Any Bengal Breeders/rescuers?

Animal Freak · Nov 20, 2018

Hey all. I'm doing a research essay for school about hybrid animals and if we should be breeding them. I'm covering both wild x wild hybrids such as ligers and wild x domestic hybrids such as Bengals. I've pretty much already made up my mind about the wild x wild hybrids, but there's a lot of mixed information on wild x domestic hybrids. It seems like every informational site/article I read says they shouldn't be pets and they have bad traits from the wild blood and the site will have a bunch of stories about people being unable to care for them, but every person who I've found talking about having a hybrid absolutely loves them and says they're the best cats ever.

Personally, I've been leaning towards they shouldn't be bred because there just hasn't really been enough good to justify the bad or the potential bad. However, finding information isn't the easiest and, while I've read most that at least Bengals are mostly later generations, it seems I can't find anything on those later generations. Everything is F5 or earlier. I don't like forming an opinion without all the information and I do believe compromise might be necessary. Hybrids already exist, so perhaps something can be figured out. Also, I want to be convinced, to be completely honest. Bengals are stunning cats and, the more I've looked into them, the more I've wanted one. :frustrated:

Anyway, to sum this up, I'm wondering if there is anyone who breeds or rescues Bengals on this site or if anyone knows of someone who'd be willing to talk to me(just through a pm would be fine). I want to hear from someone I can trust to tell me the truth and is familiar with the generations. I had wanted to visit someone to see for myself, but even if anyone would be willing to let me visit I only found two breeders near me(though I was surprised there was that many and more a bit further off) and neither site really impressed me. I want to know they're doing it right if I'm going to make a proper judgement.

Kieka · Nov 20, 2018

You would probably benefit from checking out the cats at https://bigcatrescue.org/catbio/?amp they are one of the places that take rejected hybrids and would probably love to answer questions for educational purposes. I'd say to focus more on Savannah's then Bengals because they are more of what people think of with hybrids; but there are several hybrids out there.

Bengals are the more domestic hybrids out there. F5 or later are considered domestic and no longer a hybrid; which is probably why you are having problems finding things later. Generally, they are more high maintenance, easily bored and high energy then other breeds. The main problem though in research is knowing if the person has a papered purebred or an assumed Bengal. The sheer volume of people who think they have a Bengal far outweighs the actual Bengals out there.

I really would look in to other domestic hybrids for a focal point if you really want to see the effect of hybridization. Don't talk to current owners, talk to rescues and past owners. They would be the ones who have seen the ugly side. I know some people can manage owning or living with wild cats or hybrids. They usually respect the wild side and acknowledge the challenges. But there are too many people who think they are just big cats which causes a huge problem.

Savannah Cat Rescue — Caring for the Savannah Cat Breed
WildCat Ridge Sanctuary - A New Beginning | Hybrids

Animal Freak · Nov 20, 2018

Kieka said:
You would probably benefit from checking out the cats at Our Cat Bios|Big Cat Rescue they are one of the places that take rejected hybrids and would probably love to answer questions for educational purposes. I'd say to focus more on Savannah's then Bengals because they are more of what people think of with hybrids; but there are several hybrids out there.

Bengals are the more domestic hybrids out there. F5 or later are considered domestic and no longer a hybrid; which is probably why you are having problems finding things later. Generally, they are more high maintenance, easily bored and high energy then other breeds. The main problem though in research is knowing if the person has a papered purebred or an assumed Bengal. The sheer volume of people who think they have a Bengal far outweighs the actual Bengals out there.

I really would look in to other domestic hybrids for a focal point if you really want to see the effect of hybridization. Don't talk to current owners, talk to rescues and past owners. They would be the ones who have seen the ugly side. I know some people can manage owning or living with wild cats or hybrids. They usually respect the wild side and acknowledge the challenges. But there are too many people who think they are just big cats which causes a huge problem.

Savannah Cat Rescue — Caring for the Savannah Cat Breed
WildCat Ridge Sanctuary - A New Beginning | Hybrids

Thanks for the links!

You have a point about focusing on other hybrids. I hadn't thought of it that way. I mentioned Bengals specifically because I know they have such a distinct coat and I wanted to ask about how the appearances might change through the generations, but it would be great to talk to those experienced in a few different domestic hybrids.

Another good point in knowing whether or not the cat in question is actually a purebred. I'll have to keep that in consideration. And, yes, there's definitely too many who don't know what they're getting into. It's part of why I wonder if it's right to be breeding them. I do think people need to be more educated and that goes for getting any breed of any animal.

Thank you very much for your input. You made some valid points that I'll have to keep in mind.

kittyluv387 · Nov 20, 2018

I want to mention savannah cats. They are much more interesting to me than Bengals. I read about their traits and they sound pretty cool. A graceful and stunning cat with spots with a dog-like personality. Bengals are more stumpy looking and have the rosetting.

jen · Nov 21, 2018

Animal Freak said:
Another good point in knowing whether or not the cat in question is actually a purebred.

