Help Needed In Japan

[Solcita]

Update: Kato eventually went back to the front where her kittens are located. It took a while for her to go into the cage again, as she simply relaxed in our entrance hallway.
She did try to find the way to get out through the window... and now that she is back in the cage she looks rather sad.
I have started to think she could be tamed and become a pet cat, but after seeing her today, I think she would def need to be an outdoor cat...

On the other hand, even when we installed Felliway more than a week ago, the situation with our resident cats is not improving, and I dare to say it's getting worse.
We have two cats: Chihiro (9 years old, deft due to a very bad infection that affected her ears when she was rescued, cancer survivor) and Ponyo (8 years old).

Chihiro is the sweetest cat in the world with humans, but she never loved Ponyo, although she would sleep almost cuddling her during very cold nights... and we used to sleep all together in bed with no issues.
After her surgery and treatment last year, Chihiro changed a lot, and she simply doesn't like Ponyo anymore. Normally if she is being pet by us, if Ponyo comes to ask for affection, Chihiro would hiss her out and they never played together again.

But since Kato and the kittens are inside our house the situation has been getting worse and worse... now she cannot even see Ponyo without hissing or even barking. Ponyo is no longer allowed in our bed until Chihiro falls asleep. And OMG, if Chihiro wakes up in the middle of the night and sees her on the bed, she will kick her out.
Now that Ponyo is also upset with the kittens (I think she is actually afraid of them), she is starting to reply to Chihiro's attacks (something she has never done before), and today I even saw her punching Chihiro while Chihiro was relaxing.

This is obviously making us very stressed out... any advices?
I started trying to feed them on opposite sides of the doors at the same time, but Ponyo loves wet food so much that she eats very fast and then is throwing everything up... so no more wet food... Our cats have dry food available at all times, should I stop this and start giving the dry food at the designated time and place so they eat in opposite sides of the door at the same time?
Wouldn't this change make them even more upset?

 

[Norachan]

Hi Solcita

First of all, love that video of the kittens playing together. If they are interested in wand toys you can get them to come closer to you while they are engaged in play. Try getting a couple of blankets or kakebuton and spreading them out on the floor. Sit down and stretch your legs out, then cover them with the futon or blanket. You will look less threatening to the kittens like this. You're down at their level and half of your body is covered, so you will look much smaller.

Use the wand toys to play with the kittens and let them run back and forth across the blankets. Soon they'll be using your legs to hide behind while they stalk the toy. Let them come close to you and run away again when they feel they're too close. It will help them learn there is nothing wrong with coming closer and closer to people.

Ponyo and Chihiro are sweet names, I guess you're a Miyazaki Hayao fan?

If the kittens aren't going to be joining your family I don't think there is much point introducing them all to each other. They'll probably feel better if you stick to your routine, don't change things around too much as they're already dealing with a lot of change at home.

Kato will probably be happy as an indoor outdoor cat. As long as she knows she has your house to call her home whenever she needs somewhere warm to sleep she'll keep coming back even after the kittens are re-homed. A couple of my cats are like that. They spend most of the summer outdoors but are indoors a lot more in the winter.

 

[surya]

When I trapped two, three month old kittens, they loved playing with this toy.

Bergan Turbo Scratcher Cat Toy

I would sit on one side and push the ball and they would be on the other side catching it and pushing it back.

 

[Solcita]

Norachan
Thank you for the tips about playing time!
I normally hide my legs as much as possible to look as little as possible. Today I started using one of their blankets... but they are more shy than yesterday. So they kept playing as usual but not coming as close as yesterday.

Since yesterday I stopped feeding them wet food and they can only get it from me or hubby right now.
Mini1 kept eating from the hand yesterday, and Mini2 finally started eating from the spoon. Kato keeps ignoring it.
Today, while outside the cage, neither kitten ate from my hand, but they both ate from the spoon whenever they felt I was far away.

Ponyo and Chihiro are sweet names, I guess you're a Miyazaki Hayao fan?

