Any breeders here?

[kaikrishna1111]

I had some questions for breeders if there happen to be any on the board. We have been considering doing a small cattery on our property for some time. We have an acre and a lot of room for a nice set up. We are home most of the time, don't travel, and spend a lot of time with our animals. I think we would be good candidates for breeding. I would love to teach my daughter about breeding and even do some 4H work around it. We would definetely like to breed bengals, I have bengals and Savannahs and know more about their personalities than other cats. We aren't doing it as a money making venture, just for the love of the breed. Although I am hoping that the kittens help to pay the vet costs, ect.
We aren't in a hurry, and we would like to start small and do everything by the book. Any advice? I have no idea how to get started, and I feel like only the more lax breeders will even talk to me at this point. I don't want our cattery to be that type of cattery that sells a bunch of cats to anyone to make a buck, but those are the types of people who want to sell cats to someone who is starting out.
I would love to find a breeder to take me under their wing, teach me a bit about showing and breeding. Any advice is helpful.

 

[StefanZ]

You do already have bengals and savannahs?
You can contact their breeders. You can go the whole chain up, if the breeder herself isnt cooperative. Say, contact owners of the studs, and so on... Sooner or later you will met someone BOTH friendly AND knowleable.
They will only be happy - it is always nice to know how it is going for ones "grandchildren".
And you will get some contacts along the way, as long as you and they are friendly.
Unless, of course, the bengals you already have were from backyard breeders, so these contacts are of very limited use...
and or your uncooperative breeder do owns also the Sirs, so the whole chain ends there.
(Catteries in Sweden are usually very small, and the Sirs are owned by private people, them being family pet cats, so here is such a "up along the chain" entirely possible).

Do visit all the shows nearby and the father away you afford, and talk with people there. You will learn, and you will get an reputation you are interested.

I wonder, cant you try to show up with some of your cats you already do have? If they arent very good - in the castrate class, so you wont look ridiculous....

In castrate class they will have more understanding you participate mostly because you want to learn, not because you fancy yourself a first class breeder - participating with a pet quality fertile cat...

Btw, if you start your cattery for real. What will you do with the (pet quality/castrate?) cats you do already have??


Good luck!

 

[artgecko]

I'm not a breeder, but let me start with saying kudos to you for wanting to go about this the right way.

There used to be several breeders that would post here...but I haven't been on the forums for the last couple years and it appears that they no longer frequent the boards here.

That said, I used to frequent this section of the forum and many people would post with similar situations to you... The advice that they routinely gave was this:

1. Go to shows near you and find a breeder / exhibitor with animals you like...talk to many breeders and find someone that seems to be a good "role model" that will be willing to give you advice..Also, FYI check out shows with all of the organizations...CFA, TICA, (I can't remember the third one at the moment)... One organization may have more shows near you.

2. Start with showing a show-quality neutered / altered cat... in the "premier" class.. It will be easier for you to purchase one for this purpose from a good breeder (they are seldom willing to let go intact cats with breeding rights to a newbie) and this will give you a taste of what showing is like...If you don't want to show (to evaluate your breeding stock, and help promote the breed and educate yourself) it isn't worth breeding because you will end up breeding low-quality animals.

3. It will be dificult to get started with showing bengals successfully (they are SO popular right now)..you might want to consider a breed that is less popular, so easier to get placed in shows (given that you can find one that you like)...Also consider that bengals can't be shown with CFA (they don't allow animals that are hybrid-based)..so you might have better luck with a breed that can be show in all of the organizations.

4. Usually, with breeding you MIGHT break even...It's more likely that you will end up loosing some money due to travel / show / vet costs..plus the initial cost of buying high quality animals to breed from and showing them to championship status.

One other thing that has helped me, is to look at show records on the organization websites and see who has cats consistently placing in the top spots...then searching for those catteries online and seeing if you like their animals... This will help you judge quality and find a cattery with animals that you like..then you can look for these catteries at shows that you go to.

