Another vertical pee-er question

bevocat

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At my wits' end here. Please bear with any scattered thoughts. I've been a cat carer for the last 27 years. I've dealt with kidney failure, allergies, mites, cancer, hyperthyroid, and idiopathic FLUTD. I've never dealt with this exhausting chronic problem before. My 7 year old boy (altered at about 12 weeks just before I adopted him, let's call him LongBoy) is driving me crazy with this vertical peeing thing he started not too long ago. I have a 12 year old girl I already had when I got him, another 12 year old girl who came to live with us about 5.5 years ago, and another 6-7 year old boy who came to live with us about 4.5 years ago when he almost died from urinary blockage. So, like I said, generally familiar with urinary stuff already.

For some reason, LB seems to have "forgotten" how to squat to pee. I've tried every conceivable permutation of litter box I can think of, and of course I have 5 litter boxes throughout the house so they stay clean and nobody has territory issues.

I have an ancient hooded litter box that literally came as a hand-me-down with that first cat 27 years ago (long may it reign) that I adore because it is made so sturdily. He'll walk right in and pee out the front.

I've tried the Arm & Hammer box with the white half-top (high sides, just not enclosed on top). Pee either goes over the edge or runs down to the rim where the lid joins the pan, runs down the sides and then onto the floor.

I've bought three of those Van Ness translucent enclosed XL boxes with the swinging doors. Same results as above. Plus they're made like crap and the two I bought three months ago already cracked and broke.

I've tried the long low storage tote without a lid. He pees at the very edge and it'll splash off the side.

I've gotten a giant tote and left the lid off and tried to encourage him to use that one, including giving him little "steps" to facilitate getting in and out. He used it well for a few days and then went back to using the other ones incorrectly. I can't just replace all of them with the totes because the one girl came to me weighing 23 pounds and she still has arthritis in her back and legs even though she's skinny now. So we need options with lower entry. Which leads to all of the above problems.

I finally caved and ordered a Kat Kave last week. Dang, it's a nice box! I thought all my problems would be solved. The reviews on Amazon mentioned that the cat would have to squat to pee out of the opening, so I didn't think I'd have that problem since he won't do that. I left the lid off because I don't think they want to be in that enclosed space with the lid. He used it right at first. Today, he managed to pee right out the front. A. gain. I just don't know what to do to teach him to turn his butt around when he goes in. It's maddening. He never did this before.

Any ideas you have would be totally appreciated!
 

Tobermory

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I don’t know how to teach him to turn around, but here’s what I did for a “elevator butt pee’er” at the shelter where I used to volunteer. I bought high-sided Sterilite containers and cut out an opening at the long end. My theory was—and it proved to be true—that Rain wouldn’t want to pee with her face against the box. So she would enter and turn to give herself more room.

We also taped pee pads on the wall and allowed them to drape inside the box so when she squirted straight out, it hit the pee pad and was absorbed.
FA1F5F26-24BA-461A-8D56-A585C4AC3500.jpeg


I wonder if he has some arthritis, even though he’s not that old. You could try him on Cosequin and see if that makes a difference. One of my arthritic old ladies has trouble squatting, and I give her Cosequin, fish oil, and CBD—and I also put pee pads outside the entrance of the litter boxes to catch the squirts.
CE09A3E8-A941-4A8B-8563-E1344D85D401.jpeg
 

FeebysOwner

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Hi. I wasn't sure if you have tried a litter box within a much bigger box (it may what Tobermory Tobermory is suggesting - wasn't sure about that either). He would have to step into the bigger box to get to the actual litter box. So, while he may still pee over the edge of the litter box, it would be inside the bigger box. The bigger box could be lined with pee pads - either disposable ones or those you can buy that are washable. Depends on whether you want to buy a lot of disposable pads or wash a lot of the ones that are re-usable. Would this work for your older girl as well?