Chihiro was rescued by my hubby before we met, and he is a huuuge fan of Hayao san... and we adopted together Ponyo so Chihiro wouldn't be alone, right after we watched the movie, so it was super natural name to use on her

If the kittens aren't going to be joining your family I don't think there is much point introducing them all to each other. They'll probably feel better if you stick to your routine, don't change things around too much as they're already dealing with a lot of change at home.

We don't have interest in they meeting each other, but considering we are restricting their areas, sometimes we left the doors open and they can see each other from afar.
Now that we removed one of the doors, we normally don't let them see each other, specially now that we try to let the kittens and Kato free as much as possible...
I'm mostly concerned about the situation with each other...

Kato will probably be happy as an indoor outdoor cat. As long as she knows she has your house to call her home whenever she needs somewhere warm to sleep she'll keep coming back even after the kittens are re-homed. A couple of my cats are like that. They spend most of the summer outdoors but are indoors a lot more in the winter.

We currently have an issue with Kato. Yesterday she went out but as you know she wants to go out WITH the kittens, which we cannot do.
Luckily the kittens have no interest to go out. But Kato understood the layout of the house, that's why she was able to go exactly to the window she used to go out and get in later (the same window where we used to feed her when she started coming)
Yesterday, after she finally went into the cage, we closed it with all 3 inside so we could relax. Then during dinner time, when I removed the litter box, she stayed at the cage door and wouldn't let me put the litter box back in, as she was trying to escape the cage.
During the night, she kept yelling asking to go out... this kept happening until I fell asleep, she would only shut up when I went to scold her, I even considered sleeping next to the cage, as of course this can be a problem with our neighbors as we have two apartments above us that can easily hear her.

Today is raining a lot, so no option to let her out at all... but we are still trying to figure out what's best for her (and our sanity and our neighbors' patience).

 

[Solcita]

When I trapped two, three month old kittens, they loved playing with this toy.

Bergan Turbo Scratcher Cat Toy

I would sit on one side and push the ball and they would be on the other side catching it and pushing it back.

Thank you! I saw very similar stuff at amazon here! We are currently using lots of toys from daiso (all 1 usd) and I am starting giving them the balls I did with old socks! I will go 2.0 in the next purchase!

 

[Solcita]

Today I think it's the first time I feel we are REALLY advancing!!

Yesterday when I came back from the office, hubby said "Look what I taught Kato!" and then proceed to give her CHEESE WITH CHOPTSICKS and she happily ate it!
It was the very first time she ever accepted something from us, instead from the plate!! She would normally totally ignore any advances... so I think she learned from her kittens that accepting food from us is OK!

So this morning, before giving breakfast to the kittens (I spoon/hand feed them wet kitten food), I went with a small plate of cheese and a pair of chopsticks and I gave breakfast to Kato She was laying down in our hallway, inside a furniture (it's open, but she loves it there), and I sat down right next to her and I was able to feed her with no issues.
At one point one of the kittens came trying to steal the cheese and I just push her away with my hand and Kato didn't care at all!
The kittens also came super close to me when I was doing it, as they would come to sniff my tray (first time I brought one), and they had to walk in front of me to go closer to Kato.

Then I went to feed the kittens. Because they seemed fearfull, I layed down in my belly to seem smaller... and when I wanted to realized, Kato was sitting right next to me Today was actually the very first time I turned my back on her.
Mini 1 is totally ok spoon/hand eating when outside the cage, but Mini2 is still fearfull. So she would only eat from inside the cage (she feels safer I guess). But Mini1 realized that when I'm not feeding her I'm feeding Mini2... so she went running inside the cage, and I tried to stop her from getting the food with my fingers (I cannot put my whole hand through the cage) and instead of freaking out she'd lick it! Both of them did the same when I tried to prevent them from coming to the spoon

