Back to square one with integrating old/new cats

[njg55]

I adopted two adult cats (mother and daughter, 5 and 4 years) about 6 weeks ago, adding them to a household with 10 and 11-year-old cats. I kept the new ones in a bedroom with a closed door for two weeks then moved them to a larger room connected to the master bedroom; there are double doors between the two areas. After a week or two, I started letting them explore the entire area, with the bedroom door closed. I also erected a barrier of plastic grating about five feet high that I put between the rooms when I wanted to let the other cats into the bedroom to see the new kids and also use this room as they normally would. One of my cats would come up to the grate, puff her tail, and sometimes meow or growl, but I took it in stride and hoped she'd eventually get used to the new arrivals. The other would look but do nothing, then go away. Then yesterday the more aggressive older cat jumped the barrier! As far as I know, she'd never tried before, and we didn't think she could get over something that high. She went into attack mode, and it took several minutes for my husband and I to separate them. One of the cats had escaped and was hiding in a closet, while the other was cornered under a piece of furniture. Since the barrier is clearly no longer effective and safe, all I can do until we can come up with a new system that allows the cats to see each other but not have physical contact is keep them isolated behind closed doors. I have Feliway dispensers in one of those rooms and in the hallway, and I've ordered some Composure that I hope will help my older cat. The attack made me feel as if no progress has been made with the older cat, although the new girls have been adjusting well. I'm uncertain I'll ever reach a point where I can safely let the all the cats roam the house at the same time, even with supervision, and I'm not sure I want to spend years juggling cats between closed rooms and constantly worrying that I've left a door open or didn't notice that some cat was where I didn't expect it and could attack or be attacked. I'm not giving up yet, but the barrier-jumping incident and cat's aggressiveness, unchanged since day one, has me very disheartened. I'm not at the point of taking them back to the shelter, but I'm not ruling it out. Any advice?

 

[p3 and the king]

Are you letting them interact at all? Or is it all behind barriers?  If you don't let them interact, they'll never get used to one another.  They need to be able to actually meet and lay down the pecking order in the house.  This is all common.  Let them interact, one on one.... So one new one and the calmer one.  And then the other new on and the calmer one and vice versa.  Keep it brief.  Treats help.  You can get down on the floor and hold one while the other circles and gets used to it.  Lots of praise for good interactions (not swatting, hissing or growling- though all are NORMAL and to be expected).  But they have to meet or this never will end.  You need to be calm and just do it.  Don't get upset if it doesn't go the way you want.  Don't "punish" anyone.  Just calmly reseparate and try again later.

 

[abby2932]

I agree with the above poster about letting them meet in pairs instead of all together. So, have one of your resident cats be in the same room with only one of the new cats. And keep doing that until each cat has had some one-on-one time with the cats they don't know. This method will be much less overwhelming for you and all of the cats.

I may word this in a way that could be super confusing so bear with me... Resident Cat #1 may tolerate New Cat #1 but only if Resident Cat #2 and/or New Cat #2 isn't around. Once Resident Cat #1 and New Cat #1 are decently comfortable with each other (after a few days or so of being alone and not fighting), you can try to introduce a third cat to thier meetings. And so on...

When I introduced my girl kitten to my boy adult (5yo) cat, I had them both in the kitchen and fed them dinner on opposite sides of the kitchen. After they ate, I would play with them for about 10-15 minutes separately but in the kitchen together. So I would play with my resident cat first way over here, then I would walk over there to have some playtime with my new kitten. They both watched me go back and forth to have playtime with the other cat. Every day that I did this, I would put their dinner bowls about a foot closer together until they were eating only about 2 feet away from each other. 

My male cat never did want a baby sister and it took him abut 6-8 MONTHS to  not growl at her or swat her on the head if she came too close. That was 4 years ago now and they get along fine. They don't snuggle with or groom each other but I do catch them play fighting and chasing each other around the house. 

 

[crazycatlady007]

Hey there oh dear doesnt sound like it's gone v well. Am afraid u may need to go back to square one or they may never get on. Put the new cats in a separate rm, get a sock on your hand, rub it over one new cat and ano sock for the other new cat. Take these socks straight into the rm with the old cats and let them smell them. Now do the same the other way round. This way both sets of cats get to smell the others scent without the confrontation. Do this for couple of days with fresh scent each time. How do both sets of cats react to the socks? When they seem comfortable, shut the new cats somewhere else then let the old ones in the rm where the new ones were. Let them have a gd smell and get used to it. Then swap New ones back in again on their own.
When u don't seem to get a negative reaction from the old cats, u can progress to meeting face to face. be ready with a couple of saucepans to bang tog if they fight. I would introduce them either at meal times so they associate gd things with each other or get some toys out the old cats love and play with all the cats. The toys should distract them from aggression and again associate fun things with each other. Do it a small amount of time to start with. U might also want to invest in a decent cat tree. I have 4 cats and they love being able to have their own space. Let me know how u get on. Hope that helps

