What breed does Frankie most resemble?

Chippy12964

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I got my kitty Frankie about a month ago and he is around 10 months old, I adopted him from a shelter so he came with no information. I am very curious as to what breed he could possibly be. I personally found he resembles the chocolate York or Chantilly (yes I know they’re super rare). I don’t really have any good quality pictures of him but I can add more if needed.
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Furballsmom

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StefanZ

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If you (or I) think Frankie resembles some rare breed, so you think so.

But what he is, is surely a domestic. As is the very most cats are. :)


Already the medieval Willem Ockham declared in his Razor: If there is several possible explanations, the correct explanation is almost always the simplest explanation which covers the problem. Rare, complicated explanations are seldom true for the problem at hand.
 

lutece

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Frankie is very handsome! I would describe him as a black domestic longhair. His brownish undercoat doesn't indicate that he is chocolate in color like those breeds you mentioned... it's normal for black cats, especially longhaired black cats, to have a somewhat lighter, brownish or grayish undercoat.
 

Meowmee

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I would guess maybe some forest cat or a bit of bombay but he will be called a dlh. Keep in mind a lot of breeds that are called pure breeds now actually originated out of cats that were naturally living in those areas, like forest cats, they were domestic cats at the time until somebody decided to breed them. Rag dolls for instance were first bred from a domestic longhair cat and Siamese and Berman cats with points. He is gorgeous anyway 😻 I looked at those breeds and in in terms of resemblance he looks more like the chocolate york to me, he looks very happy.
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jefferd18

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I would guess maybe some forest cat or a bit of bombay but he will be called a dlh. Keep in mind a lot of breeds that are called pure breeds now actually originated out of cats that were naturally living in those areas, like forest cats, they were domestic cats at the time until somebody decided to breed them. Rag dolls for instance were first bred from a domestic longhair cat and Siamese and Berman cats with points. He is gorgeous anyway 😻 I looked at those breeds and in in terms of resemblance he looks more like the chocolate york to me, he looks very happy. View attachment 333842View attachment 333843

Wow, you nailed it, he does look like a CY.
 

JayRadoff

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He is a stray, right? If so, he isn't any breed of cat, sorry to say.
 

lutece

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I looked at those breeds and in in terms of resemblance he looks more like the chocolate york to me, he looks very happy.
Meowmee Meowmee the cat in your pictures (of the brownish black cat outdoors) is not chocolate in color. They are pictures of a black cat with some discoloration to its coat. Most pictures on the web that are labeled as "York Chocolate" are not chocolate cats, instead they are actually black cats with coat discoloration like this. Most articles abut the York Chocolate are written by people who simply read another article online and copied pictures they found online. This leads to lots of misinformation out there.

I actually remember the York Chocolate breed from late 80s/early 90s cats shows in the New England area, but this breed never became very popular and is no longer being bred. It is not possible to find a York Chocolate kitten because there are no breeders of this breed any more. Sometimes chocolate cats do pop up in the random-bred domestic cat population, as this is simply a recessive color gene... but a chocolate cat looks different from the pictures you posted.
 

Meowmee

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Meowmee Meowmee the cat in your pictures (of the brownish black cat outdoors) is not chocolate in color. They are pictures of a black cat with some discoloration to its coat. Most pictures on the web that are labeled as "York Chocolate" are not chocolate cats, instead they are actually black cats with coat discoloration like this. Most articles abut the York Chocolate are written by people who simply read another article online and copied pictures they found online. This leads to lots of misinformation out there.

I actually remember the York Chocolate breed from late 80s/early 90s cats shows in the New England area, but this breed never became very popular and is no longer being bred. It is not possible to find a York Chocolate kitten because there are no breeders of this breed any more. Sometimes chocolate cats do pop up in the random-bred domestic cat population, as this is simply a recessive color gene... but a chocolate cat looks different from the pictures you posted.
Here is the link for it...

York Chocolate Cat Breed Information and Pictures - PetGuide

I am aware black cats can look chocolate/ brown as well in certain light and they are considered black noy brown...and that there is a difference. I habe a pb sealpoint siamese, he is very dark in his face etc. but it is a deep vry dark brown, not black. Do you have any pics of verified cy cats? It seems they are not bred anymore. And the histories I found Said they were started from an all white and all black dlh cat on a farm who produced a chocolate cat so it is once again an example of how abreed has domestic origins.

The face of this cat does look black but the body looks quite brown but without pics of actual cy there is nothing to compare to, comparing to havana brown etc would not be exactly right imo.

Either way it does look like her cat and both are gorgeous.
 

lutece

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You are correct that the York Chocolate is not bred any more. The cats I remember from shows about 30 years ago were chocolate longhairs of moderate type, with white markings on the chest and feet. The cats I saw may have been shown by the originator of the breed, Janet Chiefari... I was living in Boston at the time, and I was showing my cats all over the Northeast, where she would have been showing her cats (she lived in New York state).