After reading many stories of feral rescueing, I always felt we were not doing enough or not moving fast enough. But yesterday I found a thread of someone moving as fast or as slow as us... with cats that were fearful most of the time and barely showing their face to their rescuers. Then I realized that most of the non-advancement with Kato was due to our own fear.
As Kato has her two kittens, we are always afraid she might attack us thinking we are harming her kittens, but even in times when we made them cry, she didn't mind.
She cares A LOT about her kittens, don't get me wrong, but she trusts her kittens to us. Of course when Baka Mini 1 climbs up the cage and then starts crying because she doesn't know how to come down and we have to intervene and Mini freaks out, Kato gets upset... but she never attacked us in those times... The only times Kato tried to attack us were because we moved the hands too quickly and too close to her. But today when feeding her, I was resting my hands next to her laying body and she didn't care.

Yesterday I left the door to the kitchen open when I was cleaning in the morning and Kato very slowly tried to go through the kitchen to access the living room (to go to the window to go outside) even when the door towards the living room was closed... Every time I looked at her she would sit down and pretend she wasn't moving... when I moved, she ran back to the hallway.
, w
I think the slow movement is my fault to be honest. I grew up all my life with panic towards cats (my family always had dogs and the only cat I met when growing up attacked me), like, I was an adult woman, walking down a street and if a cat appeared in the sidewalk my heartbeat would go crazy and crying I'd cross the street and keep walking on the other sidewalk. It was that bad. I was famous back in college for my petrifying fear to cats.
But then, my family rescued an adult abandoned cat who was super adorable... (of course I was terrified at first) and then I met hubby and a very young sweet Chihiro... adopted Ponyo together and now no cat is safe from my hugs... we even have a rule at home "no more cats than humans", to make sure we don't keep adopting cats like crazy...

But with a feral... who is no kitten or not already socialized adult cat... I get afraid... but yesterday while reading other "slow" stories, I realized that any advances with Kato were FROM HER and not from us... and that she is super smart and she realizes we care... I am now thinking to bring her to the vet whenever we neuter the kittens for a round of vaccinations... as she was supposed to be realeased they only treated fleas, worms and neutered her, they didn't give her any shots... I think the rule of number of cats / humans no longer apply, I feel Kato belongs to this house...

 

[surya]

Yay!

 

[Norachan]

That's fantastic news Solcita



Ah, cheese. The great tamer of feral cats. My cats love cheese too, especially those strips of cheese with fish on the outside you can buy in convenience stores. I'm not really into Japanese snacks myself, but they do appeal to the kitties.

I guess it makes sense that as you feel more relaxed around kato and her babies they relax more around you. You're doing incredibly well for someone who used to be afraid of cats.

 

[Solcita]

Update!
We have been following the schedule of wet food given by spoon or hand for breakfast and dinner and free dry food during the day and night.

BUT, last night, for some weird reason, the kittens did not sleep AT-ALL and decided to play super loudly all night long.
I think I fell asleep around 4am... by 6am I went to the toilet expecting to see them all sleeping but hell no, they were playing but not as loud as before.

So I decided to skip breakfast. Even when I don't like not feed them, I started thinking of being the sole provider of food so they would be more desperate and would come closer.
Well, that didn't work. Because mom came to the rescue and today she nursed the kittens several times already, so the kittens are not hungry and they seem less interested in coming to eat from me.
Normally I give them an entire pouch in each meal (half to each). Now it's 4.30pm and they haven't finished a single pouch... probably only half.
Around 10 (normally they have breakfast at 7ish) I gave in but the kittens didn't eat much... then they went to nap (of course! they were super tired!) and when I went to check them up mom woke them up and nursed them.

So I tried to go back to normal, I put dry food and Kato went to eat, so I tried to give wet food to the kittens... the ate a bit, but were not hungry and simply went away...
It's amazing how Kato stepped up after seeing I didn't feed her kittens properly...

Kato keeps eating with chopstick, she is sooo Japanese... last night she ate half can of wet (adult) food, but as today her stools were a little bit soft, I will try to give her smaller portions. She now eats a couple of cheese balls and that's it...

