Another Confusing Edition Of "fighting Or Playing"? Help?

[cheeseburger]

I'm back for another round. As a reminder, I am six weeks into a cat introduction.

The resident cat is Lando, a 13lb black 2 year old male. The new cat is Ahsoka, a 7.5 pound tabby six month old kitten. They are both fixed and we have done all of the formal introduction procedures. For the most part there is peace in the house but we still have a lot of what you see in the video.

The most confusing thing about it is that while it's always Lando jumping on the kitten, it's often the kitten that starts it by running up to him and pawing at him or rolling on her stomach almost like an invitation. About 60% of the time the fights produce no sounds, but sometimes the kitten will growl or run away and hide and hiss.

I'm concerned that it is actual fighting because often the cats are left with pieces of fur they have ripped out from the other's coats in their mouths.

So what's the consensus? Fighting or playing. And if it's fighting, what do we do at this point?


And just as a follow up note, I broke up this fight with a hiss because the kitten started to whimper. It's hard to hear in the video, so I wanted to clarify why I took that action.

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
Looks like normal play to me but you're right to keep an eye out for when things get too rough. When she gains more size and maturity things should even out

 

[ArtNJ]

"The most confusing thing about it is that while it's always Lando jumping on the kitten, it's often the kitten that starts it by running up to him and pawing at him or rolling on her stomach almost like an invitation."

Not "almost like an invitation" -- that is *exactly* what it is, an invitation, an attempt to initiate play. On the back, paws up, is the classic defensive posture, often assumed in play. Its perfectly normal for a smaller cat to initiate play, but then eventually have had enough, hiss and try and retreat. Its really no different from a little brother initiating play by nudging big brother, having fun for a bit, then crying for mom when its too much. As long as little brother comes back and does it again, all is well.

Fur being ripped out is a concerning sign. However, it can be associated with overly rough play and isn't always a sign of hostility. Here, while its less than ideal that the big cat is going overboard, the fact that little cat keeps coming back tells you that everything is still basically fine.

Normally I am against intervening, but since it is quite possible that big cat is going truly overboard at times, I think its fine to watch and be prepared to help separate them if little cat appears truly miserable. But you still generally need to give them their time and let them do their thing.

 

[jen]

It is plaaaaaaaay cats are rough. Don't break up their playtime by hissing (aka scolding) them. It is good if they hiss at each other or growl even to say hey that's enough. Let them be.

 

[ArtNJ]

Well, maybe we should drill down on "pieces of fur" being ripped off in the cats mouth, which is the only sign of a potential issue you mentioned. If cats are really going at it, you get clumps because fur is pulled out roots and all. It looks different from shed hair. If the cats are not at that level and just biting more lightly but maybe pulling a little, you can get some hair coming off, especially in spring once its warm.

If its clumps being ripped off, the play is unusually rough and really needs watching. If its just a little bit of hair and the weather is getting warmer where your at, that isn't necessarily a big thing.

 

[Purr-fect]

Greg and arnold also play fight. Greg is the smaller of the two, yet he is almost always the one who starts it. Even when arnold easily defeats greg, greg will reach out and give arnold a whack as he walks away.

There is often fur left on the floor after the games.

As long as they:
- wrestle and do not strike with claws extended
-do not growl with the same tone they use in a real fight
-no one cries in pain
-arnold fights fairly (he usually lies down and lets greg jump on him)

Then we dont interfere. It is part of their play time, exercise and pecking order status. They enjoy it.

 

[ArtNJ]

Sweet baby jesus, what is that, a bear? With maybe a little Tasmanian Devil thrown in. Very cute though!

 

[di and bob]

The older cat looks relaxed after he stopped, I think it is play. He is setting limits and teaching the kitten manners. He may be a little too rough, so breaking it up after the kitten cries 'uncle' is OK. The kitten wants to play but forgets how big and powerful the big brother is. I alwayds yell NO when mine get too rough and the one is wailing, they pull apart but always repeat the performance in a few hours. The kitten will get older and stronger and it will equal out. As long as the kitten doesn't hide, and constantly avoid Lando, it is play. If blood is drawn it is fighting, or if he hides all day. It doesn't hurt to break them up, but it really doesn't make any difference either, mine have been doing it for years.

 

[cheeseburger]

Thanks everybody. After all of your great feedback, the read that I have on the situation is that Ahsoka, the kitten, really wants to play. She is in that kitten stage where she desperately wants to improve her hunting skills but is still super uncoordinated and plays all day long. Whereas Lando is still a little annoyed by the intruder in his space and wants to make sure she knows where she stands. He's willing to play but he's also easy to tip into 'hostile' under the right circumstances.

Ahsoka does keep coming back for more, which sounds like it means the play is not too much for her, but I do think Lando gets pushed into an aggressive/fearful state after several rounds of this play fighting in a row. Last night after round 12ish, he got a puffed up bristly tail and arched back (very rare for him) and was clearly really upset so we separated them for a while.

It sounds like our current strategy of letting them play this out and only getting involved when it starts to get really rough is the right approach.