 

[p3 and the king]

Hey there oh dear doesnt sound like it's gone v well. Am afraid u may need to go back to square one or they may never get on. Put the new cats in a separate rm, get a sock on your hand, rub it over one new cat and ano sock for the other new cat. Take these socks straight into the rm with the old cats and let them smell them. Now do the same the other way round. This way both sets of cats get to smell the others scent without the confrontation. Do this for couple of days with fresh scent each time. How do both sets of cats react to the socks? When they seem comfortable, shut the new cats somewhere else then let the old ones in the rm where the new ones were. Let them have a gd smell and get used to it. Then swap New ones back in again on their own.
When u don't seem to get a negative reaction from the old cats, u can progress to meeting face to face. be ready with a couple of saucepans to bang tog if they fight. I would introduce them either at meal times so they associate gd things with each other or get some toys out the old cats love and play with all the cats. The toys should distract them from aggression and again associate fun things with each other. Do it a small amount of time to start with. U might also want to invest in a decent cat tree. I have 4 cats and they love being able to have their own space. Let me know how u get on. Hope that helps

I think you misunderstood... The problem seems to be that she hasn't let them interact at all.  Most of this seems very normal but she keeps putting them behind barriers and too many at once.  So she doesn't need to go back to square one, she needs to progress and let them interact already, otherwise they will never get to know and accept one another.  People get scared and overreact to the hissing, growling, swatting and aggression.  But this is just part of the cats establishing the hierarchy for one thing and it's completely normal.  It doesn't always happen, and it's more common and "severe" with older cats.  But it is normal.  You have to progress and not be so stressed at it yourself.  Cats are like furry little mirrors and will reflect her stress back at her.  So, if she's stressed, they will be more stressed, too.  Calm down and take it to the next step is my suggestion.  Otherwise, you're just making it much harder and bigger a process.

 

[njg55]

That seems like it would be a good idea. Among the two new cats, one is less shy and would be the better choice for an interaction. Among the "old cats," the one that hasn't been making a big fuss would be the choice to go first. I'll work on a meeting, although preferably when I have another family member around to help!

 

[crazycatlady007]

I think you misunderstood... The problem seems to be that she hasn't let them interact at all.  Most of this seems very normal but she keeps putting them behind barriers and too many at once.  So she doesn't need to go back to square one, she needs to progress and let them interact already, otherwise they will never get to know and accept one another.  People get scared and overreact to the hissing, growling, swatting and aggression.  But this is just part of the cats establishing the hierarchy for one thing and it's completely normal.  It doesn't always happen, and it's more common and "severe" with older cats.  But it is normal.  You have to progress and not be so stressed at it yourself.  Cats are like furry little mirrors and will reflect her stress back at her.  So, if she's stressed, they will be more stressed, too.  Calm down and take it to the next step is my suggestion.  Otherwise, you're just making it much harder and bigger a process.
 

Sorry am sure u r right. Got bit carried away with my advice. Am sure your suggestions will help. Thanks for the advice won't dive in with a reply next time

 

[wpleary]

"People get scared and overreact to the hissing, growling, swatting and aggression.  But this is just part of the cats establishing the hierarchy for one thing and it's completely normal."

How can someone tell what is normal aggression that is OK related to status/hierarchy, and what is too much? I wish there were some YouTube videos about this kind of interaction so I could see what experienced cat people thought was normal and tolerable interaction of this sort. All of the videos I see about 'play fighting' that is much lower key than what I am personally seeing with our new cats. But the wrestling, biting, and scratching I'm seeing (without too much vocalization) is definitely not a full-on cat-fight either. Is this aggression related to hierarchy supposed to occur during play, or is it completely unrelated? In our cats I observe that the aggression seems to heat up sometimes after very rough play, and other times when one cat just instigates some interaction and the other doesn't seem welcome to it.

I also read conflicting advice from the experts on hierarchy. Some seem to indicate there is a hierarchy and others say there really isn't. Any advice on good threads or videos on what level of aggression and how to tell the signs of what is too much with new cats getting to know each other (esp. if one is young...7-9 months...) would be very helpful.

 

[p3 and the king]

 
"People get scared and overreact to the hissing, growling, swatting and aggression.  But this is just part of the cats establishing the hierarchy for one thing and it's completely normal."

