baby kitten experiment

[jcribbs]

I fed my babies their first raw meal today.  Fish.....  I put down two bowls -- their kibble in one bowl and cubed up salmon in another.  The salmon is gone and the kibble is sitting there.....  So that went well.

I had wanted to try them on raw so I bought some Wild Kitty (6 lbs size) and they hated it.  In fact, my dogs like it but none of my cats will eat it.  I will never buy that again.  I have 25 little bags of it in my freezer that I will give to my dogs as snacks now.  The kittens are close to 3 months old or so.

I have decided to make my own.  I have done that before and used a great recipe that they loved.  At that time I added bone meal to it and chucked the meat and the majority ate it like champs.

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I have questions.  I feed 20 cats a high end food variety and per month, I end up spending approx 150-200 or so on food.  How expensive would raw be comparatively speaking, cost wise.

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One thing I am confused about is two fold.  I have this great recipe that I used before.  http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html  The most expensive thing about it is the addins, which wasn't too awfully bad.  I used the second recipe but also added organs and fish oil and cranberries and chunked the meat into bit size.  They loved this food.

I have read on other sites is if you use whole animals, you don't need to add anything.

I do want to give them variety.  I can catch fresh  minnows in our creek in the spring.  Seasonal catches, if you know what I mean for one variety.  We have thousands of them.  We also have  butcher house about 20 miles for me that might sell meat to individuals and I know they can grind bones.  

Just want a few comments on variety given and food vs chunked or ground and whole vs additives or meat with bones given to chew just as ribs or chicken breasts....

I see myself going through a transition period with food and I'm not sure where it is going to take me.

 

[ldg]

Well, I guess my first question is... the cats you're feeding, are they inside, outside, enclosed, or free-roaming? The canned you feed them - is it supplementing what they hunt?

As to whole prey... it really depends. Whole large animals are fed ground, so you typically have to account for loss of nutrients from oxidation with supplements.

But if your question about about whole prey is re: things like mice, baby chicks, that kind of thing, then no, you don't need supplements.

If you're proposing a type of frankenprey, whether to supplement or not is really up to you and your comfort level. I feed frankenprey, but use some supplements - only because my understanding/belief is that the nutrient profile of chickens and cows is not that of mice and other small rodents. I also provide eggshell powder or freeze dried bone (I alternate because it's too expensive for me to use freeze dried bone exclusively) as a source of calcium rather than feeding bones. But many feeding frankenprey (whole prey model raw) don't provide any supplements. If you want to go this route, basically you provide 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ. It's best to have 3-5 protein sources in rotation - and with this diet it is a good idea to supplement an omega 3, and most feeding frankenprey do this with a weekly treat of sardines. Fish can be a good way to do that. But fish is best used sparingly, not as a main meal too often. There's an enzyme in raw fish that can cause a thiamine (B1) deficiency. http://www.cat-world.com.au/thiamine-deficiency-in-cats

The link isn't working for me, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting as re: the recipe.

One minor point - not sure about the addition of cranberries. Meat contains quite a bit of methionine, which is naturally acidifying, and maintains a proper urine pH.

But for cost.... I feed 8 cats raw. Mine are older, not very active, and as I don't feed bone, they eat less than those that feed bone. Mine eat about 2 pounds of food a day. Without supplements, it costs me approximately $50 per week. With 20 cats, if they depend completely on you for their nutrition, and they need 6 ounces a day each, that's... 7.5 pounds of food a day, 225 pounds a month. So the cost to feed them raw, if you use no supplements, and spend $2.00 per pound on meat and organs (which may well be more than you need to spend), it will cost $450 a month. They may not need that much food, it might not cost that much per pound.... the guideline for how much a cat needs to eat in raw food is between 2% - 4% of their bodyweight. Mine all eat around 2% daily.

You'd need the freezer space... for ground, you'd need to add the cost of some supplements.

Don't know if I addressed any of your questions, but hope this helps.

 

[jcribbs]

Laurie, as always, you have answered all my questions.  I have a lot to think about.

As far as which cats, all of them.  In/out for the majority.  I only have two that stay consistently in the house.  Like tonight, all my outside cats are inside because it's in the 20's.  They're all laying in front of the fireplace snoozing. 

I already have most of the supplements needed for a mix because I already had it due to previous raw attempts.  I am looking into some type of bulk buying.  As far as freezer space, I plan on buying a little freezer devoted just to them and their needs. 

It is also possibly I can get chicken really cheap.  We have a tyson's plant a few miles away and sometimes they make deals on raw hens.  I was also looking into rabbit.

Not all of mine like raw.  All the ferals do.  Star hates any type of canned food, sardines or tuna or special treats, but she'll go after a chicken cubed up with no hesitation.  She would love to eat raw every meal.  And she kills her own rabbits.  I can only feed her kibble or raw.   And that's her choice.  I guess her philosophy is why should she cat canned when she can go snag her own food???  you know??  but some hate the raw and absolutely will not touch it.  But I'll say 75 percent love it.

So I'm not sure if I'm going to do 100 percent raw or just 5-6  meals a week for all for added and the best nutrition and that way the ones who don't like raw can continue their taste of the wild and the other have an added nutritional meal in their mix.  Thank you for the response.  I'm going to do little more reading on the subj and see what I come up with.   

And this is the recipe I use.....  but I add fish oil and cranberries to it.  I used it because I don't have a grinder that grinds bones.

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this is the recipe.  Most of mine loved it.  I did not grind all the meat.  Only the organs and a small bit of the chicken/turkey.  The rest of it I cubed up.  I also added extra vitamins.   Plus I used the vitamins AND the organs.  I used both to make sure they got exactly what they need or more.  And I did not add salt.

