75% Brown Classic Tabby & White, 25% Brown Marble Bengal?

[nekochan]

Oh yeah I know what that is like with chronic health problems. I had to temporarily retire my DSH cats from showing because they have been having health issues due to allergies. I'm hoping Harley might be able to get back into it though, she is my ticked torbie and she did pretty well in the shows.
Here is a pic of Harley: http://www.chicagocanine.com/photos/kits/profharleys.jpg

If you are able to show him at some point, the judges at the shows should be able to help you figure out what pattern/type he should be called.

 

[maewkaew]

If you do get his health improved and his weight gradually down so that he's in good muscular body condition, you might try showing him as a Household Pet. But of course if he is not in great health, or has a chronic condition that is exacerbated by stress, then you shouldn't risk the stress of a show, especially since he would be new at it.
The most important thing is this handsome boy has a good home and is being well taken care of now.

One thing about showing him, IF that seems like a good idea down the road, is, if it is the kind of show that has both pedigreed cats and non-pedigreed cats, you could get some cat experts looking at him in real life and you might get a chance to ask about his interesting coat if they don't already talk about it on their own . (Also if it's a TICA show, the judges would be experienced at looking at lots of Bengals so you might ask their opinion on that. ) If you enter him in a show I would put the color & pattern as Brown Classic Tabby and White. When the judges see him in person , if they think it's really something else, they can change it

You are right - Ticked (non-patterned agouti) usually seems to overrule the mackerel or classic. It breaks up the tabby pattern that came from the separate gene for mackerel tabby or classic (blotched) tabby . With homozygous ticked , you get the least of the pattern remaining . With just one copy of the gene for ticked tabby, there are definitely still stripes on the tail and legs. maybe even some ghost pattern on the body? though that would be less common. so yes it but sometimes seems to not be complete.

Mackerel and classic/blotched ,are alleles at the same locus, mackerel dominant over classic & normally that is completely dominant, which should mean either/or, which is why i was saying it is odd for a cat to seem to have some of both! I have seen classic tabby cats that had a few wider vertical stripes on the shoulders or ribs, then the usual whorls etc. farther back on the sides. but your cat appears to have thin vertical stripes there. It may just be that I'm seeing it wrong.

Here is a link to download of a paper on tabby genetics http://research.hudsonalpha.org/Barsh/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php?id=16.

 

[shadyferret]

@Nekochan: Aren't allergies annoying? One of my cats appears allergic to kelp (she's on kelp-free trials now to determine the likelihood of that allergy), although that's obviously not a show stopper. That's a nice photo of Harley. =)

@maewkaew:

Unfortunately, his health problems are interfering with his weight loss and have been for a year, which isn't much shorter than how long I've had him. He's lost a whole whopping 1.5 pounds since the shelter. He has mild to moderate megacolon and shows signs IBS, colitis, proctitis, and rectal incontinence. Obviously he doesn't have all of the later since the odds are astronomical, but he's showing external symptoms/signs of all of them so the vets don't know what he actually has in addition to megacolon. I don't want an exploratory surgery for him so he's on new theraputic trials right now to see if whatever condition he has will disappear. His energy levels have increased, though. He seems to have gained some muscle strength and definition in some places. Regardless it's clearly not a time to try introducing him to any stress. I would love to show him because that means the vets & I think he's healthy He's pretty laid back so he would do okay with the stress once he's healthy.

Talking to some judges in real life would be best since the ghost lines would have better visibility. His legs are either not ticked or very faintly ticked. The photographs of the back seem mackerel since he's got that small straight line running along his spine and I can't find an image of a classic with a straight line running down the spine. I say "photographs of the back" because there's no photo of the fur from his neck through his shoulder blades. It diverges from the mackerel pattern and creates a mirrored wave pattern. Its pretty but it's also ghost so it's hard to photograph. Then it converges and turns back into the black line. It's hard to tell if he has vertical lines on his torso along with the classic pattern or just vertical wavy swirls because of his large, curved midsection. They are thin, like you said.

Thanks for the link. I've been wondering about tabby genetics, especially with another cat who seems to be a fairly diluted tabby considering, as far as I know, tabby is dominant.

 

[orientalslave]

When talking about cat coat colours and patterns, dilution means the black is blue (grey) instead - using the word dilution to mean the markings are faint is a bit confusing.

As well as the main genes controlling what the pattern is, there are lots of polygenes that affect just how the main ones are expressed which is why you can get stunning contrast and clarity of pattern in pedigrees (it's been selectively bred for) but rarely in moggies.

 

[northernglow]

Do you know anything about his parents, what color they were? He looks a bit like he could be a golden tabby..