That is so hard to determine because so many people find themselves with a gray cat and assume it is a Russian Blue, a black cat as a Bombay, or a fluffy tabby as a Maine Coon and unless these cats come from a breeder they are JUST mixes. I know that isn't the type of cat breeds you are looking at. I just thought I would mention it. Gives me a giant headache that people don't understand that almost NO ONE has a purebred cat lolol. There just aren't that many.

bengalcatman · Nov 21, 2018

A bit long winded here.... its a question that I have spent a lot of time researching and thinking about....

I would strongly encourage you to find and review current peer reviewed literature on hybrids/feline/behavior. Universities will have access to medical/veterinary databases like Pubmed and Embase that will offer real data on topics like this. A quick search of Pubmed found this link showing bengals to be no worse than other cats for inappropriate urination/marking Common Risk Factors for Urinary House Soiling (Periuria) in Cats and Its Differentiation: The Sensitivity and Specificity of Common Diagnostic Signs Here is another link to a study that shows Bengal aggression as higher than most, but not as high as Siamese and a few others: Behavior profiles of cat breeds - role of breed and gender; tips in raising kittens (Proceedings). Here is a link to a position statement by the American Association of Feline Practitioners 2017 Hybrid Cats Position Statement | American Association of Feline Practitioners which strongly opposes breeding hybrid cats for many well thought out reasons.

There are many more questions to ask regarding hybrids: it is far from a simple question. Just a few things that are not commonly discussed:
BFQ Bite Force Quotient: Literally the force of the bite. Could it be significantly higher in Hybrids?
Impact on the wild population: are breeders taking too many animals out of the wild and having an impact on breeding populations?
Both of these are covered in current literature, and there are many more interesting aspects to uncover.

There are also questions not covered in the literature, such as: does the availability of hybrids decrease the overall demand and (inappropriate) ownership of small wildcats? Do hybrids, with their highly social/interactive nature, provide better companions for people confined to their homes by chronic illness?

Big Cat Rescue is very vocal against hybids. Unfortunately, the website offers no research based information, just the sensationalized opinions of the founder. The kindest thing I can say is that perhaps as a rescue, they see only the worst case scenarios and this is what drives their overtly negative viewpoint.

Plowing through the studies to find relevant info can be time consuming - but will yield real data - not someone's biased opinion. It is a complex question without a simple answer.

I have done a great deal of research in the current literature on domestic hybrids, Bengals in particular. I have found no evidence that the breed is significantly more aggressive, or prone to urination problems than other breeds (F1 through F3 are not domestic, and are likely to be problematic for someone not prepared to provide them with adequate living arrangements.)

I am still uncertain if breeding hybrids is a good idea. Sleeping on my desk right next to me now is Makena, a large F4 male Bengal. He is a stunningly beautiful animal that demands a lot of care. He has to have walks/hikes on a near daily basis to keep his energy level and anxiety under control. He requires interaction, not just attention. This means he has to be played with, talked to and be involved in our daily lives. He can not be teased, and you can't use your hands to play with him. Having said all that, he has never bitten or scratched anyone. Despite being much larger, faster and stronger than our other cats, he plays gently with them and they are not afraid of him.

Makena

Makena is a rescue. He went through several homes before we got him. He sprayed, growled, showed us his teeth, yowled at night etc, etc for the first 6 months. Then, as we met his needs, he became the most intelligent, good natured cat we have ever owned. He is overtly protective of my wife and the other cats. And how many cats are there that you can take fishing?

And how many cats want to go out to plow snow?

The problem is: Makena requires these sorts of things to be content. If he doesn't get lots of interesting things to do, he will have behavioral issues.

We have another Bengal, Lilia, who is also a rescue. Lilia is many generations from wild, and is a sweet, timid housecat.

Lilia is a bit more talkative, a lot louder and more athletic than the average domestic. She can't be leash trained (too shy.) She is easy to care for.

What I struggle with is this... how many Makena type Bengals are out there who were purchased for their beauty? And how many of them have owners who don't understand their many needs and simply can't offer them enough stimulation? Until his needs were met, Makena was a handful. You can't have highly domesticated F6s, F7s etc without having F1s F2s and F3s, and the occasionally overly wild F4 like Makena. They can't be turned loose in the wild, they are not full wildcats. Many of them will be profoundly unhappy as house pets. Ethically, this really bothers me.

My wife and I dearly love having Makena around, but we intimately understand how miserable he was before we got him and figured out all that he needed.

Good luck on your paper!

Kieka · Nov 21, 2018

bengalcatman Wow..... :clap2:

You have some really good points. I tend to go worst case scenario because a lot of people just don't do their research on earlier generation hybrids. The difference between your two is a striking example of the differences you can see in different generations.

kittyluv387 · Nov 21, 2018

bengalcatman said:
A bit long winded here.... its a question that I have spent a lot of time researching and thinking about....