1400 grams [3 lbs] raw muscle meat  (i.e., chicken thighs and drumsticks meat. leaving about half the skin)

400 grams [14 oz] raw heart (if no heart is available, substitute with 4000 mg Taurine)

200 grams [7 oz] raw liver (if you can't find appropriate liver, you can substitute 40,000 IU of Vitamin A and 1600 IU of Vitamin D--but try to use real liver instead of substitutes)

NOTE: If you cannot find the heart or liver and decide to substitute with the Taurine/Vitamin A and D, then remember to REPLACE the missing amount of organ meat with the equivalent amount of muscle meat. In other words, if you cannot find heart, you add another 400 grams of the meat. If you can't find the liver, add another 200 grams of meat/bone.

16 oz [2 cups] water

4 tablespoons bonemeal (the kind intended for human consumption--not the type used for gardening)

2 tablespoons unflavored gelatin

4 raw egg yolks (use eggs from free-range, antibiotic-free chickens if you can)***

4 capsules raw glandular supplement, such as, for example, multigland supplement by Immoplex

4000 mg salmon oil (see note at bottom of recipe*)

800 IU Vitamin E  ("dry E" works well)

200 mg Vitamin B-50 complex  (i.e., four capsules of B-50)

1.5 tsp. Lite salt (with iodine)

(optional: 4 tsp. psyllium husk powder (8 tsp. if using whole psyllium husks; see note at bottom of recipe**)

NOTE: If you will not be using the food immediately and freezing for more than a week or two, toss in 4000 mg of additional Taurine to make up for what may get lost during storage. It is also not a bad idea to sprinkle extra Taurine from a capsule on the food as you're serving it two or three times a week, just to be certain your cat is getting plenty of this critical amino acid.

1. Remove about half of the skin from the muscle meat. Chunk up (i.e., cut) much of the muscle meat (minus most of the skin if using chicken or turkey, but leave skin on if using rabbit) into bite-sized (nickel-sized, approximately) pieces. Save the chunked meat for later - do not grind it.

2. Grind the raw liver, remaining meat and the raw heart. Once ground, stir this mixture well and return to refrigerator. Once ground, stir this mixture very well and refrigerate.

3. Fill a bowl with 2 cups of water and whisk everything (non-meat) except the psyllium and gelatin. If you had to replace liver with Vitamin A and D or heart with Taurine, add those substitutes now. Add psyllium (if you're using that) and gelatin at the end and stir well. (If you add the psyllium and gelatin too soon it clumps up.) Finally, put the three mixtures together -the "supplement slurry" that you have just mixed, the ground-up meat, and the chunks of meat you cut by hand. Portion into containers and freeze.

Don't overfill the containers. Thaw only what you can use within 48 hours. Warm the food in a plastic bag under hot water to take off the chill, and serve.

*Every two or three days, I suggest sprinkling a few drops of fresh salmon oil from a newly-opened capsule on to the cats' food. The Essential Fatty Acids in salmon oil are extremely fragile, and since we don't know exactly how much gets lost during freezing, I think it's wise to use a bit of fresh salmon oil directly on the food a few times a week. Most cats love the flavor.

**Not all cats require additional fiber (psyllium) in their diet. If your cat has been eating low-quality commercial food for several years, especially dry food, she may have lost bowel elasticity and may benefit from the extra fiber. As a general rule, I recommend using psyllium when an adult cat first gets raw food. I rarely add much psyllium to my adult cats' diet. Bear in mind that some cats seem to get constipated without additional fiber, whereas other cats seem to get constipated if they get too much fiber. Each cat is unique, and you'll have to judge what works best for your cat.

***If you don't want to waste the egg whites and don't feel like making an angel food cake, poach them, grind them, and throw them in with the food.  A nice phosphorus-free source of protein.

 

[Willowy]

I also added extra vitamins. Plus I used the vitamins AND the organs. I used both to make sure they got exactly what they need or more.

Be careful with that. When it comes to vitamins, more isn't necessarily better. Some can be overdosed rather easily, and an overdose is as bad as a deficiency. When you're following a recipe or label instructions it's usually best to stick to it pretty closely .

 

[whollycat]

Be careful with that. When it comes to vitamins, more isn't necessarily better. Some can be overdosed rather easily, and an overdose is as bad as a deficiency. When you're following a recipe or label instructions it's usually best to stick to it pretty closely

.

Especially if you're adding liver AND vitamins A and D (and E), as these are fat soluble vitamins and stored in the body. Egg yolks also contain A and D and E. The water soluble vitamins, like vitamin B-Complex, excess will be excreted so that is not a concern. The amino sulfonic acid, taurine, I always add even when I have hearts because you can't over dose this vitally important supplement for kitties. Vitamin E you have a little more leeway with than other fat soluble vitamins because it acts as a natural preservative and helps keep fats (including fish oils) from becoming rancid that are in a ground raw diet.

 

[jcribbs]

ok miss willow.......... I will
 

 

[jcribbs]

Baby kittens have started eating the raw food that I made.  What I do is put it down first before the kibble and mama and the kittens eat it.  Then I put the kibble for them to munch during the day while I am gone...  I am so glad because that is who I intended it for.  They needed an extra boost!
 

 

[ldg]

:bigthumb: Sounds like all is going well!

 

[whollycat]

Baby kittens have started eating the raw food that I made.  What I do is put it down first before the kibble and mama and the kittens eat it.  Then I put the kibble for them to munch during the day while I am gone...  I am so glad because that is who I intended it for.  They needed an extra boost!
 

Not to be a naysayer here, but because raw and kibble have pretty different transit/digestion times, I would not feed both. You may be setting them up for problems down the road. Not to mention the digestibility and bioavailability of the foods (raw being the best of the two food choices). Can others weigh in please?