 

[shadyferret]

@OrientalSlave: Ah, I always thought diluted referred to the strength of the genes presence.  Genes are never that simple, I suppose... this is why I went into non-biological sciences after my biological-based science classes. BTW, I misread "moggies" as "muggles."

@NorthernGlow: I'm don't know who his parents are. He's a stray found under an elderly lady's balcony who starting sneaking into her kitchen to steal food.

 

[maewkaew]

@ shadyferret, I'm sorry to hear about his health problems being so bad. I had a cat who had IBD and chronic pancreatitis ( and diabetes mellitus) so I can relate to some similar things. In my cat's case he was helped by a raw venison diet ( as well as medication and supplements) . I know it's not the same diagnosis, though. He was a striking, outgoing, confident cat and I regret that I didn't try showing him in Household Pets when he was younger, but once he started having chronic health issues I did not want to risk the stress. However i did take him along to a few shows as a companion when i was showing another cat, and he enjoyed spectators meeting him and saying how handsome he was.

@ Northern Glow -=- Golden Tabby ! Now THAT is an interesting possibility.

 

[shadyferret]

I hope your kitty is managing well! My cat was helped a lot with raw food as well. He used to not do anything and now he loves to start play fights. Currently he's on a few food trials to see what he likes, although the real purpose of the food trials is my other 2 seemingly-allergic-to-everything cats. The trials are proving that the issue is a common additive in both canned and commercial raw, but I digress. The next meat is venison. He needs to be on one food for the next 6 weeks and I've been mulling over rabbit or venison. He's on meds but they barely manage his condition, often not, so I took him to a second vet and we've got a new plan. This vet seems keen on digestive issues so who knows - in a year he could be fine and show-ready.

At least your cat had fun at shows as a companion Mojo is 7 years old, but I don't think that's too old for shows... not that I would have a clue anyhow. He keeps up with the 5 year old male plenty well when they play.

 

[maewkaew]

Oh no, 7 is not too old IF he gets in good health. I've seen cats in their teens being shown. A friend of mine has an 8 year old black and white DSH who was the top Household Pet in the region last year.

With my Louis having so many complicated problems it was different, and not just diabetic but diabetic with a history of ketoacidosis. Oh he also had hyperthyroidism . .... and cancer.
Sadly I finally had to let my amazing old ((((Louis)))) go last year when the cancer got the better of him. He made it to at least age 15 (I adopted him as an adult in 1999 & thought to be about 2 yrs old then )
I still miss him immensely. but I'm glad I was able to help him have almost 6 extra years from the time he started having these health problems, and he loved life so much.

Hopefully in your kitty's case it's just a matter of figuring out what is causing this and dealing with it. It might be the venison or rabbit will help a lot.
Rabbit is really closer to a cat's natural diet. I tried the venison because I had never fed that before and I had occasionally fed him rabbit. so the venison truly was a novel protein. and that made a huge difference in the inflammation.

Hey -- I know we are digressing wildly here. but while we're at it, what form do your other kitties' allergies take and what is the additive in canned and commercial raw that is bothering them? , one of my cats is having bumps that turn into scabs on his head and neck. Not fleas. not ringworm.

To get back to the "What does Mojo look like and why the heck does he look that way?" subject.... NG made a very interesting suggestion-- a look that is called Golden Tabby. genetically the base is still black. but they have wide bands of Look into a combination of the wide band gene and rufous polygenes

 

[shadyferret]

Last time I didn't find any "golden tabby" but I tried again and I noticed a search deviation for "golden tabby british shorthair." It's not a pedigree breed, but I did find some classic tabbies with fur that's a golden brown. But I guess it does exist on some level, based on your info on genes. Obviously he's not even close to a pedigree, so it stands to reason that the non-pedigree gold tabby could be a parent or grandparent.

Sorry to hear about Louis. He's lucky to have you because not many pets get an extra 6 years after they become sick.

**Digression**

I would go with rabbit except all three of my cats don't like the different rabbits I feed them

This weekend I'm going to grab some raw rabbit prepared for humans (more access available) to see if a raw meat that's not whole rabbit works for them. If they actually eat it and keep eating it, I'm going to order a lot of raw rabbit meat prepared for pets that is prepared the same. If not, then it will probably be venison because 2 of my 3 cats like venison, and I think the 3rd didn't eat it because she was allergic to an ingredient in the NV Instinct Raw Venison. She seems pretty keen on understanding what doesn't do well for her.