How can someone tell what is normal aggression that is OK related to status/hierarchy, and what is too much? I wish there were some YouTube videos about this kind of interaction so I could see what experienced cat people thought was normal and tolerable interaction of this sort. All of the videos I see about 'play fighting' that is much lower key than what I am personally seeing with our new cats. But the wrestling, biting, and scratching I'm seeing (without too much vocalization) is definitely not a full-on cat-fight either. Is this aggression related to hierarchy supposed to occur during play, or is it completely unrelated? In our cats I observe that the aggression seems to heat up sometimes after very rough play, and other times when one cat just instigates some interaction and the other doesn't seem welcome to it.

I also read conflicting advice from the experts on hierarchy. Some seem to indicate there is a hierarchy and others say there really isn't. Any advice on good threads or videos on what level of aggression and how to tell the signs of what is too much with new cats getting to know each other (esp. if one is young...7-9 months...) would be very helpful.

Each cat and each situation is different.  It is generally thought that the younger they are, the more accepting.  However, this isn't always true.  Proper introductions have to be made and you have to take it slow and SOME growling, hissing, swatting, and even jumping on the back is to be expected.  It doesn't happen with every cat and every situation, but it is to be expected to some degree. 

It's always good before you get another cat to access your current  cats personality and get them a "friend" that has an equal energy or close to it.  And to try to get around equal age or for an older kitty and least a kitten that is older and more laid back. 

For your situation wpleary, I would say the kitten is just too young at this point to defend himself.  So you will have to do brief interactions for a awhile, probably a month, until he's bigger and more able to defend himself.  This is why a lot a breeders wait until they are 12 weeks.  Your older kitty is like a bully big brother.  I don't think he means to hurt the little one but the little one really is too young to be left alone or to defend himself against the older kitten.  That is why you're having trouble for the most part.  It's really not about aggression or hierarchy, it's more the fact that the little one is too little and young to defend himself at this point and yours is more a waiting game. *I am sorry, wrong situation... You are the one with the very unsure and stressed kitty.  I don't think you're going about it the wrong way.  If you really are concerned, ask your vet to consult with a  behavior specialist now.  But they will need to see video of the situation to help you.  As I said, vets are not behavior specialist.  So just having your vet give him some meds probably isn't going to do much good.  It takes time for it to go through their system and there are the adjustments.  There is no instant fix here.  I am sorry.  I wish I had better news.  But if you don't feel we can help you, you need to consult a behavior expert on this matter.  In person.  In real life.  Because as I said, each situation is different.

The poster on this one is more about too much all at once and her stress at the whole situation and not letting them interact.  To a degree, yes some aggression is normal and expected.  Just calmly separate again and try again later.  They have to actually meet and interact in order to complete this process.

 

[wpleary]

Thanks P3. Unfortunately we made the mistake of getting two cats at once, so I do not know their behavior, especially that of the older one, without another cat in the picture at all. I have no worries about the 7 month old. He is generally always happy, and has never shown any stress. I was afraid that Remy, the older one, who is also about 3 pounds heavier, could do some serious damage. 10 pounds vs 7. However, I am shocked at how resilient the little guy is. Two nights ago they were both up in the 72-inch cat tree. Jackson (7 month) year old, didn't like getting licked by Remy and put a paw up in his face. Remy sort of pushed him back, not hard. But Jackson was not completely awake and fell off of his perch, pretty hard, on the floor....not on his feet. He literally stretched...yawned...and then got up and ate some food. 

We will take it slower as of this point. 

 

[njg55]

Follow-up: I followed the advice from several others on the forum and let one of my older cats meet the new girls. He hadn't been aggressive when observing them through a grate/barrier, so I thought he would behave fairly well. I let him into the bedroom/bonus room area where the new girls stay, and the first time he didn't get any closer than about 15 feet, just sitting and staring at them, while they stared at him. One of them moved cautiously toward him after a while, maybe out of curiosity, but stopped. They probably would have continued this way indefinitely, but I had things to do and ushered the visitor out. I let him in again several hours later, and this time he started out farther into the room than before. One of the new cats was on the other side of the room and after a few minutes began to tiptoe across to where I was sitting on the couch, keeping an eye on the visitor. She jumped up beside me, very routine behavior, while the resident cat came closer and watched. The other new cat remained partially hidden on a desk chair. I was very relieved to see that the resident cat wasn't aggressive and that the two new ones weren't afraid of him, just, understandably, a bit nervous or cautious.