It seems they are becoming less food driven... I hope it doesn't lose the total magic or I'd be sc**w!

Other than this, all 3 seem healthy, Kato seems OK, no mad at all... I was going to let her come to the living room but as it's warmer today our cats are not "hibernating" as normal, so maybe tomorrow...

 

[Solcita]

So... from last night... even scolding them through the speaker of the camera didn't work... so Kato came to check...


That is Mini1 looking at the camera when I called her name to stop...


8 seconds later she doesn't care and Kato came to check what they were up to...

(That is our hallway, they throw all their toys to that lower part and play there. They took our shoes rack and make it secondary home... and our doors is metal so when they bump into it it's very loud...)


And this is Mini1 taking a nap today... OF COURSE she is tired...
I will go to bother them again... tonight before bed time we will have a long play date...

 

[Solcita]

The kittens are now starting to follow me a little bit. I cannot pet them with my hand yet, but if I go to the toilet (next to their hallway) they will come to the door to spy on me and even try to get in with me... So I left the door open yesterday and they both sat down at the door looking at me. So yes, I cannot close the door anymore because they come running now.

Kato stopped eating cheese but will eat wet food from the spoon, so now when I'm feeding the kittens she will also demand food. When she gets tired of waiting her turn she normally comes directly to eat from the plate and sits down next to my tray.
She is moving really close to me and sometimes sitting down near me to watch me interact with the babies.

She is still trying to get to the kitchen and sometimes would sit down next to the door waiting for her chance to try to escape...

I am able to touch the hands and feet of the kittens when they are laying down in the cage, even when awake. I can only pet with me hands their head and body when they are asleep. If they wake up while I'm doing they get up and move away but they don't jump in panic as before.

Last night after dinner, during play date, I ended up playing with the kittens through the closed door, and sometimes I opened it a little. Even when the kittens are normally afraid of my hands, they would play with my fingers. Mini1 would gently touch me. I also tried putting my hand for them to smell, which only Mini1 did but with a little fear.
At one point, Kato also came to the door, and would spy from time to time (I think checking her chances to go to the living room to reach her precious window out) and I think she got annoyed or didn't like me putting my hand for Mini to smell it, that she tried to scratch me. She barely touched me, and she mostly pounched the door and then immediately left. The kittens didn't mind of the situation though... So it wasn't really violent, but it's the first time she attacked me without being my fault (moving too fast, suddenly appearing, etc).

The rest of this week we will be mostly out but I will try to spend as much as possible during breakfast and dinner time.... One super funny thing, Kato and the kittens realized the heater has a movement sensor... So now they lay down or play in front of it so it's on most of the time... I have to turn it off or they will break my bank lol.

 

[walli]

Hey! read a bit your thread, Kato seems to be doing good
Hand feeding! wow! I wish Walli would do that!

 

[Solcita]

Hey! read a bit your thread, Kato seems to be doing good
Hand feeding! wow! I wish Walli would do that!

She has her days... When she finds out she is eating out of a human she refrains from eating all together... And goes to eat dry the second I leave.
This morning she ate one bite from the spoon but was in a bad mood so she left and ignore the plate.
It's normal to feel one step forward, two or three back... So I'm not desperating (like my hubby)

 

[Norachan]

You're making really good progress. When you reach a hand towards them make sure your fingers are bunched up in a loose fist. An out stretched hand can look like claws, a fist looks like another cat's head coming in for a friendly head bump.



Have you been letting Kato go out or is she strictly indoor only now?

How about re-homing? Did the lady you spoke to sound interested?

 

[Solcita]

You're making really good progress. When you reach a hand towards them make sure your fingers are bunched up in a loose fist. An out stretched hand can look like claws, a fist looks like another cat's head coming in for a friendly head bump.

I tried this, but they freak out and move away, that's why I tried with the fingers (think almost closed door and a little finger coming in, not the entire hand).

Have you been letting Kato go out or is she strictly indoor only now?
How about re-homing? Did the lady you spoke to sound interested?