I hope this helps! I wish I knew where to direct you to the breeders that used to frequent here. I have often thought about breeding myself, but haven't had the time / money to even consider owning a premiere cat to show yet.

Good luck!
Artgecko

 

[kaikrishna1111]

Stephen, yes I have a Savannah and two bengals. I thought that my breeder was a knowledgable breeder, she puts on a good show, does everything I heard you want from a breeder, opens her cattery to you, spends a lot of time, but the more I have met other people with cats from her cattery, I realize she is really in it for the money and not putting the money back into her cats, and not showing, and sending out cats with health issues. Of course I am planning on keeping my pet cats when I have a cattery, I also have ferals here. As long as the cattery starts small and slowly I shouldn't exceed any cat limits.
ArtGecko, I think the show route is a good idea. I am going to a show this winter and am hoping to get some information and education, although I hadn't thought of the hybrid issue and aren't sure if this is TICA or if bengal breeders will be there. It is hard to imagine breeding any other breed, not even sure what I would do if not bengals, I am not a long hair Persian type cat person, cute as they are, and I just love my bengals. Perhaps Abyssinian is about the only other way I would consider. Obviously Savannah but that is a little more than I want to bite off right now and I think bengal would probably be easier than that.
I appreciate the advice, I think you are right, start slowly, go to shows, show my interest and honest intentions and take it from there. I love my bengals but don't think they are show quality, my boy was a bit of a runt and is smaller, and my girl is very cute but pet quality. I should probably concentrate on getting a show quality cat, I like the idea of a neutered cat that we could show.

 

[nerdrock]

I breed dogs, I know it's not the same thing but there are similarities that can be made.

1. You shouldn't do it to make money, period. A good breeder (at least with dogs) rarely makes their money back. You have to raise the adults until they are of breeding age, show them, then breed them, there is extra care and money put in during the pregnancy, and then you have a litter to raise after that which is also more money. Assuming everything goes smoothly, it's still hard to make your money back unless you charge a lot for the litter. And what if something doesn't go right? Then you have vet bills, and if it doesn't go right in the middle of the night you have to deal with the emergency clinic - many of them are NOT breeder friendly, and some are just downright bad.

2. You have to be prepared for the worst. Are you prepared to raise a little by bottle feeding if the mother dies during pregnancy? What if she needs a csection and turns on the litter? Are you prepared to deal with birthing complications, breech kittens, deformed or underdeveloped kittens? Will you know when something isn't going right and you need to get to the vet? Will you have a way to get to the vet?

3. How are you going to sell the kittens? How much are you going to sell them for? Is the market in your area flooded with the breed that you want to work with? How are you going to screen potential homes? Are you willing to take back every single kitten that you produce if the family decides they don't want it? Even years down the road? If you don't, then all those kittens you produce could potentially end up in shelters and a good number of those would be put down.

4. I have heard of some diseases that absolutely ravage catteries, how are you going to work to prevent these from coming into yours?

I'm not trying to discourage you at all, I'm sorry if it sounds like that, but there are lots of people that get into breeding for the wrong reasons or don't think about every little aspect, then when something goes wrong they panic.

What I recommend for anyone considering breeding ANYTHING - go to shows, show the animals you have - even if they aren't the best quality. Make friends with other breeders and talk to them about breeding. Learn the standards, research the genetics, find a breeder that you share similar views with and see if they will mentor you.

I got my first dachshund 4 and a half years ago. She is one of the worst bred dogs I have ever seen, she does look like a dachshund - but she has a lot of genetic issues including epilepsy. When she was diagnosed with epilepsy at 5 months old, I decided that I wanted to breed to produce pets for people that were as free from genetic defects as possible. I went to a ton of dog shows, I met a lot of breeders - many of them told me to put my dog down, those that did, I just skipped past. I joined forums and talked to people on there, I researched as much as I possible could (and still do) - I still don't know much and it's been about 4 years. We found a mentor and she helped us find a dog. We did things backwards and got our male before our female, we started showing him and he's doing very well. About 6 months later we got a great deal on a female, unfortunately my friend that has her can't show because of medical reasons, but I will be showing her whenever possible. She will be two years old in September.