The hair that comes out...unfortunately it does come out in clumps. I haven't had the chance to inspect whether there are roots attached, but I will do so today - that's a great tip.

 

[Purr-fect]

Sweet baby jesus, what is that, a bear? With maybe a little Tasmanian Devil thrown in. Very cute though!

sometimes i wonder my self.........lol

 

[duncanmac]

Tufts of hair: When I was introducing Duncan and Barry, I would find an occasional tuft of hair on the carpet - usually just one or two smallish clumps. My boys have never gotten into a real fight, so I don't know how much worse it gets, but although I was a little alarmed at first, it didn't seem that bad.

cheeseburger : Your cats are doing fine. The little one keeps going back for more and the big one doesn't persist in chasing after its over, even though the little one can push the boundaries to far sometimes.

I had never had cats before Duncan and Barry and I was stunned at how rough they played. It is pretty much normal - you're just not used to it.

 

[maggie101]

Many times my catsPeaches will hiss because she is cornered. No way out. Or a cat tackled her somewhere she didnt like. It can happen by accident

 

[She's a witch]

I agree, they are playing. It actually reminds me of my cats, the bigger black sometimes gets too rough like Lando does, and my smaller female starts hissing and growling if she can't easily get away from him. I don't react. I don't think he's hurting her, but since she tends to be dominant, she doesn't like the constraints that this kind of play creates. After she gets away from him, she goes to her safe box on a cat tree, and obviously starts the play again in a little while.

The fact that Lando reacts to your hiss is a good news, as it means he knows and respects what it means - stop what you're doing. In my opinion, it would be a time for him to learn to respect when she hisses at him. So if it were me, I would stop hissing at him, in fact, I wouldn't interfere at all, but observe what happens next with my mouth sealed. She must find her way to get him to stop the play when she starts feeling uncomfortable about it. I'd let her learn to hiss and growl at him in a way that he respects it, the way he respects your hiss.

Can you post a picture of the fur next time you find it?

 

[Furballsmom]

what is that, a bear? With maybe a little Tasmanian Devil thrown in.

 

[Furballsmom]

Wait, didn't you post about this in another thread? Didn't kieka's video help you?

 

[pearl99]

To join the chorus, this looks exactly like Mooshoo (now a year old) stalking and playing with Waffles (almost 5 years old) in the first several months after getting Mooshoo at 12 weeks of age.
Waffles always "won" being bigger and stronger. If one got too upset and the other didn't stop I did intervene before it was actual fighting, but I rarely needed to.
Mooshoo loves to stalk and pounce, as do most all kittens. Now they are almost the same weight and size, and it's more even. Mooshoo usually is the one to run away still, and then it's all done. They do this all day long. It's really gotten to be funny now that they are the same size. They get the zoomies and are all around the house like this.

 

[cheeseburger]

New question: Lando has started exhibiting a puffy tail in nearly all of his play sessions with Ahsoka. This is something he's never done with just us alone. Most of the time he holds it straight out and is in hunting posture, eyes dilated and ears forward.

My understanding of the puffy tail is that it shows when a cat is feeling particularly fearful or aggressive. Basically he's in fight/flight. But it doesn't really seem like he's in fight/flight? And the kitten certainly doesn't seem to think so as she's happy to plop down directly in front of him with puffed tail and show her belly and ask him to play.

Is it possible that his puffed tail just means he's enjoying the game of stalking/chasing the kitten?

 

[She's a witch]

New question: Lando has started exhibiting a puffy tail in nearly all of his play sessions with Ahsoka. This is something he's never done with just us alone. Most of the time he holds it straight out and is in hunting posture, eyes dilated and ears forward.

My understanding of the puffy tail is that it shows when a cat is feeling particularly fearful or aggressive. Basically he's in fight/flight. But it doesn't really seem like he's in fight/flight? And the kitten certainly doesn't seem to think so as she's happy to plop down directly in front of him with puffed tail and show her belly and ask him to play.

Is it possible that his puffed tail just means he's enjoying the game of stalking/chasing the kitten?

Yes! Puffy tail indicates excitement as well!

 

[cheeseburger]

Yes! Puffy tail indicates excitement as well!

Phew - that is good news - thank you! I guess I've never seen Lando truly excited before. I'm glad that playing with the kitten is showing this new side of him and that he's not afraid of her.

 

[pearl99]

New question: Lando has started exhibiting a puffy tail in nearly all of his play sessions with Ahsoka. This is something he's never done with just us alone. Most of the time he holds it straight out and is in hunting posture, eyes dilated and ears forward.

My understanding of the puffy tail is that it shows when a cat is feeling particularly fearful or aggressive. Basically he's in fight/flight. But it doesn't really seem like he's in fight/flight? And the kitten certainly doesn't seem to think so as she's happy to plop down directly in front of him with puffed tail and show her belly and ask him to play.

Is it possible that his puffed tail just means he's enjoying the game of stalking/chasing the kitten?

Yes from me also. It can be excitement or surprise at something. Mooshoo has a puffy tail sometimes when playing with Waffles. She even has had a puffy tail when rassling with her toys if she's really into it. If I surprise her from behind she might have a puff till she sees it's me.