As for the other older cat, the one who has been very aggressive to the point of jumping over a 5-foot barrier to attack, I'll wait a while before trying a face to face meeting. Given her track record, just how should I do that? Maybe she'll settle down with more time, but if I let her get anywhere near the new girls now, the fur would fly. I'm not sure anyone could successfully hold her to prevent this, without wearing a suit of armor. Putting her in a crate would keep everyone safe, but that's obviously a very negative experience for a cat. I do want these meetings to take place but can't figure out how to manage it. Right now we don't have a see-through barrier through which they could meet, since the older cat has shown us that she's an Olympic high jumper. We're thinking of other options but may not have anything in place for quite a while. I just started giving the older cat a Composure treat once a day. If they're effective at all, they probably aren't yet.  

 

[abby2932]

Oh yay! That's good to hear that one of your resident cats is visiting with the new girls and the experience was not negative. I would keep doing that every day (maybe even a few times a day) so they have more face to face time and get more acquainted with each other. 

As for the older, more aggressive kitty, the one thing that I would reiterate is to have only one new cat in the room with him at a time. This way, he may not feel the need to be so defensive and aggressive as if he's being ganged up on. If I was in a room with 2 people that I hate who are friends with each other, I would definitely be more hostile and less comfortable than if I was only with one of them at a time.

After a while, one they can all be on the same room without a fight breaking loose, your more aggressive cat will see that the other resident cat is being more accepting of the new cats and he may tone his attitude down a bit. 

This will take a while, no need to rush things. Just be patient and continue with the supervised visiting. That's what I would do! =)

 

[njg55]

My older, resident female is the problem. After a couple of days of periodic face to face meetings, the older male and the new girls are OK, still watchful and wary, but no adverse reaction except an occasional brief growl from one or the other. I think he'll be fine with them eventually, maybe not friendly, but not a threat. The older female has twice attacked, and I'm not talking about hissing, growling, or a swat. I mean full-on cat fight. The new cat whom she cornered the other day has visible scratches. The older female arrived in the house as a "third" cat 9 years ago and generally got along OK with the two neutered males who were about a year old at the time; they weren't overly affectionate but tolerated each other reasonably well. I never worried about leaving them alone, although Princess did have one incident years ago of redirected aggression after seeing a stray through the window. Since she couldn't get to the intruder, she began attacking the other guys. That situation was resolved by about a month of separation and gradual reintroduction. I've seen a little of that resurface with the arrival of the two new ones (the death of one of my males, a very sweet, gentle boy, a few months ago is what triggered the adoption of the two new cats). If both Princess and Cinnamon were looking at the new cats through the plastic grate (which we had to take down when Princess jumped over a few days ago), she would sometimes vent her anger at him, some mild to moderate hissing or snarling, but no actual fighting. How in the world will I integrate her? If she's teed off with a cat she's lived with for 9 years, she's clearly not ready to play nice with new arrivals. She absolutely cannot get anywhere near them right now or there would be violence. I hope to erect a new see-through screen that covers the whole door so that the cats can once again see and smell each other. I can't let the new girls roam the house, which I want to do to let them explore territory beyond their safe rooms, unless Princess is shut away. I realize that she needs more time to adjust, but I know that they will have to be face to face before long to make any progress. Is there anything I can do to help? She's begun getting Composure treats, and I have a couple of Feliway dispensers. I periodically switch some blankets from the safe room to a room where Princess often sleeps, and I let her and the other cat into the bedroom, which is typically closed to them part of the day, when the new ones are shut into the adjacent bonus room. They are still picking up each others' scents even if Princess can't see them any more.

 

[njg55]

Update on the integration of the two new girls. It's been two months since I brought in a mother-daughter pair (5 and 4 years) to a household with 10- and 11-year old cats. I still have to keep them separate, although there has been some progress. I try to let the older neutered male in the same room as the new girls every couple of days for a supervised visit (I know I should do it more often). They're a bit tense, but I think the anxiety on both sides is lessening. I'll keep doing what I'm doing and will try to increase the frequency of visits. The older female has always been the problem child. She jumped a 5-foot grate between two rooms a few weeks ago and attacked, so for a while we either kept the doors between these two connected rooms closed so that the resident cats could still access the master bedroom/bath, or opened the doors to give the new kids access to both rooms but kept the bedroom door closed and the resident cats out. We put the grates back up recently in a reconfigured pattern and also put a screen in the gap between the top of the grates and the door frame. It wouldn't be much of a physical barrier, but we hope it LOOKS like it is. So now the cats can look at each other more or less safely without close supervision; I"m not sure, though, that I would leave the house while this arrangement is in effect. My level of trust in the security of the barrier is not that high.