I have been trying letting her out. She LOVES going out but she wants to go out with her kittens, so she goes out and starts yelling like crazy, going around the house.
The kittens keep playing so they don't care Kato is outside calling them, but at some point they do get anxious about mom outside and also cry... Thankfully, Kato came back in when we locked the kittens inside the cage and they started calling her... but hubby is scared to try again because what if Kato doesn't come in and keeps yelling outside?

Kato is also trying to come to the living room constantly (where the window out is located), and if it's closed she hangs out with us in the living room (making us leave our cats in the room)... we found the way to make her go back to her kittens though, hubby found a youtube video of kittens calling their mom and when he played it Kato went running back to the kittens like magic.
I've been wanting the kittens to also come to the living room to have more space to play but they don't have much interest...

What do you think? Should we try to let her out again and just wait for her to come back or stay outside without causing a scene?

Regarding the potential adopter, we have a friend in common who is the one who talked about them. I already saw who they are, they are a couple of youtubers, who already have 3 cats in a very small apartment... I honestly don't think they will want more cats, so probably he is not updated... The cats are SUPER WELL taken care of... but they haven't replied yet if they're interested or not, so I am not considering them much. I was waiting for the kittens to be ready to actually advertise them....

I am not desperating, because the kittens don't need to be super small to be given up for adoption so I am not rushing, but hubby is losing his patience as he feels we are not advancing (I disagree though).
Any thoughts?

 

[Solcita]

Oh my... what a few days...

Last couple of weeks have been super busy, work wise for us plus visitors from Argentina we have to care for, and we have been full time outside.

I tried and kept the routine of spoon/hand feeding the kittens in the morning and night, but didn't spend much time with them sadly.
Then one morning, Mini2 (the shy one) came to eat next to me and I was able to pet her a lot, and even pick her up by her neck a couple of times. When I tried for a third time she moved away (but did not freak out). That was a GREAT DAY.
I tried the same with Mini1 a few days later but I couldn't do it as she moved away... since then they both try to eat from inside the cage.
I will try some tough love and stop feeding them if they are inside the cage, so they have to come out to eat (didn't do it until now because I didn't have much time -been sleeping around 5 hours per night, so I wanted them to eat and go to sleep!).

Kato sometimes ignores the food we try to provide, sometimes she eats from the spoon and sometimes she just comes next to me and eats from the plate. The last couple of nights, she came, ate the cheese from the plate and FELL ASLEEP, right there next to me while I was feeding the kittens.
Haven't tried to pet her yet because also a few nights ago she scratched my hand when I went to pick up the plate. It was only superficial, so I know it's mostly a warning, and not a real attack...
Sometimes Kato seems to tell the kittens not to eat from me, so Mini2 goes away with her and Mini1 stays and eats until she is full.

All cats do not hide from me anymore or move away when I go through their hall. And most of the times they don't even move inside the cage when I open the door to leave more food.

Today is the first morning I work from home in two weeks, so I left our cats in our bedroom and I opened all the doors for Kato and the kittens to come. Kato is of course going to the window and exploring a little bit. The kittens are coming and going.
Mini1 is exploring a lot by herself, even drank water out of the water fountain, while Mini2 is crying like a baby and annoying Kato.
We played a little bit with the laser and the kittens ate from the plate a little bit. There's a lot of talking and looking out the windows.

Mini1 is a lot more independant than Mini2, most of the times she sleeps alone in the cage while Kato and Mini2 are together sleeping in a different place.
And now Mini1 is exploring without making noise, while Mini2 is crying non-stop... I am starting to think that it will be impossible to separate Mini2 from Kato and that Mini1 will do just fine adopted by herself, as she is more independant from Mini2 and her mom...

Will try to keep this updated and will try to spend a lot more time with the cats!
This is last night:

 

[Norachan]

Hi Solcita Wow, that's a good update.

The kittens have really grown! They won't always be as bonded to their mum as they are now. If you are able to re-home both kittens they'll do just fine without her. They are still just little babies until they're about 6 months old, but then they become teenagers and start acting more independently.