Good luck with what you decide to do!

 

[kaikrishna1111]

Thank you Nerdrock, you aren't discouraging me and I appreciate the knowledge and getting all of the information. I worked at a vet for many years and still work with rescues, so I have raised kittens, getting up at all hours every three hours to feed, ect. And I am used to screening homes, ect. And taking back ferals or placements that don't work out. I think losing kittens, mother or babies, would be the part that would make me think. I hate losing animals and take it hard. I don't have a tough exterior for those things. But on the positive side trying to breed genetically strong healthy cats and matching them with good families sounds good. I also hope I am not TOO picky about families that I end up with a bunch of kittens, that is another reason I want to stay small and deal with high end cats. I want people who are looking for responsible breeders because they are responsible. I can be way too picky about even placing ferals, when I know that there are ferals being euthanized every day.

 

[nerdrock]

Originally Posted by kaikrishna1111

Thank you Nerdrock, you aren't discouraging me and I appreciate the knowledge and getting all of the information. I worked at a vet for many years and still work with rescues, so I have raised kittens, getting up at all hours every three hours to feed, ect. And I am used to screening homes, ect. And taking back ferals or placements that don't work out. I think losing kittens, mother or babies, would be the part that would make me think. I hate losing animals and take it hard. I don't have a tough exterior for those things. But on the positive side trying to breed genetically strong healthy cats and matching them with good families sounds good. I also hope I am not TOO picky about families that I end up with a bunch of kittens, that is another reason I want to stay small and deal with high end cats. I want people who are looking for responsible breeders because they are responsible. I can be way too picky about even placing ferals, when I know that there are ferals being euthanized every day.

You should see the hoops we make people we don't know personally jump through to even get on our waiting list! I have actually flat out refused to put people we do know, even family, on our waiting list because I don't think they will be a good home. My cousin is still mad at me for it, but they just gave up their lab a few months ago because she couldn't housebreak it and it was too rambunctious. It was a puppy and an easy breed at that, what would she have done if I gave her a stubborn breed puppy - I know she wouldn't return it to me because she would be embarrassed.

We have actually gotten some negative feedback from other breeders about our program because we are keeping it small and not selling any of our adults when they are past breeding age. The way we see it, they aren't disposable like that and I would be way too attached after raising a puppy, having it in my home for 5 years and going through so much for with it, only to have to rehome it. Luckily, between the two of us (my friend and I), we'll be able to have 8 dogs at a time, which will still probably only mean 2-4 breeding dogs.

I'm glad that you've worked in rescue and with a vet, you sound well prepared. If something does go wrong, look at it and see why it went wrong - it's an unfortunate part of breeding but it's not always your fault and no matter how much you study the breed, pedigrees, etc there are some things that you won't find out until you breed that animal for the first time. It is important to find out why it happened though - be it environmental, genetic, etc so that you can take those steps to help prevent it the next time.

One thing that a lot of people don't think about when they start breeding - look up pictures of different genetic disorders and deformities and save them on your computer. If you have a deformed kitten in your litter, take a picture of it - no matter how gruesome, so that you have that as a reference for the future. It is also incredibly helpful to others and you'll be surprised how often you might look at them. Because of this I was able to help a fellow breeder identify a problem with one of her newborn pups and we were able to save the pup so that she could get him to the vet in the morning - they don't have an emergency vet near where she lives.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by nerdrock

We have actually gotten some negative feedback from other breeders about our program because we are keeping it small and not selling any of our adults when they are past breeding age. The way we see it, they aren't disposable like that and I would be way too attached after raising a puppy, having it in my home for 5 years and going through so much for with it, only to have to rehome it.

