At wit's end

[mservant]

Any idea when you are likely to get the results from the other vet?  It sounds like you could do with chatting with the new vet soon, even if it's only a phone call to talk through what the records say and what has been happening since your last vet appointment: see what they suggest?

Do you know where you are moving to?  If you do, is it somewhere you could give the cats their own seperate space to start with to get used to everything and check they settle down OK given recent issues?

Moves are always stressful, never mind all the stuff with Sassy and Striker.  

 

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
I'm not saying a younger vet is a sure solution, but I've found that recent vet-school graduates AND experienced vets who are diligent about continuing education tend to have a very good grasp of the latest treatments. One recent grad told me that her vet program used only Marquis to treat coccidia, while almost every older vet I talked to, even a couple who worked with rescues, hadn't even heard of it.

Panacur treats giardia but not coccidia. Only Albon or Marquis will treat coccidia. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on z/d and dry food in general for IBD. A foster of mine with severe IBD was successfully weaned off of prednisone entirely and we've been able to manage her condition entirely via feeding z/d, both dry and canned. The rescue I volunteer at has also used z/d (primarily dry) with great success with an IBD cat. That's not to say that another hypoallergenic food like Royal Canin's line wouldn't also have worked, but my foster preferred the z/d over the RC.

As far as food choices go, I've found Dr. Lisa Pierson's analysis and recommendations sound, as have several vets I work with: http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf. 

I'm aware that amitriptyline is an anti-anxiety med, but when looking into it for my cat who had his own pee issues, I found little research proving its efficacy in treating inappropriate urination issues compared with Prozac. I've had several vets describe Prozac to me as the first and usually most effective drug they try for pee problems, with Clomicalm as the backup.

Yes, very familiar with Dr. Pierson`s site. She`s probably one of the first vets to publicly subscribe to the belief through her website, that dry food is not appropriate for cats. The link to the PDF that you posted is a great resource but you`ll notice only contains nutritional information on wet food.

Like humans, its entirely possible to survive on a species inappropriate food for quite sometime. For humans this is in the form of too much fat, carbohydrates and empty calories, for cats this is dry food with too many carbohydrates in the form of grains and veggies and not enough animal protein. Somewhere along the line and as they become older, the constant diet of dry food will catch up with them and the trouble begins in the form of issues with the bladder, IBD, allergies.

I have heard that Prozac is widely used to treat anxiety issues, issues arising from redirected aggression in cats, not so much elimination issues. One of its side effects however is constipation of which some cats that are on it, are struggling with. I think when it comes to choosing an appropriate medication, considerations have to be made as to how a cat will tolerate a particular medication with the least amount of side effects, while doing the job it was meant to do.

 

[therese]

Billchamp, I so feel your pain  with your cats......I am the person who suggested the Cat Specialist.....I neglected to mention that some vets who are BOTH dog and cat doctors are listed on that database....but I would strongly suggest you get a pure CAT SPECIALIST that does nothing else.

I sure hope you do this, I can't tell you what a difference it made for me, dealing with a pee cat and an IBD cat  ( two different cats) and the wild goose chase I went on, much like yours, going from one general vet to another.   

Getting a cat vet is not a magic bullet but I feel if you  take this one last step and do the specialist, it could make the whole difference here.  You are obviously an excellent, very detailed historian so it won't take you long to tell the doc what is going on.....I typed out a whole list of bullet points, outlining the oddessey I went on with both my cats.  We STILL had to do some trial and error, but between this vet, who has had 20 years of JUST cats and me, we figured things out.   I think I mentioned that I swear by this guy to the point where I drive an hour each way to see him.  ( he is in south Florida btw)  

I had redecorated my office in the house, ( stress and smells of new furniture, workmen, the works)  introduced a new cat, and in addition, my cat had bad anal glands that were completely not being dealt with by our regular vet, all of which caused her to pee around.   the rest of my 'stories " are in my other posts.  

Please keep us posted.  My heart goes out to you because you sound so much like me, with all this.  

 

[billchamb]

 
Any idea when you are likely to get the results from the other vet?  It sounds like you could do with chatting with the new vet soon, even if it's only a phone call to talk through what the records say and what has been happening since your last vet appointment: see what they suggest?

Do you know where you are moving to?  If you do, is it somewhere you could give the cats their own seperate space to start with to get used to everything and check they settle down OK given recent issues?

Moves are always stressful, never mind all the stuff with Sassy and Striker.  

 

Moving approx 6 hrs away, near Indianapolis, IN.  We are trying to move to a new, one-level house.  It has the potential for litter boxes in 2 different rooms (one a secondary bathroom/laundry, the other a bedroom/office).