I would strongly encourage you to find and review current peer reviewed literature on hybrids/feline/behavior. Universities will have access to medical/veterinary databases like Pubmed and Embase that will offer real data on topics like this. A quick search of Pubmed found this link showing bengals to be no worse than other cats for inappropriate urination/marking Common Risk Factors for Urinary House Soiling (Periuria) in Cats and Its Differentiation: The Sensitivity and Specificity of Common Diagnostic Signs Here is another link to a study that shows Bengal aggression as higher than most, but not as high as Siamese and a few others: Behavior profiles of cat breeds - role of breed and gender; tips in raising kittens (Proceedings). Here is a link to a position statement by the American Association of Feline Practitioners 2017 Hybrid Cats Position Statement | American Association of Feline Practitioners which strongly opposes breeding hybrid cats for many well thought out reasons.

There are many more questions to ask regarding hybrids: it is far from a simple question. Just a few things that are not commonly discussed:
BFQ Bite Force Quotient: Literally the force of the bite. Could it be significantly higher in Hybrids?
Impact on the wild population: are breeders taking too many animals out of the wild and having an impact on breeding populations?
Both of these are covered in current literature, and there are many more interesting aspects to uncover.

There are also questions not covered in the literature, such as: does the availability of hybrids decrease the overall demand and (inappropriate) ownership of small wildcats? Do hybrids, with their highly social/interactive nature, provide better companions for people confined to their homes by chronic illness?

Big Cat Rescue is very vocal against hybids. Unfortunately, the website offers no research based information, just the sensationalized opinions of the founder. The kindest thing I can say is that perhaps as a rescue, they see only the worst case scenarios and this is what drives their overtly negative viewpoint.

Plowing through the studies to find relevant info can be time consuming - but will yield real data - not someone's biased opinion. It is a complex question without a simple answer.

I have done a great deal of research in the current literature on domestic hybrids, Bengals in particular. I have found no evidence that the breed is significantly more aggressive, or prone to urination problems than other breeds (F1 through F3 are not domestic, and are likely to be problematic for someone not prepared to provide them with adequate living arrangements.)

I am still uncertain if breeding hybrids is a good idea. Sleeping on my desk right next to me now is Makena, a large F4 male Bengal. He is a stunningly beautiful animal that demands a lot of care. He has to have walks/hikes on a near daily basis to keep his energy level and anxiety under control. He requires interaction, not just attention. This means he has to be played with, talked to and be involved in our daily lives. He can not be teased, and you can't use your hands to play with him. Having said all that, he has never bitten or scratched anyone. Despite being much larger, faster and stronger than our other cats, he plays gently with them and they are not afraid of him.

Makena

Makena is a rescue. He went through several homes before we got him. He sprayed, growled, showed us his teeth, yowled at night etc, etc for the first 6 months. Then, as we met his needs, he became the most intelligent, good natured cat we have ever owned. He is overtly protective of my wife and the other cats. And how many cats are there that you can take fishing?

And how many cats want to go out to plow snow?

The problem is: Makena requires these sorts of things to be content. If he doesn't get lots of interesting things to do, he will have behavioral issues.

We have another Bengal, Lilia, who is also a rescue. Lilia is many generations from wild, and is a sweet, timid housecat.

Lilia is a bit more talkative, a lot louder and more athletic than the average domestic. She can't be leash trained (too shy.) She is easy to care for.

What I struggle with is this... how many Makena type Bengals are out there who were purchased for their beauty? And how many of them have owners who don't understand their many needs and simply can't offer them enough stimulation? Until his needs were met, Makena was a handful. You can't have highly domesticated F6s, F7s etc without having F1s F2s and F3s, and the occasionally overly wild F4 like Makena. They can't be turned loose in the wild, they are not full wildcats. Many of them will be profoundly unhappy as house pets. Ethically, this really bothers me.

My wife and I dearly love having Makena around, but we intimately understand how miserable he was before we got him and figured out all that he needed.

Good luck on your paper!

Wow what a journey with Makena. Do you happen to have a blog for him or anything?

Animal Freak · Nov 21, 2018

kittyluv387 said:
I want to mention savannah cats. They are much more interesting to me than Bengals. I read about their traits and they sound pretty cool. A graceful and stunning cat with spots with a dog-like personality. Bengals are more stumpy looking and have the rosetting.

Well, Savannahs are amazing cats and they will, of course, be including in my essay. Personally, I prefer Bengals, but both are important aspects in this topic.

jen said:
That is so hard to determine because so many people find themselves with a gray cat and assume it is a Russian Blue, a black cat as a Bombay, or a fluffy tabby as a Maine Coon and unless these cats come from a breeder they are JUST mixes. I know that isn't the type of cat breeds you are looking at. I just thought I would mention it. Gives me a giant headache that people don't understand that almost NO ONE has a purebred cat lolol. There just aren't that many.

This is very true. People often want to assign breeds to cats that have none. Though it's not entirely their fault. A lot of people are used to considering dog breeds which have been around for much longer than cat breeds. Honestly, cat "breeds" can be quite confusing. The "mixes" aren't even so much mixes as simply nothing. No breed whatsoever. Unless, of course, you breed two purebreds. I have two purebreds myself and they look nothing like the breed, so that should say something about how much cat appearances can vary. If a purebred can look like a different breed, a cat with no breed surely can look like a certain breed.