I think you should consider putting him on some kind of treatment for arthritis as well, just to see if he could have some early onset arthritis, as mentioned above. I put Feeby on Glyco Flex Plus and it seems to help her quite a bit. It did not stop her from being a stand-up pee'er, but it has enabled her to get into a box that is about 9 inches high, and that is high enough to stop her being able to pee over the edge of the box. Feeby does the same thing, in that she gets in the box and always pees without turning around or squatting, so her box is the same height at the front entry as it is on the sides and back.

Is your older girl on arthritis meds of any kind? That might help her too.
 
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Jem

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You mention that the standing to pee is a newer problem..Has he seen a vet about it? I mention this because this was the first symptom my boy displayed for several months before we found out he had urinary crystals. He never blocked, but the crystals were causing discomfort.
When he goes into the litter box does he usually turn around, or was it just the hooded box that he didn't turn around in? Is he a wall or corner pee'r?
I know you mention not wanting to change all your litter boxes, but the high sided storage tote with a cut out for your arthritic kitty seems like the best option.
Like Tobermory Tobermory , I use the clear sterilite totes, but I made the cut out in the center of the long side, as my boy would always turn and face his rear end towards the short walls/and corners. The tote I used was also much bigger (longer). So even if he aimed in the corner on the same side as the cut out, there was over 12 inches of high wall on either side, that he never hit over the edge of the hole.
1594141280685.png

This is the pic. It's called "Sterelite ClearView Tote"
It's 104 L (25 Gallons), dimensions are 35x19x13 inches (89x48x33 cm)
 
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bevocat

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You mention that the standing to pee is a newer problem..Has he seen a vet about it? I mention this because this was the first symptom my boy displayed for several months before we found out he had urinary crystals. He never blocked, but the crystals were causing discomfort.
He's got an appointment tomorrow morning. :) He regurgitated his breakfast today, threw up bile on Sunday, and Thursday had been lethargic, squinty-eyed, and generally ADR. He was totally bright-eyed and bushy-tailed the next morning though, and apart from the vomits and still peeing over the side of the box, fine in every way, playful and energetic.

Now the other boy, he has idiopathic FLUTD and had to have the PU surgery, and he actually just came off a round of abx for a UTI. He never had crystals in any case. LB better not have any crystals! I feed him the raw homemade rabbit/chicken diet from catinfo.org and even add extra water to that!

When he goes into the litter box does he usually turn around, or was it just the hooded box that he didn't turn around in? Is he a wall or corner pee'r?
I know you mention not wanting to change all your litter boxes, but the high sided storage tote with a cut out for your arthritic kitty seems like the best option.
Like Tobermory Tobermory , I use the clear sterilite totes, but I made the cut out in the center of the long side, as my boy would always turn and face his rear end towards the short walls/and corners. The tote I used was also much bigger (longer). So even if he aimed in the corner on the same side as the cut out, there was over 12 inches of high wall on either side, that he never hit over the edge of the hole.
View attachment 342131
This is the pic. It's called "Sterelite ClearView Tote"
It's 104 L (25 Gallons), dimensions are 35x19x13 inches (89x48x33 cm)
I'd say he's a wall pee-er. He used to turn around. He used to squat down. Sometimes he does turn around, sometimes he'll walk in without turning around and pee. It doesn't seem to matter whether there's a hood or a lid or not. I observed him a couple of days ago walk in to my almost 30 year old hooded litter box, keep his head shoved up against the wall and pee at the entrance. Like, why don't you just turn around so your head isn't hitting the wall?!

Oh, I don't mind changing all the litter boxes! As demonstrated by the three different types of litter box I have bought in the last five months. It's just that if I have one with the cutout for the old gal, he'll use that one, walk in, and pee out the entrance.

And 13" would be trivial for him to pee over, especially once I've added the litter. The one I got three months ago is 28 gallon, and the bottom dimensions are 21.5" x 12" x 17.5". That's just about tall enough to keep him from peeing over the top. But he ignores it in favor of the ones he doesn't have to jump in from the top.