Regarding their allergies, my suspicions are roots and/or kelp based on two things: 1) they both appear allergic or intolerant to everything I feed them except Addiction Brushtail for one and Addiction Venison for both, 2) I fed them the meat they've have trouble with before - chicken - and there was no reaction. So it's an additive. They are not necessarily not allergic/intolerant of these Addiction foods because they both may have been exposed to the allergens but not long enough for it to build up in their system and trigger a reaction. Allergens don't trigger a reaction until it reaches the threshold of what the body can and can't handle. That's why Blue handled NV Instinct Raw Chicken fine for 2-3 weeks before throwing it up everywhere and everything subsequent of that. He could be allergic to Addiction Venison but whatever the ingredient is that he can't handle, it's just not as prevalent as in other commercially available high-quality canned or raw meats.

I suspect kelp is somewhat of an allergy for Poe based on the watery eyes she frequently has, but it would be a mild allergy. She is more likely allergic to roots because root allergies can have skin problems. She gets really itchy skin, lots of dandruff, and her fur is randomly turning white - an indicator that the skin below is having some sort of reaction. Not necessarily an allergy indicator, though. Her face does swell somewhat frequently, but I'm not sure what the cause is.

Blue is most likely intolerant of at least some roots because he throws up everything but canned Addiction Venison. I could compare roots and the weight of the root in the ingredient list, but since whatever it is can be found in just about everything it's doesn't serve much of a purpose. It's safer and easier to forgo commercial food and do my own with the very basics added and then go from there. He is allergic to something though because when he had NV Instinct Raw Beef, his face blew up and he was pouring tears from his face. Maybe he's allergic to beef but I'm not longer certain.

None of my cats have bumps that turn into scabs, but I found out that roots allergies often result in skin and ear problems by researching it after it was suggested. A number of things result in skin allergies, but it might be best to go to something like WebMD for humans and find what allergies cause skin reactions. I'm sure human allergies have more coverage and you can exclude anything from there that isn't applicable. I don't know if your cat is exposed to any of the above, but that's what problem my cats are having and my current theory. There's blood tests for allergies, but I've read that its not reliable.

 

[northernglow]

Last time I didn't find any "golden tabby" but I tried again and I noticed a search deviation for "golden tabby british shorthair." It's not a pedigree breed, but I did find some classic tabbies with fur that's a golden brown. But I guess it does exist on some level, based on your info on genes. Obviously he's not even close to a pedigree, so it stands to reason that the non-pedigree gold tabby could be a parent or grandparent.

British Shorthair is a pedigree breed. Golden is a colour found in various breeds, not only Brits, and can also be found in moggies (I knew one) so pedigree is not needed to be golden. As a British breeder I mainly focus on Brits, so my examples will be BSHs too.. Does this colour look like your cat's (the coat texture is obviously different but ignore that)? http://catza.net/fi/view/code/BRI_ny_22/039052/

The colour is a pain in the a** to photograph because the coat is standing away from the body and is not sleek and glossy (had a golden kitten in my last litter). Here's a close up with very warm (preferred) and a bit lighter golden tone on a golden shaded cat: http://www.sundust-cats.be/images/img0124.png

(Both of my examples are black goldens, the latter much paler than the OP's cat, but golden comes in different shades from brownish/greyish to almost red, the tips/bands of the hair is always some other colour, just like with silvers).

 

[shadyferret]

Really? I found so little info on the breed that I figured it was just a really common non-pedigree, like the Brown Classic Tabby & White. The Brown Classic Tabby & White is not a pedigree but it is really common, especially in Britain (if I recall correctly from Animal Planet).

The torso and leg markings shown in the first link looks similar to Mojo's. Obviously he's no where near the golden coloring, as evident in his photos, but in normal indoor lighting he has a dark gold look and in the sunlight there's a bright golden brown. The ticking in the second link looks like same pattern as his (ticking stops at the top of the hairs as opposed to further down towards the middle) and some of his coat actually does have that same undercoat coloring. Depending where on his body, it ranges for a medium-light gold undercoat to a dark peach.

The tabby markings on his head are somewhat similar for being the trade-mark tabby look, but there's a rosette-like pattern in the middle instead. The white on the golden tabby's face matches Mojo's but the white around his neck reaches up just enough to break the eyelines.

So yeah, based on that he probably has a grandparent that was at least 1/2 golden tabby. Thanks!

 

[orientalslave]

Colours in tabby coats in non-pedigree cats vary hugely from very cold to very warm - there are a lot of polygenes involved.

Given the rareity of a genuine Golden pedigree cats I suspect your cat doesn't have any pedigree blood at all (a safe guess since over 90% of cats don't!) but has a very unusual coat.  Without actually seeing him it's hard to say what it actually is.