I have also gotten some negative feedback on the same matter, in this forum actually. But that's how almost all catteries are run in this part of the world: small family catteries who keep their adults because they are family members, not just some breeding stock you dump after you've used it.
I have given one stud to live with a friend of mine because my neutered alpha cat didn't accept him and was very aggressive towards him, and it would just have been selfish to try to force them live together. I have 2 neuters and 2 intact cats at the moment, so I'm definitely keeping it small.
And living near the arctic circle really doesn't give the possibility to build outdoor catteries which I've seen some US breeders have. When temperatures can easily go below -30C/-22F in winter, it would need to be an actual proper house to keep the cats warm enough and that obviously is very expensive (and needs a permit to build another house on your property, which usually isn't doable).

 

[StefanZ]

Originally Posted by kaikrishna1111

I worked at a vet for many years and still work with rescues, so I have raised kittens, getting up at all hours every three hours to feed, ect. And I am used to screening homes, ect. And taking back ferals

Excellent! This is giving you lotsa of oh so well needed knowledge. And ALSO a clean conscience!

But having a breeder cattery you must take verry careful precautions.

Perhaps you must even leave the active work with ferales, and work with them at a distance... Helping with advices, money, syringes for forcefeeding, perhaps left over medicines or food. Sharing your network of buyers, talking the buyers into adopting an ex-feral as companion cat to their pure breed.

Quite a few of the breeders I know are helping ferales in some ways, as skissed above. They ARE good, nice people, loving cats.
But very few of them let their cattery cats have ANY contact with cats from the outside.

It is not only safety of their own animals, and their own cattery. And protecting the many years of their genetic work.
It is also the question of trust among breeders. Say, their stud is guested by "wifes" from other breeders. The other breeder MUST have a 100% trust there will not be any contagion nor problems...

So again, proceed with helping ferales. But do it either on distance - or think out double, thrice, safety routines.

Good luck!

 

[kaikrishna1111]

Thank you both for your help, I really appreciate it. I already worry about my ferals with my tame cats, so the issue isn't lost on me. They were vaccinated when they were spayed and neutered, but I realize that will probably be the last time I can vaccinate them and that concerns me. Even giving meds has been difficult with the ferals, I have managed to pull it off by putting it in canned food but it makes things harder. So that is a very real issue. Right now I have four property ferals that hang out on the edge of my property, I have a shed that has some recliners and pillows and blankets in it where they sleep and they eat near the shed. So yes, if I am serious I should probably think that issue through and how to keep them seperated. Lots to think about, thanks.

 

[marsch21]

I have been breeding Ragdolls for about 6 years. The advice you have been given is a excellent way to get into the Cat Fancy. We showed neuters for two years prior to getting our first breeding cat.

Breeding is very rewarding but can also be stressful. Back in 2008 we learned that we had T. Foetus in our cattery and it cost over a thousand dollars to eradicate it. Some Bengals have HCM in their lines so you must study pedigrees carefully and get your cats scanned. I know many great Bengal breeders here in California. Also many whole Bengals are sprayers so be prepared for that. We have more issues with our females spraying then our males.

One important thing to consider is checking with local authorites on limit laws and permits. We were under the radar until a disgruntled pet buyer turned us in. Lucky for us, that we were able to obtain a kennel license for our cattery. With other cases, cats have been confiscated and put into shelters.

 

[kaikrishna1111]

Awww Marsh, we had a ragdoll for 17 years. I fostered a rescue who was pregnant and she had a perfect ragdoll kitty, she was hilarious, very fiesty and grumpy, impatient, not at all a hunter, lazy, but cute and beautiful too. Not sure if that is typical of ragdolls or just her. I am used to sprayers but don't love it, one of the rescue girls here sprays. I have worried about dueling intact males spraying, but I figured that was part of the package. I really do like the idea of showing, I think that is a perfect way to learn more, and if I decide it is too much, then I have had the fun of showing my cat and get to have another beautiful bengal.