It's also correct that this breed started with random-bred domestic cats. The original cat, "Brownie," had a black and white mother, and black father. "Brownie" was then bred to her half brother, to produce more chocolate kittens which were the foundation of the breed. Chocolate is a rare recessive mutation, but it does exist in the domestic cat gene pool. Most pedigreed breeds that have the chocolate mutation can trace it to chocolate Siamese, so that is probably how this mutation got into the domestic cat gene pool, too. Rare traits like chocolate are more likely to appear in an inbred colony, such as among barn cats where all the cats are related.

Here is a picture from an Italian web site that might be an actual picture of a York Chocolate cat. The last York Chocolate breeders were in Italy and this might be a picture of one of their cats. You can see that it is a chocolate cat, not a black cat with discolored fur like most of the pictures online. It looks similar to the cats I remember seeing.
york-chocolate.jpg


Web sites like "PetGuide" get their photographs from stock photo companies like Shutterstock, or copy the photos from other web sites. The people who write these articles typically don't know enough about each breed to be able to distinguish one breed from another by looking at pictures, so they often end up accidentally choosing pictures that don't represent the breed they are writing about. Honestly, most people here in the "Describing Cats" forum could probably do a better job of choosing pictures than these authors do!! :)

Luckily, PetGuide does list credits for two of the photographers, so we can look up where two of the pictures came from.

The first picture of the black domestic longhaired cat with discolored fur came from this photographer, "Kosobu" who is located in Ukraine. Here are the cat pictures by this photographer listed on Shutterstock. You can see the photograph from the article listed here as "Close-up portrait of dark brown cat outdoors."

The last picture in the PetGuide article appears to be two chocolate British Shorthair kittens. The photographer is Irina "oxilixo" Danilova, located in Estonia. Here are more pictures showing what appear to be the same kittens.
 
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lutece

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Also, here's another thread on TCS that shows some good pictures of black cats with brownish looking fur, so you can see some more examples of how black cats can look. Brownish looking fur is a pretty common phenomenon in black cats.
Here are two pictures of sivyaleah sivyaleah 's black Maine Coon, Luna, from the above thread:
luna brown.jpg
luna brown 2.jpg
 

Meowmee

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Also, here's another thread on TCS that shows some good pictures of black cats with brownish looking fur, so you can see some more examples of how black cats can look. Brownish looking fur is a pretty common phenomenon in black cats.
[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
Here are two pictures of sivyaleah sivyaleah 's black Maine Coon, Luna, from the above thread:
View attachment 334054
View attachment 334055
Oooh pretty cats💕 but the second ( is it the same cat?hard to believe, if so the light must have affected the color, but I don’t think it could affected that dramatically so looks like a pointed cat to me, ) does not look like a black cat at all to me, looks like a pointed cat with blue, and tawny colors. My wizarduni was a true black cat but in the sun he had a few brownish hairs but he was truly black while Quinn who is a sealpoint siamese, which looks black to some from afar but which is actually a very dark brown, it is not only chocolate point siamese that have the brown coloration. I did read that about them having a siamese heritage as well. Very interesting! One of the pages I found said that the mom was an all white cat but now this one I think says she was black and white and it seem to be saying that they were not all chocolate either I don’t know I guess we don’t have enough pictures to tell LOL. The cat you posted it is really gorgeous!
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Meowmee

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You are correct that the York Chocolate is not bred any more. The cats I remember from shows about 30 years ago were chocolate longhairs of moderate type, with white markings on the chest and feet. The cats I saw may have been shown by the originator of the breed, Janet Chiefari... I was living in Boston at the time, and I was showing my cats all over the Northeast, where she would have been showing her cats (she lived in New York state).

It's also correct that this breed started with random-bred domestic cats. The original cat, "Brownie," had a black and white mother, and black father. "Brownie" was then bred to her half brother, to produce more chocolate kittens which were the foundation of the breed. Chocolate is a rare recessive mutation, but it does exist in the domestic cat gene pool. Most pedigreed breeds that have the chocolate mutation can trace it to chocolate Siamese, so that is probably how this mutation got into the domestic cat gene pool, too. Rare traits like chocolate are more likely to appear in an inbred colony, such as among barn cats where all the cats are related.

Here is a picture from an Italian web site that might be an actual picture of a York Chocolate cat. The last York Chocolate breeders were in Italy and this might be a picture of one of their cats. You can see that it is a chocolate cat, not a black cat with discolored fur like most of the pictures online. It looks similar to the cats I remember seeing.
View attachment 334051
[/URL][/URL]

Web sites like "PetGuide" get their photographs from stock photo companies like Shutterstock, or copy the photos from other web sites. The people who write these articles typically don't know enough about each breed to be able to distinguish one breed from another by looking at pictures, so they often end up accidentally choosing pictures that don't represent the breed they are writing about. Honestly, most people here in the "Describing Cats" forum could probably do a better job of choosing pictures than these authors do!! :)

Luckily, PetGuide does list credits for two of the photographers, so we can look up where two of the pictures came from.