 

[maewkaew]

Shadyferret, If you ever do take this cat to a show ( if his health improves), the judges may have quite a time trying to figure out his color/ pattern. I can see it now, 6 judges and a genetics instructor for good measure, all gathered around your handsome cat. **************************************************************************** Thank you for the addition to our digression. So maybe it is roots that is causing Chatri's problems with his skin breaking out?

 

[northernglow]

Really? I found so little info on the breed that I figured it was just a really common non-pedigree, like the Brown Classic Tabby & White. The Brown Classic Tabby & White is not a pedigree but it is really common, especially in Britain (if I recall correctly from Animal Planet).

So yeah, based on that he probably has a grandparent that was at least 1/2 golden tabby. Thanks!

British Shorthairs aren't rare and are somewhat popular (at least in Europe) so I'm surprised you didn't find much info, maybe it was just the golden colour that was giving you the trouble.

Brown classic tabby (with or without white) is not a breed, it's a coat pattern and colour found in most cat breeds and moggies.

A cat cannot be 1/2 golden tabby, he/she is golden 100% or not at all. Golden can be carried though as it is a recessive gene, so a golden kitten doesn't need to have golden parents. It's a bit complicated, but involves silver which is more common colour.

 

[orientalslave]

British Shorthairs aren't rare and are somewhat popular (at least in Europe) so I'm surprised you didn't find much info, maybe it was just the golden colour that was giving you the trouble.

Brown classic tabby (with or without white) is not a breed, it's a coat pattern and colour found in most cat breeds and moggies.

A cat cannot be 1/2 golden tabby, he/she is golden 100% or not at all. Golden can be carried though as it is a recessive gene, so a golden kitten doesn't need to have golden parents. It's a bit complicated, but involves silver which is more common colour.

And since it is recessive it needs to be inherited from both parents for the kitten to be Golden, which makes it more unlikely in my view.  Didn't think Silver was involved in Golden though.

 

[maewkaew]

But it's not an uncommon recessive. Golden is really a combination of a dominant gene and a very common recessive (more common than the dominant gene at the locus!) The dominant is Wideband (Wb). The recessive is i/i , i of course being the recessive to the Inhibitor gene aka Silver (I/_) which is certainly not as common as Agouti or Black or C (full Coloration).(In other words, I don't think silver IS literally involved, but maybe what NG meant is that goldens have the Wb gene that is known as combining with Silver to make the Chinchilla and Shaded Silver coats. so in pedigreed cats, goldens have most often come out of breeding programs working with silvers. )Plus there would be polygenes affecting the exact shade.

 

[orientalslave]

I've seen some non-pedigree Silver tabbies, but never a shaded or tipped, golden or otherwise.

 

[northernglow]

But it's not an uncommon recessive. Golden is really a combination of a dominant gene and a very common recessive (more common than the dominant gene at the locus!) The dominant is Wideband (Wb). The recessive is i/i , i of course being the recessive to the Inhibitor gene aka Silver (I/_) which is certainly not as common as Agouti or Black or C (full Coloration). (In other words, I don't think silver IS literally involved, but maybe what NG meant is that goldens have the Wb gene that is known as combining with Silver to make the Chinchilla and Shaded Silver coats. so in pedigreed cats, goldens have most often come out of breeding programs working with silvers. ) Plus there would be polygenes affecting the exact shade.

There seems to be 2 different types of golden, I'm still very confused about it. Siberians seem to have somehow different golden gene than the rest. I read about it more than a year ago, so can't remember what exactly was going on there.

What I meant about golden involving silver is that I haven't heard about goldens appearing in litters that are not silver (unless they're from golden parents of course). The colour started to pop up originally in silver litters. It also seems that for example 2 brown tabbies can't have golden kittens, but I'm not sure about that. I do however personally know of a golden moggie kitten who was a result of an accidental breed mix (colours silver shaded x brown tabby), the other breed involved doesn't have goldens, but then again that breed still accepts novices and backgrounds can be unknown..

 

[maewkaew]

Very interesting NG. On the genetic basis I mentioned, it would make sense 2 brown tabbies don't have gold. also would make sense 2 silvers CAN have gold. That's what I thought you meant... Since breeders working with silver have specifically ( even if they maybe at first did not give a name to it) bred for wide banding, and silver/ Inhibitor is dominant, it makes sense that some of them are carrying non-silver (i), and that they'd occasionally get kittens that turn out with the dominant Wb but with i/i . et voilà, golden. And it totally makes sense that you could get golden from silver shaded x brown tabby. But if Siberians have a whole different version... who knows? there may be some different mode of inheritance? Some of the golden Siberians are very cool looking.