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by nerdrock

We have actually gotten some negative feedback from other breeders about our program because we are keeping it small and not selling any of our adults when they are past breeding age. The way we see it, they aren't disposable like that

Entire cats don't always get along, even when breeders are retired they may not fit into the household so it's far kinder to give them the life they deserve as someone's beloved bed cat.
You also cannot move a program forward, bringing in new blood lines if you keep every cat used in the program. Unless you only plan to breed for a couple of years and not advance, but what's the point in that.

Originally Posted by marsch21

The advice you have been given is a excellent way to get into the Cat Fancy. We showed neuters for two years prior to getting our first breeding cat.

I showed neuters for two years also, I didn't set out to breed I just wanted to show neuters which then turned into a passion for wanting to keep the breed going. As I was in contact with that breeder over the years and formed a friendship she was willing to let me have a girl (which became 2 girls

) and I use her stud boys for now something I am extremely grateful for as it give me access to varied and imported lines.

 

[nerdrock]

Originally Posted by missymotus

Entire cats don't always get along, even when breeders are retired they may not fit into the household so it's far kinder to give them the life they deserve as someone's beloved bed cat.
You also cannot move a program forward, bringing in new blood lines if you keep every cat used in the program. Unless you only plan to breed for a couple of years and not advance, but what's the point in that.

I am aware of that, it's the same with dogs - obviously there are some exceptions where it is in the best interest of the animal to be rehomed.

I do believe that you can move a program forward and still keep many of your existing animals. Perhaps it's different with cats than dogs, but by keeping your studs down to the minimum number, or hiring a stud, you can have mostly females. This is the plan with our breeding program, we've crunched the numbers and it works. Our maximum is 8-10 dogs between two houses, I know people with breeding programs that are making excellent progress with less dogs - one I know has only two breeding females and uses outside studs that are either closely related (to lock in traits/bring out faults) or that are more distant. Our breed also lives relatively long - 15 years is average, 18 is not uncommon and 20 is not unheard of. The average is slightly skewed because of how many are put down due to back problems between ages 4-8 and because of bad breeding practices.

Please explain why you don't think a program can advance on a small scale? I'm honestly interested and I do think it would be on topic with this thread.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by nerdrock

Please explain why you don't think a program can advance on a small scale? I'm honestly interested and I do think it would be on topic with this thread.

I would like to hear this too. Basically you're saying that most Nordic (or should I even say European) catteries are going nowhere with their breeding? Where do your cats lines come from?

We have this system over here (so common that every cattery I know is doing this over here unless they only have couple of cats), I don't know a proper translation for it so I'll just call it now 'fostering':
The breeder gets a breeding quality kitten, let's say a male, and he goes straight to live with a 'foster' home. The breeder owns the kitten and has made a contract with the 'foster' home which usually would be like this: The breeder is going to use the cat to sire x amount of litters and after that he will be neutered and the 'foster' parents become his legal owners (usually friends and family are the first choices for 'foster' families, for example I know this breeder lady who keeps all the females, and her mother keeps the males). Or they go by age, let's say that when the male is 3 years old he will be neutered and the 'foster' parents get the ownership. That way the cat has lived his entire life in the same home and doesn't need to be rehomed as an adult and can stay with his people.

Usually these work so well that they may end up giving another breeding quality kitten to live with the same people. If the 'foster' home isn't interested in showing, the breeder will do it, but many people get hooked on it after trying it once..

The breeder obviously pays for all breeding related expenses (tests, shows etc.), and the 'foster' family pays for the regular stuff (after all they are getting the cat for free or very cheap after he's neutered).

 

[carolina]

to me, as a person who knows nothing about breeding, it sounds a lot less heartless and a lot more humane and caring for those kitties... IMHO, I would like to think that by then they have become part of the family already... I guess I am a sucker!