The first picture of the black domestic longhaired cat with discolored fur came from this photographer, "Kosobu" who is located in Ukraine. Here are the cat pictures by this photographer listed on Shutterstock. You can see the photograph from the article listed here as "Close-up portrait of dark brown cat outdoors."
[/URL][/URL]
[/URL][/URL]

The last picture in the PetGuide article appears to be two chocolate British Shorthair kittens. The photographer is Irina "oxilixo" Danilova, located in Estonia. Here are more pictures showing what appear to be the same kittens.
[/URL][/URL]
[/URL][/URL]
I thought the kittens were not related but I wasn't sure what breed, maybe havana, have to study them more. I still think it is hard to say what chocolate yorks look like since we have no verifiable pictures of them but obviously these photos were p just grabbed as an example, the older cats do look like her cat quite a bit.but they do look mor black for sure😊 what type of cats did you show?
 

lutece

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I thought the kittens were not related but I wasn't sure what breed, maybe havana, have to study them more. I still think it is hard to say what chocolate yorks look like since we have no verifiable pictures of them but obviously these photos were p just grabbed as an example, the older cats do look like her cat quite a bit.but they do look mor black for sure😊 what type of cats did you show?
The chocolate kittens in the picture are definitely British Shorthairs, although they are pet quality. If you look at the photographer's entire portfolio, you will see a lot of pictures that she took of that litter of kittens.

Havana Browns look totally different, they have a foreign body style, a much flatter coat, and an unusual head type that is different from all other breeds.

I breed and show Chartreux. In the 1990s I also had some Maine Coons, but my main breed has always been Chartreux.
 

lutece

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Oooh pretty cats💕 but the second ( is it the same cat?hard to believe, if so the light must have affecyed the color, but I don’t think I could affected that dramatically so looks like a pointed cat to me, ) does not look like a black cat at all to me, looks like a pointed cat with blue, and tawny colors. My wizarduni was a true black cat but in the sun he had a few brownish hairs but he was truly black while Quinn who is a sealpoint siamese, which looks black to some from afar but which is actually a very dark brown, it is not only chocolate point siamese that have the brown coloration. I did read that about them having a siamese heritage as well. Very interesting! One of the pages I found said that the mom was an all white cat but now this one I think says she was black and white and it seem to be saying that they were not all chocolate either I don’t know I guess we don’t have enough pictures to tell LOL. The cat you posted it is really gorgeous!
sivyaleah sivyaleah 's cat Luna is a pedigreed Maine Coon and is black in color, even though she was going through a very chocolatey looking phase when those pictures were taken. I agree Luna is a beautiful cat :) Both pictures are of the same cat. She is a good example of how black cats don't always look solid black. Maine Coons don't come in chocolate or pointed colors.
 

Meowmee

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sivyaleah sivyaleah 's cat Luna is a pedigreed Maine Coon and is black in color, even though she was going through a very chocolatey looking phase when those pictures were taken. I agree Luna is a beautiful cat :) Both pictures are of the same cat. She is a good example of how black cats don't always look solid black. Maine Coons don't come in chocolate or pointed colors.
Hmm well I would not call her a black cat, lol. Wizard was a black cat for sure, but she is gorgeous. She does look pointed though, I have never seen a black cat that looks pointed like she does. Maybe it is partly the long hair in the lighting I don’t know.
 
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Meowmee

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The chocolate kittens in the picture are definitely British Shorthairs, although they are pet quality. If you look at the photographer's entire portfolio, you will see a lot of pictures that she took of that litter of kittens.

Havana Browns look totally different, they have a foreign body style, a much flatter coat, and an unusual head type that is different from all other breeds.

I breed and show Chartreux. In the 1990s I also had some Maine Coons, but my main breed has always been Chartreux.
Yes the ones you linked do, I think I was looking at a different pic before maybe. I was wonder why British shorthairs are called short hair when they actually have very thick fluffy hair- makes no sense to me
 

lutece

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Hmm well I would not call her a black cat, lol. Wizard was a black cat sure, but she is gorgeous. She does look pointed though, I have never seen a black cat that looks pointed like she does. Maybe it is partly the long air in the lighting I don’t know.
Black cats can go through phases where they look very brownish like that... it is normal. If you look at the whole thread I linked, you will see more discussion, and a picture of Luna in an earlier stage when she looked much more solid black. This is the same cat!

luna black.jpg
 
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