I will get her records from vet #1 as early as possible tomorrow.

Last dose of Panacur just went down, and she is into an every-other-day dose of Pred for the next 8 days.  Amytrip and Pro-Viable still going.

 

[cat nap]

would i be able to ask you the dimensions of the litter boxes?....because i read somewhere that a lady used those underbed storage boxes which are 3 feet long x 20 inch wide x 6 inch high for her geriatric cats so they would have more space and easier step-in. she also put down 6mm plastic sheeting which she bought at Home Depot ....which is usually sold as vapour barriers at $26 per roll...along with puppy pads. however i don't know how she gets her cats to walk on this... unless there is indoor/outdoor carpeting on it. my cats will not walk over weird stuff.

i do hope your new vet can zero in on the cat's health issues and offer supportive treatment. also maybe as Therese mentioned...a cat specialist may offer more detailed medical treatment if they can give you some kind of diagnosis.

 

[therese]

Cat Nap, I saw somewhere else on this board, that people also go to Home Depot ( or you could  probably order them on line )  they have something called CONCRETE MIXING PANS  and they are 25" X 35"  X 7.5 " high.  They are hard plastic, quite large, and many people, according to the comments under the item on the Home Depot website, they use them as kitty litter boxes.  They are large, and only about $12 each.  

Its funny because some of the concrete masons were  complaining that they were too flimsy to hold pounds of  concrete and then there were ALLLL these cat lovers praising the item for use as a litter box!  LOL !  

 

 

[cat nap]

@therese...this is good to know.....you should start a new thread on "things that are unrelated to cats but useful in their care".... i would but i'm a newbie and don't know how yet....plus i am shy....lol :shysmile:

 

[therese]

  Great idea, but I have only been here about five days !  I think I am one post into 'kitten' !  I will wait a little longer and maybe will attempt it !  

 

[mycatwasthebest]

I don't think you and your wife are giving sassy enough credit. You say this will be your third move in 6 years (u guys are almost as bad as I am!)

u are packing up your household and moving things around and I'm sure this cat knows u are leaving, and now u are talking about leaving HER. I would humbly suggest u not discuss this situation in front of your cat, treat the situation as if she were a child u did not discuss things in front of. Try to avoid packing in front of her, or piling boxes places she used to go (closets, corners, etc.) Make sure she always has access to familiar toys, blankies whatever. pay attention to her the way u used to before this moving thing came up. try and play with her.  none of this can hurt

 

[cat nap]

What! Who is leaving who??. i thought billchamb was asking for input for his elderly cat who has problems remembering to use the litterbox, or is attracted to the concrete smells and urinates there, or is afraid, or has painful urination problems....i may have missed the post where he said he is thinking of leaving her...but why would you go through all that treatment to help an elderly cat and then leave it behind....it would be like getting rid of our elders just because they have to use diapers.
on a side note i do think your advice @mycatwasthebest is very good ....because cats definetly are sensitive to their surroundings...mine always explore when i move furniture around....kind of like a nod of approval....or not

 

[cat stress15]

I read in your first post that you said blood work revealed "a perfectly healthy feline" but I have had too many instances where, for whatever reason, a test result was skimmed over when it should have been a red flag for the vet. In my experiences when a cat is suffering from kidney disease, bladder infection, or urinary tract infection they intentional urinate outside the box blatantly in front of you or in a place where you will notice.

Did you get a copy of all of Sassy's blood work to look it over yourself? I see a lot of replies about it being a behavioral issue but the blood test results I think are worth a second look.

 

[billchamb]

Vet #1showed me the result print out and took time to explain them to me.

The results included colored bar graph markers indicating the ranges for each result with a "flag" located on the range where Sassy's result was.

Based on those ranges and Sassy's results, her initial bloodwork panel was all within acceptable ranges, nothing too high, too low or even on the borderline for suspicious.

Vet #1 had also done a full body xray which he showed me, taking time to identify organs, etc. and explain what sort of abnormalities might be observed, but were not present in Sassy.

Vet #2 did not rerun tests, but based on his hands-on exam and my anecdotal results from vet #1, he agreed it seemed more behavioral than medical.

 

[billchamb]

24 hours since the last urine on the open floor, and approx. 8 hours since I cleaned the boxes and went to bed -

Sassy used the open-air tub twice to urinate/mark, but had diarrhea on the open floor (consistency of thick soup).