 

[StefanZ]

A drawback of these small catteries is, many works short term. As they take 1-3 litters on their family female darling... And there it often ends. Next session perhaps after 10-15 years when the old darlings are gone...
They CAN produce good kittens, as they try as hard they can to find the best possible stud to get the best possible litter.
But in long term, they seldom got forward.
I think much of the criticque is based on this.

But it doesnt need to be as bad as that.
One is the system of "foster-homes" as NorthernGlow told about. Which is quite common here with our nordic small catteries.
Second is, few of the catteries have own studs. We use heavily the not yet neutered males owned by private buyers. A male without spraying tendencies usually begins spray firstly fully grown, ie 16-20 months. Thus there is the window where of 8-12 months where they young male cat can serve as stud, without any real problems for the private owner. The night sleep being the only sacrifice

So in practice, here in our nordic countries it is much easier to find good studs, and have many to choose, than in many countries with big catteries. Where the owners tend to keep on their studs.

Third and most important.
The small catteries make it possible to follow EVERY kitten, and become personal friend with EVERY interested buyer.
If the buyer is interested, and the kitten of good quality - and many ARE! The buyer gets often more interested. If not in beginning so with time. Gets into participate in shows. If having a male, lend it for stud-service (or take home visiting "wifes"). Or - herself become a breeder.

The seller often becoming a mentor if the buyer wants to do some breeding. Take a couple of litters or with time do some more serious breeding and be a breeder on her own.

Thus - the owner of our small cattery has often de facto at his disposal not 2 queens, but perhaps 4-6. Also by recommending the less experienced breeders suitable studs spreads the influence.
Not even mentioning friends and networks and other influences by hers reputation, willingness to help, etc.

 

[anita1216]

I love my Sphynx, love their quirky traits and hilarious zest for life.I wuld not breed for anything, to much hard work

The breeder our group came from keeps a few adults, favorites if you will, but routinely adopts out her retired animals. It really is less stressful, they get more attention and finally have homes where they get to be top cat all of time. I know it seems hard on the cats, but they truly adjust quickly and learn to love new people just as much as they did their first human.

This has allowed her the room and resources to bring in new lines, to help further the breed and continue to weed out genetic issues when they do crop up. My youngest naked man has HCM and I adopted him as a special needs kit. These things come up and it makes many breeders question if they should continue or not. As a pet owner I have been able to step up and take on a baby( not much of a baby anymore, he will be 2 in February) that will need more care and it will get expensive with heart echos.

I guess where I am going with this? Good breeders usually have a following of repeat adopters. Some of us are willing to take on those that are less than "perfect". It does make a difference to a breeding program. You have to be willing to take the time to be friends with your "extended" family and to be there for them.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by StefanZ

Third and most important.
The small catteries make it possible to follow EVERY kitten, and become personal friend with EVERY interested buyer.
If the buyer is interested, and the kitten of good quality - and many ARE! The buyer gets often more interested. If not in beginning so with time. Gets into participate in shows. If having a male, lend it for stud-service (or take home visiting "wifes"). Or - herself become a breeder.

The seller often becoming a mentor if the buyer wants to do some breeding. Take a couple of litters or with time do some more serious breeding and be a breeder on her own.

That is exactly what happened to me!

First I got a pet quality kitten (pet quality just because longhairs weren't recognized yet back then) and just few months after that I got a kitten which was the best of the litter. His sister was bought by a new breeder to be a founding queen of her new cattery because of the good lines.
I decided to try showing, he did very well and that obviously made me more interested. My kitty was (and still is) an easy male so I didn't get him neutered because I was showing him and his breeder asked me if I would consider providing 'stud services' because someone was interested. That's what I did, and my boy had couple of 'girlfriends' visiting him.

Four years later, here I am and have my own small cattery.