Homz Plastic Storage, Modular Stackable Storage Bins with Blue Latching Handles,112 Quart, Clear, Stackable
1594144675607.png

Okay, assuming everything comes back okay at the vet tomorrow, I have a tentative plan. That tote came in a 2 pack. I will cut a u-shape out of the long side in the center, to see if that encourages him to walk in and turn since it's not very big in that dimension. If he would just turn, any of the tall options I have should work for him. I will make the height of the entrance as high as the highest of our other boxes, because I know everybody can use those.
 
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bevocat

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I wonder if he has some arthritis, even though he’s not that old. You could try him on Cosequin and see if that makes a difference. One of my arthritic old ladies has trouble squatting, and I give her Cosequin, fish oil, and CBD—and I also put pee pads outside the entrance of the litter boxes to catch the squirts.
You see? This is why I tried to come here and shed my preconceptions so I would be open to seeing things I was blind to before! I used cosequin for my two cats who passed away in 2007 and 2012. Why have I not thought of it now? No clue. We're totally getting some! And I have all the old towels from when JB had his blockages and surgeries (and frankly in case he still dribbles a bit), so those are going to go in front of the boxes as pee pads. Again, why did I not see that before?! That's literally what those towels are for. Fish oil he already gets in his raw homemade diet.

Hi. I wasn't sure if you have tried a litter box within a much bigger box (it may what Tobermory Tobermory is suggesting - wasn't sure about that either). He would have to step into the bigger box to get to the actual litter box. So, while he may still pee over the edge of the litter box, it would be inside the bigger box. The bigger box could be lined with pee pads - either disposable ones or those you can buy that are washable. Depends on whether you want to buy a lot of disposable pads or wash a lot of the ones that are re-usable. Would this work for your older girl as well?
Actually, yes, sort of. I have a washing machine or freezer tray underneath the big box that's supposed to be his. It's not tall, but it's meant to be a sort of "airlock" and contain splashes. I think we had the Kat Kave placed incorrectly yesterday when he peed out of the front of that, onto the tray and the floor (and hence under the litter box and tray also). My fond hope is that if I put the clear tote in it, with the center cut out, and pushed all the way to one edge of the tray, he will walk on the tray, into the tote, turn and pee. Even if he pees on the back wall, it's high enough it won't splash out so it doesn't matter if it's all the way against the edge of the tray. And even if he just puts his front feet in, doesn't turn, and pees, it should get caught by the tray.

This has been seriously helpful, I'm so grateful. I have hope for the first time in months.
 

fionasmom

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I think that all the advice has been covered here and all I can add is that when I had this problem a very large plastic container finally resolved it. I agree with getting the vet involved though in case there is another reason.

If you have not cut plastic boxes for a while, it is easier if you heat the blade first. ;)
 

cataholic07

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My first cat didnt squat either and peed outside the litterbox because her back end wasn't fully inside the litter box. We ended up just putting pee pads in front, and the gabapentin did help. She started again when sadly she got GI cancer. UTI isn't just diet based, it can also be genetic and stress related.
 
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bevocat

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If you mean FLUTD, then yes, I know it's not just diet-based. As I mentioned, my other boy, JB, has idiopathic FLUTD and has had to have the PU surgery (so he's basically an innie not an outie anymore), and it was likely diet and stress induced. But a change of diet, hospitalization, and a stable healthy home (we basically adopted him for medical reasons) were not enough to stop him from needing the surgery.

Generally, though, crystal formation has a dietary component, either struvite or oxylate crystals, so hopefully they will test the pH of his urine tomorrow and we'll have more information.

