins-bone-skin-fat   I figured that an average chicken neck has 8gms (0.3oz) of bone and 15gms (0.5oz) of meat. So 100gms of balanced raw might look like this, I hope:

1 chicken neck (23gms, inc. 8gms of bone and 15gms meat)

5gms liver

5gms kidney

33gms muscle meat (including heart, giblets, other meat)

And that's 82% meat, 8% bone, 5% liver, and 5% secreting organ. How does this look as a starting point?

I figure I can measure this out into little baggies and freeze.

I am worried about whether the bone in a chicken neck is consistent enough to use that as a guide. Because I am worried about getting the calcium right, I feel better if I continue to include some canned and/or commercial raw. But I want him to eat whole bones for dental health and because I think that having to 'work' for his food is a good thing from time to time. So I hope to try him on different bones but am thoroughly confused about the whole calcium ratio thing with different types of bone, and whether there are bones that are not recommended for cats.

 

[vball91]

 
So I've come up with what I think is balanced for 100gms (3.5oz). The most confusing part is figuring out how much bone is in chicken necks. I will stick with chicken necks for now but plan to introduce him to different bone-in parts (that's also confusing me but that's a different story). Ok, so I weighed a chicken neck and it came out at 23gms (0.8oz). Using the chart in this thread http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263570/composition-of-proteins-bone-skin-fat   I figured that an average chicken neck has 8gms (0.3oz) of bone and 15gms (0.5oz) of meat. So 100gms of balanced raw might look like this, I hope:

1 chicken neck (23gms, inc. 8gms of bone and 15gms meat)

5gms liver

5gms kidney

33gms muscle meat (including heart, giblets, other meat)

And that's 82% meat, 8% bone, 5% liver, and 5% secreting organ. How does this look as a starting point?

I think it sounds like a good plan, but I'm confused about the numbers above. 23gms + 5gms + 5gms + 33gms do not equal 100gms. I think you need 67gms of muscle meat not 33. Then the rest of calculations work (82% meat, 8% bone, etc.).

As for the calcium thing, using bone, it's virtually impossible to figure out the calcium to phosphorus ratio. It's one reason why some raw feeders use eggshell powder or calcium hydroxyapatite instead of bone. There's a discussion about it here. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs

One option is to use bone sometimes and use a calcium supplement per above at other times.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

 
I think it sounds like a good plan, but I'm confused about the numbers above. 23gms + 5gms + 5gms + 33gms do not equal 100gms. I think you need 67gms of muscle meat not 33. Then the rest of calculations work (82% meat, 8% bone, etc.).

As for the calcium thing, using bone, it's virtually impossible to figure out the calcium to phosphorus ratio. It's one reason why some raw feeders use eggshell powder or calcium hydroxyapatite instead of bone. There's a discussion about it here. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs

One option is to use bone sometimes and use a calcium supplement per above at other times.

LOL! Yes you're right, I stuffed up that calculation. I thought 33gms seemed a little low but didn't double check. 33gms is just the neck, liver and organ summed. Duh! It should read:

1 chicken neck (23gms, inc. 8gms of bone and 15gms meat)

5gms liver

5gms kidney

67gms muscle meat (including heart, giblets, other meat)

I was actually thinking of alternating between a calcium substitute and bone-in-meals, so I'll do some more research on that. Eggshells seems the most economical way to go, although it looks really difficult to measure out such a tiny amount for 100gms of raw meat and organ.

I know that one way of telling if there is too much calcium is constipation. Is it safe to say that if stools are regular and not loose, then the calcium is about right? Or in other words, are healthy stools are good indicator that calcium is balanced? I just have this overwhelming fear of causing health issues through under or over doing certain nutrients.

 

[vball91]

 I was actually thinking of alternating between a calcium substitute and bone-in-meals, so I'll do some more research on that. Eggshells seems the most economical way to go, although it looks really difficult to measure out such a tiny amount for 100gms of raw meat and organ.
I know that one way of telling if there is too much calcium is constipation. Is it safe to say that if stools are regular and not loose, then the calcium is about right? Or in other words, are healthy stools are good indicator that calcium is balanced? I just have this overwhelming fear of causing health issues through under or over doing certain nutrients.

There are mini measuring spoons that go down to 1/64 tsp  that make it easier to measure the eggshell powder.

Stool consistency has been noted as one way of telling if there is too much bone in the diet. I'm not sure that it's also indicative of too much calcium in the diet since although the amount of bone and calcium are relative, it's not the same thing.

 I think 8% is a good starting point for bone. If you are also going to use a calcium supplement to balance, then I think you'll be fine on the calcium.

Oh, and about types of bones: generally, softer smaller bones like chicken ribs, necks, smaller two parts of wings are recommended. Rabbit, quail and Cornish game hen bones are good too. Nothing larger.