Animal Freak · Nov 21, 2018

bengalcatman said:
A bit long winded here.... its a question that I have spent a lot of time researching and thinking about....

I would strongly encourage you to find and review current peer reviewed literature on hybrids/feline/behavior. Universities will have access to medical/veterinary databases like Pubmed and Embase that will offer real data on topics like this. A quick search of Pubmed found this link showing bengals to be no worse than other cats for inappropriate urination/marking Common Risk Factors for Urinary House Soiling (Periuria) in Cats and Its Differentiation: The Sensitivity and Specificity of Common Diagnostic Signs Here is another link to a study that shows Bengal aggression as higher than most, but not as high as Siamese and a few others: Behavior profiles of cat breeds - role of breed and gender; tips in raising kittens (Proceedings). Here is a link to a position statement by the American Association of Feline Practitioners 2017 Hybrid Cats Position Statement | American Association of Feline Practitioners which strongly opposes breeding hybrid cats for many well thought out reasons.

There are many more questions to ask regarding hybrids: it is far from a simple question. Just a few things that are not commonly discussed:
BFQ Bite Force Quotient: Literally the force of the bite. Could it be significantly higher in Hybrids?
Impact on the wild population: are breeders taking too many animals out of the wild and having an impact on breeding populations?
Both of these are covered in current literature, and there are many more interesting aspects to uncover.

There are also questions not covered in the literature, such as: does the availability of hybrids decrease the overall demand and (inappropriate) ownership of small wildcats? Do hybrids, with their highly social/interactive nature, provide better companions for people confined to their homes by chronic illness?

Big Cat Rescue is very vocal against hybids. Unfortunately, the website offers no research based information, just the sensationalized opinions of the founder. The kindest thing I can say is that perhaps as a rescue, they see only the worst case scenarios and this is what drives their overtly negative viewpoint.

Plowing through the studies to find relevant info can be time consuming - but will yield real data - not someone's biased opinion. It is a complex question without a simple answer.

I have done a great deal of research in the current literature on domestic hybrids, Bengals in particular. I have found no evidence that the breed is significantly more aggressive, or prone to urination problems than other breeds (F1 through F3 are not domestic, and are likely to be problematic for someone not prepared to provide them with adequate living arrangements.)

I am still uncertain if breeding hybrids is a good idea. Sleeping on my desk right next to me now is Makena, a large F4 male Bengal. He is a stunningly beautiful animal that demands a lot of care. He has to have walks/hikes on a near daily basis to keep his energy level and anxiety under control. He requires interaction, not just attention. This means he has to be played with, talked to and be involved in our daily lives. He can not be teased, and you can't use your hands to play with him. Having said all that, he has never bitten or scratched anyone. Despite being much larger, faster and stronger than our other cats, he plays gently with them and they are not afraid of him.

Makena

Makena is a rescue. He went through several homes before we got him. He sprayed, growled, showed us his teeth, yowled at night etc, etc for the first 6 months. Then, as we met his needs, he became the most intelligent, good natured cat we have ever owned. He is overtly protective of my wife and the other cats. And how many cats are there that you can take fishing?

And how many cats want to go out to plow snow?

The problem is: Makena requires these sorts of things to be content. If he doesn't get lots of interesting things to do, he will have behavioral issues.

We have another Bengal, Lilia, who is also a rescue. Lilia is many generations from wild, and is a sweet, timid housecat.

Lilia is a bit more talkative, a lot louder and more athletic than the average domestic. She can't be leash trained (too shy.) She is easy to care for.

What I struggle with is this... how many Makena type Bengals are out there who were purchased for their beauty? And how many of them have owners who don't understand their many needs and simply can't offer them enough stimulation? Until his needs were met, Makena was a handful. You can't have highly domesticated F6s, F7s etc without having F1s F2s and F3s, and the occasionally overly wild F4 like Makena. They can't be turned loose in the wild, they are not full wildcats. Many of them will be profoundly unhappy as house pets. Ethically, this really bothers me.

My wife and I dearly love having Makena around, but we intimately understand how miserable he was before we got him and figured out all that he needed.

Good luck on your paper!

Thank you very much! No worries about the length. I'm often quite long-winded myself and I found your post very insightful.

I will most certainly look at those links. Though, to be quite honest, I don't have much time to spend researching anymore. I should actually be at least close to done with that aspect of my essay, but I keep finding more things to research. I think those will be very useful though and I'll have to make time. I had gone through a college's database for articles on hybrids, but there really wasn't much. I'm happy to have more sources.

It is very far from simple. Those are some interesting points to bring up and things I had not thought of.