Usually my fiance is home all day because he has disabilities, and I go to work away from the home, working from home one day a week. With the global pandemic, I've been exclusively working from home for the past four months almost. Although I am in my "office" where he is not allowed to go, I suppose it's possible that's a stressor for him. In the Before Time, I would go in the room with the noisy door that goes up and get in a metal box and wouldn't come back into the house for half a day, so maybe it's confusing to him that I'm gone and reappear many times a day? I think he thinks he rules the roost when I'm not here, and maybe we're butting heads because he doesn't get to be the top cat for half the day four days a week? Who knows? Cats are weird, and he's not talking. ;)

Thanks for the tip on drilling the holes and heating the blade! I knew about the drilling holes but forgot about heating the blade in this context.I recently cut a lot of styrofoam, so again, I should've already had that in mind! I blame pandemic-brain. Who are all these people with extra free time to take up cross-stitch and such?! I'm busier than ever.
 
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bevocat

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Alright, this is going to be postponed anyway. Apparently he has pancreatitis?! And the other boy has elevated liver values, not eating well, and vomited yesterday several times. So we're dealing with that first, obviously.
 

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Alright, this is going to be postponed anyway. Apparently he has pancreatitis?! And the other boy has elevated liver values, not eating well, and vomited yesterday several times. So we're dealing with that first, obviously.
Oh boy! I hope they get better soon. :alright:
And who knows, perhaps it's the pancreatitis that is causing the peeing issue. I've heard of instances where a tooth problem caused kitty to pee outside the box. So perhaps, the pancreatitis, was causing some pain or pressure that made squatting difficult.
 
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bevocat

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Yep, that's what I'm thinking. I know if my stomach hurts I don't feel like jumping around and working out. Nor if I have to go to the bathroom. Put those together and I can see how somebody would definitely opt for walking into the box without turning around or squatting down, just doing the bare minimum. I guess I should be grateful he's still going to a box at all.

But I'm definitely holding off on any new meds into the mix while people are taking antibiotics and/or pain meds.
 

Jem

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But I'm definitely holding off on any new meds into the mix while people are taking antibiotics and/or pain meds.
Oh for sure, follow your vet's advice.
Hoping for a speedy recovery and a little extra bonus that he pees normal again!
 
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bevocat

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Things are doing a little better. Everybody really does seem to love the Kat Kave litter box. I have the lid sort of half-on, half-off so it's not too dark in there.

Pee boy is feeling better and I've put towels down in front of all the boxes. I think I've had one cleanup in the last 9 days, so it's a huge relief.

I've got some ondansetron for the other boy finally, which seems to allow him to get back to his wolfing-down-food self. He's still taking Baytril (and therefore acidophilus!) but his urine culture came back totally negative. And he continues to pee fine, so another relief!
 
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bevocat

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I can’t believe I completely forgot I posted here and let a year and a half go by! I just literally forgot all about it. That’s my life these days.

I didn’t even realize I’d only been giving him Cosequin this short a time. Seems like forever.

So I ended up with a Kat Kave and a ModCat litter box and those in addition to the other options are satisfactory to my cats. I still have to have an “airlock” tray under all of them but that’s fine.

So we’re getting along pretty well these days except for the continuing vomiting. I had to transition one girl off the raw food onto Dave’s chicken. She will need to go for a biopsy to investigate IBD/lymphoma. The other old girl still vomits in the morning unless isn’t allowed to go more than 8 hours without eating. The FLUTD boy is okay right now (knock on wood), and LongBoy here has regurgitated his dinner twice in the last week or so. With this news about IBD/lymphoma girl, I really need him to lay off!

But anyway, I wanted to report the successful litter boxes. Thanks for all the support!
 

Tobermory

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I’m glad that things have worked out with the litter boxes but sorry to hear about the health issues. Iris used to vomit her morning meal two or three times a week. Once I started giving her a probiotic (in the evening so she didn’t barf it back up) and splitting her morning meal into two smaller portions given about 30 minutes apart, she stopped.

There are many helpful threads here discussing IBD and FLUTD so if you need resources there, they’re available!
 
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