 

[mschauer]

Yeah, the numbers aren't adding up for me either. If I understand what you have is :

(assuming the chicken neck includes skin)

  8 g bone (~36% of 23 g)

15 g chicken neck meat, skin, fat (23 g - 8 g)

33 g muscle meat

  5 g liver

  5 g kidney

-------------------------

66 g total

bone content = 8 / 66 = 12% 

liver content = 5 / 66 = 7.5%

kidney content = 5 / 66 = 7.5%

meat content = 48 / 66 = 73%

Edit - I didn't see your second post before I posted!

 

[mschauer]

I know that one way of telling if there is too much calcium is constipation. Is it safe to say that if stools are regular and not loose, then the calcium is about right? 

Absolutely not! Excess bone can cause constipation because the excess is excreted in the feces. 

You can feed a healthy cat a diet that has absolutely no bone and its stool will be perfect.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

Ah I see. I had thought that the constipation was caused by too much calcium. I will have to read up on that.

One last question. With rabbit, quail, and Cornish hen bones - is it all bones of the whole animal that are ok? And is it ok to smash those up a bit as well? I can't say I know what the two smaller parts of a chicken wing are since I don't eat meat. But I can get some and probably figure it out.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

 
Absolutely not! Excess bone can cause constipation because the excess is excreted in the feces.

You can feed a healthy cat a diet that has absolutely no bone and its stool will be perfect.

Thanks

 I still have a long way to go in figuring this out!

 

[mschauer]

 
Ah I see. I had thought that the constipation was caused by too much calcium. I will have to read up on that.

The calcium comes from the bone. Bone is largely composed of minerals. Excreting too high a volume of minerals, regardless of what they are, can cause constipation.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

 
The calcium comes from the bone. Bone is largely composed of minerals. Excreting too high a volume of minerals, regardless of what they are, can cause constipation.

That's why I love this site! I could have spent hours reading to have learnt that.

 

[vball91]

 
One last question. With rabbit, quail, and Cornish hen bones - is it all bones of the whole animal that are ok? And is it ok to smash those up a bit as well? I can't say I know what the two smaller parts of a chicken wing are since I don't eat meat. But I can get some and probably figure it out.

Yes, I believe all bones of the smaller animals are fine to feed. You can chop them into meal sized pieces. If they are too big, most cats won't eat them, just gnaw the meat off. It is ok to smash them up a little but as much possible, leave the bone in a meat/skin/fat packet. That makes it a) more palatable and b) less dangerous without sharp bones sticking out. A chicken wing usually comes in 3 pieces, a drummette (looks like a mini drumstick), a middle piece with 2 flat bones and an end piece. The drummette's bone is a little thick for most cats, but the other two pieces are usually fine.

 

[mschauer]

 

 
The calcium comes from the bone. Bone is largely composed of minerals. Excreting too high a volume of minerals, regardless of what they are, can cause constipation.

That's why I love this site! I could have spent hours reading to have learnt that.

Back when I used whole bone I would sometimes find what looked *exactly* like pieces of white blackboard chalk in the litter box. Same brittle consistency.  It drove me nuts trying to figure out how much bone is enough without being too much. That's why I stopped using whole bone!

 

[my-boy-jasper]

Thanks so much. This is so daunting. I'll begin with the plan I described above (with the right calculations!) and look into alternating eggshells with chicken necks. I know I'll be back with more questions.

 

[meranaldar]

I've read that chicken necks are about 36% bone, which is pretty much in line with the numbers you posted (35%), though I'm surprised it weighed 23g total, they must be much smaller than what I've found (which my cat would probably like, the ones I get vary a lot from about 50-100g).

Wings, according to http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/s...&qlookup=&offset=&format=Full&new=&measureby=  are 46% bone, although I assume that includes all 3 parts.

I also hate the uncertainty of not knowing how much bone is in things, if only humans ate bone too, then there would be a lot more data available.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

Yeah I imagine the weight of chicken necks vary quite a bit. I weighed a few and averaged it out. Then another random one I picked weighed 23gms too. I bet it would vary by supplier and even batch. One possible issue with my calculation is that there is no skin on the chicken necks I have, but I think the 36% bone estimate is from skin on ones? So the bone % may well be higher in the ones I have. I got them from the Woolworths in a packet of like 50 chicken necks. I plan on going to the fresh food market and looking for better ones when I run out. I'm dubious about supermarket meats and the suppliers they use (ethically) but that's a different issue altogether. Funny thing as I'm vegetarian, and even stepping into the meat hall at the market is another world to me. I have to circle around for a bit before I get the courage to go up and ask potentially stupid questions, like "do you have free range chicken necks?"

 I have no clue. The other night I had a mixing bowl full of squishy meat and kidneys. I secretly enjoyed it but would only do it for my cat

 

[mschauer]

 
. One possible issue with my calculation is that there is no skin on the chicken necks I have, but I think the 36% bone estimate is from skin on ones? So the bone % may well be higher in the ones I have. 

Yes, the entry in the chart you linked to in your first post has chicken neck as 36% bone, 39% skin&fat leaving 25% meat. If you are buying skinless necks the bone would be 59% and meat 41%.