Perhaps the fact that Makena was able to get past his issues means that the real problem with hybrids is a misunderstanding about what exactly their needs are? Any cat will have behavioral problems if their needs aren't being met, so could it be possible that these issues are caused by that and, instead of attempting to fix that, people are blaming the wild blood? It could certainly explain while so many are surrendered for aggression and urination problems while so many others are able to live just fine in as a household pet.

You've brought up some of the issues that concern me too. Not every hybrid will be happy living in a house. Is it justifiable to breed those sort of hybrids in order to get the ones that will be happy? Or perhaps there's some line that can be drawn? I know they say F1-3 aren't domestics and maybe that's where the line is or maybe it's in the ever later generations. And is it even fair for all the F1-3's there are and probably will be? I, personally, don't have the experience or the knowledge to say.

I don't believe we should have started this. Hybrids shouldn't have been bred to begin with. However, I believe the same can be said for dogs and cats. The animals we have now are content as pets, but I doubt those who started off as wild animals felt the same. But I also believe that they're here and nothing can be done about that. We can't reverse what's been done, so instead we should give them the best lives we can. In that sense, the same logic could be applied to hybrids, Bengals in particular. They're already here. Can we do anything beyond rounding them up and murdering them to get rid of them? Probably not. I do believe we should stop breeding early generations, whether that's only the first three generations or not, and let those that exist live out their lives. If the hybrids can exist with the later generations only then perhaps that's okay. If not, then they just weren't meant to exist.

Thank you very much for your time and information. Both of your cats are gorgeous as are the pictures of them and what you've done for them in wonderful. Honestly, you've made me want a Bengal even more, so thanks a lot for that.

bengalcatman · Nov 21, 2018

Kieka said:
bengalcatman ...... I tend to go worst case scenario because a lot of people just don't do their research on earlier generation hybrids....

I do the "worst case scenario" thing too :lol:

Even when people do read up on early generation, I suspect its difficult to fully believe just how difficult and demanding a cute little 15-20 pound cat can be!

kittyluv387 said:
Wow what a journey with Makena. Do you happen to have a blog for him or anything?

No blog on Makena - but there is a thread about a kitten Makena found while we were headed out to hike. The thread eventually winds up being about all three of our cats and goes into a lot of detail on Makena and his relationship with "his" new kitten: Abandoned Kitten

Back in 2012, after Makena had (finally!) settled in, I wrote a short story from Makena's point of view about his journey that can be found here

bengalcatman · Nov 22, 2018

".......I keep finding more things to research."

It is a topic that becomes more diffuse as you look into it.

"... I had gone through a college's database for articles on hybrids, but there really wasn't much"

There is actually a huge amount of research data on hybrids, but it is very time consuming to tease out. Much of it is oblique references: I found many published papers that included data on hybrids, but did not reference "hybrid" in the title. Worse, many times the term "Bengal" or "hybrid" is only used in the data tables - which may not show up in term searches. I have a research background so I get through it a bit faster. But as you said, at some point you gotta quit reading and start writing

"Perhaps the fact that Makena was able to get past his issues means that the real problem with hybrids is a misunderstanding about what exactly their needs are? Any cat will have behavioral problems if their needs aren't being met, so could it be possible that these issues are caused by that and, instead of attempting to fix that, people are blaming the wild blood?"

I wonder about that too. How many are purchased by people for their beauty with no regard for the cats needs? I think in Makena's case, it would be easy to underestimate the sheer volume of time it takes to meet his needs. At the same time I wonder if his needs had been met right from the start if he wouldn't have been a bit calmer and easier to care for later in life.

"It could certainly explain while so many are surrendered for aggression and urination problems while so many others are able to live just fine in as a household pet."

That is the popular internet story, but studies found hybrids to be no more likely to be surrendered for aggression and urination than other breeds. I recall that Marilyn Krieger, a behavior expert, authored one study that found this (I think it was published at Tufts University) Might be a perception issue rather than an actual problem?

"Not every hybrid will be happy living in a house. Is it justifiable to breed those sort of hybrids in order to get the ones that will be happy? Or perhaps there's some line that can be drawn? I know they say F1-3 aren't domestics and maybe that's where the line is or maybe it's in the ever later generations. And is it even fair for all the F1-3's there are and probably will be? I, personally, don't have the experience or the knowledge to say."

This is what bothers me too.

"I don't believe we should have started this. Hybrids shouldn't have been bred to begin with."

Again, more diffuse than what it first appears: early hybrids were created in an effort to understand FIV and FIV resistance in wild cats (in order to protect them.) The research hybrids were adopted by families after the study, and people loved them...

"However, I believe the same can be said for dogs and cats. The animals we have now are content as pets, but I doubt those who started off as wild animals felt the same. But I also believe that they're here and nothing can be done about that. We can't reverse what's been done, so instead we should give them the best lives we can. In that sense, the same logic could be applied to hybrids, Bengals in particular. They're already here. Can we do anything beyond rounding them up and murdering them to get rid of them? Probably not. I do believe we should stop breeding early generations, whether that's only the first three generations or not, and let those that exist live out their lives. If the hybrids can exist with the later generations only then perhaps that's okay. If not, then they just weren't meant to exist."