My guess is this is fairly recent (at least the diarrhea) because it was still so wet and runny (apologies if that grosses anyone out, but I'm the one cleaning it).

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Vet #1showed me the result print out and took time to explain them to me.

The results included colored bar graph markers indicating the ranges for each result with a "flag" located on the range where Sassy's result was.

Based on those ranges and Sassy's results, her initial bloodwork panel was all within acceptable ranges, nothing too high, too low or even on the borderline for suspicious.

Vet #1 had also done a full body xray which he showed me, taking time to identify organs, etc. and explain what sort of abnormalities might be observed, but were not present in Sassy.

Vet #2 did not rerun tests, but based on his hands-on exam and my anecdotal results from vet #1, he agreed it seemed more behavioral than medical.

If I recall correctly, the diarrhea started following the vet visit where Sassy received a shot of medication? Depending on when you started to prepare for your move in the way of packing, removing items from rooms, etc., between the subsequent vet visits and the move preparations, this could be what is causing Sassy to feel fearful and it turn continue producing diarrhea. Especially if she has seen the same sort of activity on two other occasions when you have moved.

I recall a situation with a young woman and her husband, and the long-standing problem they had with their male cat with his inappropriate peeing on their furniture. He also displayed an aggressive tendency at times in lashing out and biting. The peeing got so bad that this woman felt her only recourse was to plaster her furniture with plastic sheets and place litter boxes ON the furniture. An extreme solution, but it seemed to work for her. Definitely not something that I would recommend. Anyway, the whole point in mentioning this, is that in all likelihood, the peeing was due to the many times this couple moved homes. As the result of the constant stress, the cat most likely also had an underlying bladder issue as well. The husband had the type of job that required a move every 3-4 years or so. I think the last time I heard, the couple were in house #6. Peeing is a typical response to stress, but diarrhea can also be a result.

Being a cat from a shelter, you may not have learned much about Sassy's history, if she was surrendered or abandoned or as the result of a litter of kittens. The early history can play an important role in the type of personality a cat will develop and how they deal with certain situations. What is most important for a cat is routine. They don't like change as a rule. Some cats seem to have no problem with it however. Something else to consider is that while Striker may be dealing with things okay, he may feel some stress from the goings on, which may be manifesting in becoming more territorial with the litter boxes! You may want to get started on introducing a third litter box and try and devise a way so that only Sassy has access to it.

How is Striker doing on the new food? Is his elimination still okay, or has there been a change?

I am inclined to share your wife's opinion that a cat being on a lot of medications can take a toll. With some medications, diarrhea and constipation can be side effects. My approach is to try and use holistic and practical solutions before having to resort to medications, which can change a cat's disposition and sometimes cause other problems, but sometimes medications are the only solution.

I think the move to the Blue Buffalo was a good one. While it may not cure the diarrhea, at least with the Blue Buffalo they are getting more meat protein content.

Glad to hear that Sassy seems to be peeing more regularly in the litter box, and it is only with the diarrhea that she goes outside, but not always. This is some improvement.

I know the impending move is weighing heavily on your mind, but you still have a month where this situation can be turned around. Try and stay positive and when you can, take some time to engage Sassy in play and cuddles as she will allow.

 

[billchamb]

 
If I recall correctly, the diarrhea started following the vet visit where Sassy received a shot of medication? Depending on when you started to prepare for your move in the way of packing, removing items from rooms, etc., between the subsequent vet visits and the move preparations, this could be what is causing Sassy to feel fearful and it turn continue producing diarrhea. Especially if she has seen the same sort of activity on two other occasions when you have moved.

Being a cat from a shelter, you may not have learned much about Sassy's history, if she was surrendered or abandoned or as the result of a litter of kittens. The early history can play an important role in the type of personality a cat will develop and how they deal with certain situations. What is most important for a cat is routine. They don't like change as a rule. Some cats seem to have no problem with it however. Something else to consider is that while Striker may be dealing with things okay, he may feel some stress from the goings on, which may be manifesting in becoming more territorial with the litter boxes! You may want to get started on introducing a third litter box and try and devise a way so that only Sassy has access to it.

How is Striker doing on the new food? Is his elimination still okay, or has there been a change?

I am inclined to share your wife's opinion that a cat being on a lot of medications can take a toll. With some medications, diarrhea and constipation can be side effects. My approach is to try and use holistic and practical solutions before having to resort to medications, which can change a cat's disposition and sometimes cause other problems, but sometimes medications are the only solution.

I know the impending move is weighing heavily on your mind, but you still have a month where this situation can be turned around. Try and stay positive and when you can, take some time to engage Sassy in play and cuddles as she will allow.