When Princess is outside the barrier watching the new girls, she usually fluffs up and swishes her tail and growls but after a while gets tired and goes off to take a catnap. I want to start visits between her and the new cats, but her degree of aggression makes me very nervous. This morning I had the grate up and knew she was watching them while I was in another part of the house. I suddenly heard loud yowling and hissing and was sure she had managed to get in with the other cats again. When I reached the room, though, the barrier was intact, but Princess was exceptionally agitated. I don't know why, but my two guesses are that one of the cats on the other side moved from a hiding place behind a chair across her line of sight, or else the other resident cat had wandered by. Princess sometimes turns her aggression on him because she can't get at the newcomers. She doesn't usually get so bent out of shape, though. I'm not sure she's calmed down at all these last two months despite seeing and smelling the new girls, Feliway dispensers, and Composure tablets. My biggest question is how to move forward with closer interaction. I don't dare just open the door and let her in, because I think there's a 100% chance she would immediately start a fight. Someone could try to hold her (wearing gloves and heavy clothes would be a good idea!), but I think it would be a challenge to keep a grip on her when she's so upset. I could put her in a carrier and leave it in the room with the others and do this as often as I could snare her, or I could try a harness. The last two would be safe, at least, but seem like they would make a very negative impression when the whole idea is to make meetings between them a positive experience. However, the only time I could bring Princess in with the others without resorting to the crate or harness is when other family members are here to help. I work at home and am around all the time, but except for weekends and evenings I'm here alone; even when my husband and/or son are here, they wouldn't always have time to help with cat integration. Any ideas on what route to go? I know this will take time, lots of time. I don't want to rush things, but I know I need to keep gradually moving forward and would appreciate any thoughts on how to proceed.

 

[crazycatlady007]

Hey there gd to hear your update and sounds as if ur making gradual progress. These things take time. Have u tried feeding the cats on either side of the grate where they can see each other without being able to get to each other and moving the bowls nearer and nearer. Thus they would associate gd things with any meetings? Also before any meetings try and wear the aggressive one out with some playtime so she won't have huge amounts of energy to fight? Cat carrier might make her feel trapped as would holding her by force. Make sure there are always escape routes for the cats as fights often happen when a cat is backed into a corner and feels they have no other option but to fight. Gd luck and keep us posted x

 

[njg55]

It's almost three months now since I brought the two new cats into the household with the older two, and I wish I could report more progress. The older female is still in a huff; we have supposedly temporary plastic grating across a set of double doors between two adjoining rooms, and Princess still tries to get in and often growls, yowls, and hisses quite aggressively. She has a history (mentioned in my earlier posts) of attacking one of the new girls during a few early accidental meetings, and I don't trust her with them yet. I have begun putting her in a cat carrier and bringing it into the room with the other cats (they have access to both rooms most of the day, when I open the barrier and shut the door to the bedroom). I try to put the carrier about 4 to 6 feet away from one or both cats, depending on who is where, so that they can get a good look at each other. Princess' reaction is sometimes mild growling/hissing, sometimes quiet, sometimes quite heated up. She seems to get more agitated if one of the other cats moves; usually they're too scared of her to budge! I put cat treats in the carrier with her to try to make it a more positive experience; she actually went into the carrier voluntarily the other day. I really can't think of anything else to do for now. As I said, I don't dare turn her loose. Aggression is not surprising, but the extent of her anger after three months suggests to me she's not ready for uncontrolled access.

Right now my husband and I are looking for a more secure screen/gate system. The plastic grating is rather flimsy, and we have to use two sheets to span the doors and two stacked on top of each other; there is a gap of several inches between the edge of the top grate and the door frame. It's not big enough for a cat to get through, but a determined cat could push it aside; it's clamped to the door frame on the other side but would flex. Our troublemaker hasn't tried it yet, but I wouldn't put it past her the way she sits by the doors and eyes the set-up. There's also a gap of a foot or more at the top. We've put up a piece of screen, but it's strictly a visual or psychological deterrent. She once jumped over the grate before we had the screen up, a distance of maybe five feet, so I know that she's capable of. I want to install sturdy screen doors or something more secure. It would help my peace of mind a lot. I usually open the barrier during the day and close it at night, and I often lie awake worrying about what Princess will do. Typically she comes in the room as soon as I've resecured the barrier, puts her paws against it, and tries to get through repeatedly. I don't like to respond too negatively and chase her out of the room because the whole point is for everyone to see and get used to each other. Generally I raise my voice somewhat or move over next to her to discourage a jump or strong push but try not to overreact. I'm still a nervous wreck!