I would like more information on the lives of the EGs (early generations F1-F3) before deciding. I am still on the fence

Great topic and good points! Thank you!

Animal Freak · Nov 22, 2018

bengalcatman said:
There is actually a huge amount of research data on hybrids, but it is very time consuming to tease out. Much of it is oblique references: I found many published papers that included data on hybrids, but did not reference "hybrid" in the title. Worse, many times the term "Bengal" or "hybrid" is only used in the data tables - which may not show up in term searches. I have a research background so I get through it a bit faster. But as you said, at some point you gotta quit reading and start writing

Maybe it was just that database. It had a lot about human hybrids which is not what I'm looking into. That is interesting that they may not even use the term "hybrid" in a paper about hybrids though. That makes things harder. I do, indeed, need to get to writing, but I intend on starting with wild x wild hybrids and working to domestic hybrids, so I still have a little time to get some more research done.

bengalcatman said:
I wonder about that too. How many are purchased by people for their beauty with no regard for the cats needs? I think in Makena's case, it would be easy to underestimate the sheer volume of time it takes to meet his needs. At the same time I wonder if his needs had been met right from the start if he wouldn't have been a bit calmer and easier to care for later in life.

It doesn't exactly make it fair for us to breed and sell these cats, but perhaps education and a proper understanding of their care could help limit the amount that go to the wrong homes. But breeders would still have to be willing to make sure the owners have that knowledge. And, in the end, I don't think it can work at all unless the breeders are willing to help it work. They're the ones raising these animals, so they're the ones who know them.

bengalcatman said:
That is the popular internet story, but studies found hybrids to be no more likely to be surrendered for aggression and urination than other breeds. I recall that Marilyn Krieger, a behavior expert, authored one study that found this (I think it was published at Tufts University) Might be a perception issue rather than an actual problem?

Perhaps both? Due to the controversy, people are probably more likely to see the negatives of having hybrids, so if a few hybrids have issues then it'll be made into a bigger deal than it actually is. And those few who have issues could have them because their needs aren't being met.

bengalcatman said:
Again, more diffuse than what it first appears: early hybrids were created in an effort to understand FIV and FIV resistance in wild cats (in order to protect them.) The research hybrids were adopted by families after the study, and people loved them...

True. I did read a little about that. However, it seems weird to create half-wild cats to study something in wild cats. Wouldn't you need entirely wild cats? Of course, I don't know anything about it. I'm not sure if we should have created hybrids even for that reason though. It is much more than a black and white matter. There's no easy answer.

bengalcatman said:
I would like more information on the lives of the EGs (early generations F1-F3) before deciding. I am still on the fence

I certainly still am too, but I need to start forming some sort of opinion. There's no saying it can't change after I write my essay. I don't think the early generations should be sold to just anyone though.

You've brought up a lot of things to think about though.

kittyluv387 · Nov 22, 2018

I used to be obsessed about getting a F1 savannah with a high serval %. Years later, after having regular domestic cats I realize I shouldn't be getting a F1 or F2 savannah cat at all. It would be a disaster at this time in my life.

bengalcatman said:
I do the "worst case scenario" thing too Even when people do read up on early generation, I suspect its difficult to fully believe just how difficult and demanding a cute little 15-20 pound cat can be!

No blog on Makena - but there is a thread about a kitten Makena found while we were headed out to hike. The thread eventually winds up being about all three of our cats and goes into a lot of detail on Makena and his relationship with "his" new kitten: Abandoned Kitten

Back in 2012, after Makena had (finally!) settled in, I wrote a short story from Makena's point of view about his journey that can be found here

I went through both of your links. So fascinating! Poor Makena got bounced around. His previous owner, the girl, did she just have a demanding job? If Makena loved her she must have been kind while she was around. So glad Makena has you and your wife now.

bengalcatman · Nov 23, 2018

Animal Freak said:
Maybe it was just that database. It had a lot about human hybrids which is not what I'm looking into. That is interesting that they may not even use the term "hybrid" in a paper about hybrids though. That makes things harder. I do, indeed, need to get to writing, but I intend on starting with wild x wild hybrids and working to domestic hybrids, so I still have a little time to get some more research done.

On topics like this the info you require may not be directly addressed by a specific study: it is often oblique/incidental/supportive in another study. This is to say you may not find a study on hybrid aggression, but you will probably find many on feline aggression/inappropriate behavior/biting/scratching/etc...and then find that "Bengal" or "wild crossbreed" or "domestic partial wild" or "Savannah" or some other term is one of the categories they list in a data table. Sometimes you can find a "review of the literature" type study on a similar topic (reasons felines are surrendered/euthanized/medicated/owners seek behaviorist help/etc) and upon review of the references cited you may find a small relatively unknown study that applies, or find a search term that works better for finding the studies you need. As you dig, you will find clues, terms, names and facilities that are better aligned with your data needs. For instance: you might find the name of a medication that veterinarians prescribe for a specific behavioral problem, then search how often or which breeds it is most prescribed to. You can eat up a LOT of time doing this.