Striker vs. Blue - This may be a problem.  It is beginning to appear that the changeover in food, even mixed with ZD, might be constipating him.  This is not good news.  He has been whiny and clingy for the past two days.  Hoping to see some stool output from him today.  Urine output is "normal" for him.

Sassy was a 9-12 week old kitten when we adopted.  Had worms early on, but otherwise no health complications.

I will credit the dry Blue for making them thirsty fiends.

Sassy is VERY particular about box cleanliness, almost diva-like.  Years ago, we had a Booda Dome (a mistake in hindsight, I know).  If it wasn't up to her standards, she would urinate on the ramp/steps into the dome causing it to collect/flood at the bottom.

When we moved from our first home to the apartment, she had one episode where she urinated on our son's bed (thanks be to God for a waterproof mattress protector).  We confined her to the bathroom where the litter pan was until she went.  Didn't have an problems after that.  Lived there for 4 years.

Moved here in Summer of 2012, set up two brand new boxes with a litter remnant.  All was well for the first 12-13 months.  Then...the beginnings of what we are presently mired in.

OH...and packing didn't begin until a couple of weeks ago, well after the diarrhea had started.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Striker vs. Blue - This may be a problem.  It is beginning to appear that the changeover in food, even mixed with ZD, might be constipating him.  This is not good news.  He has been whiny and clingy for the past two days.  Hoping to see some stool output from him today.  Urine output is "normal" for him.

Sassy was a 9-12 week old kitten when we adopted.  Had worms early on, but otherwise no health complications.

I will credit the dry Blue for making them thirsty fiends.

Sassy is VERY particular about box cleanliness, almost diva-like.  Years ago, we had a Booda Dome (a mistake in hindsight, I know).  If it wasn't up to her standards, she would urinate on the ramp/steps into the dome causing it to collect/flood at the bottom.

When we moved from our first home to the apartment, she had one episode where she urinated on our son's bed (thanks be to God for a waterproof mattress protector).  We confined her to the bathroom where the litter pan was until she went.  Didn't have an problems after that.  Lived there for 4 years.

Moved here in Summer of 2012, set up two brand new boxes with a litter remnant.  All was well for the first 12-13 months.  Then...the beginnings of what we are presently mired in.

OH...and packing didn't begin until a couple of weeks ago, well after the diarrhea had started.

Depending on when Striker had his last BM, it is not uncommon for BMs to slow down a bit when changing food, especially when the new food offers more nutrients. You may also likely see less output meaning the cat is retaining more nutrients. For reference, one of the 'solutions' to my male cat's constipation was to put him on a high fibre food. He pooped alright but the stools were large and smelly and very soft, suggesting that the food was going right through him. Some days it was too soft to the point of not being well formed. Not good. On an appropriate diet, a cat's stools should be uniform, not odorous. Its not uncommon to go from defecating every day to every couple of days. This doesn't mean the cat is constipated.

It sounds like the packing may not have anything to do with the diarrhea, but change can have this result as you have experienced with the elimination episodes from the past. You have made so many efforts as far as the litter boxes, and it sounds like you are careful in ensuring that everything is clean, and so it can't be the state of the litter boxes. Changing to the bigger open air type has had a positive change. What did the second vet think as to why he feels the diarrhea is behavioral?

 

[billchamb]

Thanks.

Vet #2 wasn't completely worried about the diarrhea at the time, more the going outside the box that he attributed to behavior.  Realizing she has always been a "high-strung" cat, he added the Amitrip.  I believe we were chalking up the diarrhea to residual effects of vet #1 shot.  Vet #2 started with Pro-biotic to try and restore balance, but that hasn't really helped (nor has the pre/pro-biotic available in Blue apparently.)

 

[teenee]

Just a thought...........has anything changed in your home or where your kitties' litter boxes are??  For example new paint, new furnace, new rug, etc.  Seems odd that all of a sudden one doesn't use the box and the other is vomiting.  Could the vomiting be caused by him getting into something toxic?

 

[mservant]

   I think I'd be at my doctors by now and asking for sedatives to get me through......   is there nothing more the vet can give them both to help with the diarrhoea as that must be distressing for both of them as well as both of you.

 

[amandatzl]

I am not sure if you believe in this but gave you thought about using an animal communicator? I used to be skeptical until this one in particular came up with some pretty special details. She can do the readings over the phone with you sending a picture in ahead of time. The one i use is from the website animaltalk.ca. It's 40 pet animal on the phone. It seems like you gave tried everything else, what could it hurt?