When I was seeking a good grade, I dug just far enough to impress the teacher and offer plausible support for my thesis: there was seldom enough time to be as thorough and nuanced as we are talking about here. I learned to pick topics that I could care less about, it was easier to be objective on what/how much data to pursue. Now that I am free of deadlines, I can dig as deep as I like.

Animal Freak said:
Perhaps both? Due to the controversy, people are probably more likely to see the negatives of having hybrids, so if a few hybrids have issues then it'll be made into a bigger deal than it actually is. And those few who have issues could have them because their needs aren't being met.

This seems likely, an internet bias can be created by someone with a large audience. And studies do suggest that cats who don't get much stimulation are more prone to behavioral issues. Note too that behavioral issues in highly active and intelligent breeds could be more problematic than in more sedate breeds.

Animal Freak said:
...but I need to start forming some sort of opinion. There's no saying it can't change after I write my essay. I don't think the early generations should be sold to just anyone though.

An opinion does not necessarily have to be "for or against." This is especially true on emerging topics with many facets and few direct studies.

It would be perfectly supportable to have the opinion that we need more studies to see:
Percentage of EG (early generation F1-F3s) which are successfully homed, euthanized etc. And/or: impact on wild populations from taking specimens to breed.

Another valid opinion could be that more education is required before allowing people to own certain breeds or EG hybrids.

Everyone reading this is betting you are going to get an A on this one!

bengalcatman · Nov 23, 2018

kittyluv387 said:
I used to be obsessed about getting a F1 savannah with a high serval %. Years later, after having regular domestic cats I realize I shouldn't be getting a F1 or F2 savannah cat at all. It would be a disaster at this time in my life.

I went through both of your links. So fascinating! Poor Makena got bounced around. His previous owner, the girl, did she just have a demanding job? If Makena loved her she must have been kind while she was around. So glad Makena has you and your wife now.

After owning Makena, my wife and I have days where we would LOVE to own an F1. Then there are the days when we wish only for cats like our June Bug or Lilia. Right now Makena is bugging me to take him out (its 19 degrees and I am tired) June Bug and Lilia are contently napping by the woodstove. BUT, last week I was struggling with some work related issues and Makena insisted that we go for a hike, it was the best afternoon of the week!

Makena's previous owner really did care for him and did her best to make him happy. But you are right, she had a very demanding job and was unable to spend as much time with him as he required. She would have been fine with a regular cat.

Figuring out Makena's needs and how to meet them was stressful and difficult. But we have been rewarded many times over in this journey.

After all we have been through together, moments like this are priceless

And yes, I am taking Makena out this afternoon. He won't last long: his Asian Leopard ancestors passed along to him their thin pelts. Even with his heavy jacket, he will be shivering in 15 - 20 minutes and heading back to the house. Later, Makena will spend his excess energy chasing and being chased by June Bug, probably while my wife and I are trying to have a quiet dinner :lol:

goingpostal · Nov 23, 2018

I think a lot of the problem is that while a lot of people love cats, they think of them as an easy, low maintenance pet you can throw food down once a day and ignore unless you want to interact with it. Most housecats I see are obese sedentary loaves. Most people don't want the work of a dog in a cat. I have a second gen Bengal, that was bought to be a breeder but rehomed. She was owned by a lady who had Bengals, but SBT ones more removed from wild blood.

For me, she's great, but I'm also used to a variety of pets who require a lot of attention and effort, I like feisty troublemakers. She is attached to me like no cat I've interacted with and if I worked a lot or didn't devote time to her, she'd be so unhappy. I don't recommend most of my animals for your average owner. Before I got my Bengal, everyone thought my Highlander was insane and to me she's about your perfect housecat as she is very friendly with strangers and better with my dogs.

kittyluv387 · Nov 23, 2018

goingpostal said:
I think a lot of the problem is that while a lot of people love cats, they think of them as an easy, low maintenance pet you can throw food down once a day and ignore unless you want to interact with it. Most housecats I see are obese sedentary loaves. Most people don't want the work of a dog in a cat. I have a second gen Bengal, that was bought to be a breeder but rehomed. She was owned by a lady who had Bengals, but SBT ones more removed from wild blood.

For me, she's great, but I'm also used to a variety of pets who require a lot of attention and effort, I like feisty troublemakers. She is attached to me like no cat I've interacted with and if I worked a lot or didn't devote time to her, she'd be so unhappy. I don't recommend most of my animals for your average owner. Before I got my Bengal, everyone thought my Highlander was insane and to me she's about your perfect housecat as she is very friendly with strangers and better with my dogs.

Even regular cats aren't that easy and low maintenance. I always disagree with people when they say that. Cats require medical care and attention. It is inevitable. My cats also really love our attention. With 3 cats and only 2 people in the household someone gets left out sometimes.

Everyome demands attention. My boy has a special meow reserved for cuddles. And of course, they have special dietary needs. They can't eat things like "easy kibble." Haven't had the stuff in my home for years.

Animal Freak · Nov 23, 2018

goingpostal said:
I think a lot of the problem is that while a lot of people love cats, they think of them as an easy, low maintenance pet you can throw food down once a day and ignore unless you want to interact with it. Most housecats I see are obese sedentary loaves. Most people don't want the work of a dog in a cat. I have a second gen Bengal, that was bought to be a breeder but rehomed. She was owned by a lady who had Bengals, but SBT ones more removed from wild blood.

For me, she's great, but I'm also used to a variety of pets who require a lot of attention and effort, I like feisty troublemakers. She is attached to me like no cat I've interacted with and if I worked a lot or didn't devote time to her, she'd be so unhappy. I don't recommend most of my animals for your average owner. Before I got my Bengal, everyone thought my Highlander was insane and to me she's about your perfect housecat as she is very friendly with strangers and better with my dogs.

I think that's very true. Cats, not even just hybrids, are thought of as low maintenance, but they're really not. Some are more low maintenance than a dog, but many can be just as much or even more. It depends on the dog too. I always think it's absurd how people let their cats get so overweight and make jokes about it. Admittedly, one of my own cats is overweight, but she's not obese. And I've been trying to get her weight down. It just doesn't want to budge. On the other hand, one of the others is slightly underweight and won't gain.

I'll admit I'm not used to extremely high maintenance animals, but I certainly wouldn't rush into getting any animal. I want to know I have the time, the patience, the space, and the money to give an animal everything it needs. So a Bengal won't be in my household for a long time yet, if I ever get one.

Animal Freak · Nov 23, 2018

bengalcatman said:
On topics like this the info you require may not be directly addressed by a specific study: it is often oblique/incidental/supportive in another study. This is to say you may not find a study on hybrid aggression, but you will probably find many on feline aggression/inappropriate behavior/biting/scratching/etc...and then find that "Bengal" or "wild crossbreed" or "domestic partial wild" or "Savannah" or some other term is one of the categories they list in a data table. Sometimes you can find a "review of the literature" type study on a similar topic (reasons felines are surrendered/euthanized/medicated/owners seek behaviorist help/etc) and upon review of the references cited you may find a small relatively unknown study that applies, or find a search term that works better for finding the studies you need. As you dig, you will find clues, terms, names and facilities that are better aligned with your data needs. For instance: you might find the name of a medication that veterinarians prescribe for a specific behavioral problem, then search how often or which breeds it is most prescribed to. You can eat up a LOT of time doing this.

When I was seeking a good grade, I dug just far enough to impress the teacher and offer plausible support for my thesis: there was seldom enough time to be as thorough and nuanced as we are talking about here. I learned to pick topics that I could care less about, it was easier to be objective on what/how much data to pursue. Now that I am free of deadlines, I can dig as deep as I like.

That definitely makes things tricky. Maybe if I find some spare time I'll do some further research, but no time for going through everything right now. I am finding the topic rather interesting though. It's difficult finding evidence that it shouldn't be done when you want to support it yourself. Bengals are such beautiful creatures and the more I've read about them, the more I've wanted one. But, of course, their health and happiness come first.

There really isn't enough time. My topic is probably a bit too broad, but I was afraid of not having enough with just domestic hybrids, so I included wild captive hybrids as well, but then of course I have to cover natural hybrids in the wild and why we shouldn't do anything about that, but it's still wrong to do it ourselves... My teacher told us to pick a topic we were interested in so that we wouldn't be bored with it, but to make it one that we don't know a lot about.

bengalcatman said:
This seems likely, an internet bias can be created by someone with a large audience. And studies do suggest that cats who don't get much stimulation are more prone to behavioral issues. Note too that behavioral issues in highly active and intelligent breeds could be more problematic than in more sedate breeds.

Yeah, that seems like a good explanation for why hybrids have such a bad reputation even while many of the owners love their cats. Rescues probably add on to the bad reputation because they do see mostly that bad side of things, so they spread that information even further.

bengalcatman said:
An opinion does not necessarily have to be "for or against." This is especially true on emerging topics with many facets and few direct studies.

It would be perfectly supportable to have the opinion that we need more studies to see:
Percentage of EG (early generation F1-F3s) which are successfully homed, euthanized etc. And/or: impact on wild populations from taking specimens to breed.

Another valid opinion could be that more education is required before allowing people to own certain breeds or EG hybrids.

This is true and my opinion probably won't be completely one side or the other no matter what. I do think we need more research before making a proper and official decision on the matter, but I'm trying to form something of an opinion based on what I've found as well. More education would be a must. The same could probably be said for all breeds and species though.

bengalcatman said:
Everyone reading this is betting you are going to get an A on this one!

Thanks! I appreciate it. Writing is usually a strong point of mine, but this teacher expects a lot more from us than past teachers.

Any Bengal Breeders/rescuers?

TCS Member

Thread starter

Snowshoe Servant

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Snowshoe Servant

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

Thread starter