Hope you enjoyed the long weekend and finally caught up on your sleep.

 

[Solcita]

Update! We have accommodate ourselves into routine again.

Kittens have wet food for breakfast and dinner, and the rest of the day they have free access to dry food.
They have been eating adult + kittens dry food as I cannot prevent them from eating Kato's food...
Kato has been refusing to eat any wet or cheese lately so I just let her be.

As you can see Kato has been getting fatter and fatter! It's almost funny to remember how tiny she was when she started coming...



The coming to our living room is now part of our morning routine. After our cats have breakfast and spend some time with us in the morning, when they go to their morning nap, I close the bedroom door and let Kato and the kittens come to the living room.
They spend most of the morning with us here and when they go to nap, we separate the cats again.
No, we cannot pet them yet, and we play a lot with them... they don't go running away whenever we approach but we can never get close enough to pet them.
If I open their door and stay in the kitchen, they come and sit down close to watch me do whatever I'm doing and sometimes they would kinda cry for me to pay attention to them.
Also, if they're in the cage when it's time for wet food, I simply put my arm inside and feed them and they don't get scared...

We have built a door in the kitchen with the same materials than the cage, so they can see each other and Kato+Kittens can participate more of our every day life. Yes, our cats hiss at them most of the time, but they never get close to the door to attach, they just hiss and leave... and Kato and the kittens seem not to care about it at all.

Kato still wants to go out and stays most of her time next to the window. If we open the front door where she stays she pays a lot of attention, and one day almost got away when I forgot to close her cage door (stupid me), I was cleaning the front and when I saw inside, I saw Kato very very close to the open door...
Mini2 is still very attach to her and at first would only stay next to her or crying out loud. Now she is liking exploring around more and more... both kittens play A LOT and run A LOT in the new given freedom and larger space.
Kato understood that she can come and go, so we don't have to lure her back to her room, she simply goes back by herself whenever she feels like it.

What surprised me was the fact that the Kittens keep going to one of our cat's litter box.
We have 2 litter boxes for our cats, one in the bathroom and one in the laundry room. When I close the bedroom I move one of the boxes so they can use it.
The one in the laundry room stays there, and they use it even with the laundry machine spinning next to it... I already know, once I open the doors, in less than 30 minutes I will have to clean it.
The shocking thing is our cats don't seem to be bothered by it... and they don't go around sniffing every single thing the kittens touched... so it seems they don't recognize them as foreign cats anymore? They hiss at them simply because they are afraid of them? I would love for them to get along, but our cats are kinda special (with the oldest being deft, there's no normal cat communication between them, so even when the kittens try to communicate with them, it's impossible).

The kittens keep drinking from our cats' water fountain as well... They love going into the furniture where it's placed and drink and sometimes eat from the dry food left there...

Should we try to catch them while playing and start petting them, burrito them, etc...? Sometimes Kato stays in her room when the kittens come to play with us, so I don't think she will be bothered even if the kittens complain at first...

Any advices will be highly appreciated!

 

[Norachan]

That's a sweet picture! Kato does look very content now. It's amazing what life indoors can do for a cat. They burn off so much energy trying to stay warm and keep out of danger outside, so even a short time indoors can see them fatten up nicely. She looks a lot better.

How old are the kittens now, about 3 months? It's not to late to start trying to burrito them but generally it's easy the smaller the kittens are. How close can you get to them while you're playing? Can you use one hand to dangle a toy and try petting them with the other? They usually accept pets on their back, near the tail. Have you had any luck petting them with a wand toy or a "petting stick"?

Maybe @catwoman707 can give you some advice here. I think she's worked with lots of semi-feral kittens.

Sharing the litter box with your cats is a good sign, it means they are mingling their smells together and accepting one another.

Hissing just means "Don't get any closer." It's not aggressive, it's just setting boundaries.

Are you thinking you might keep the kittens or are you still hoping to re-home them?

 

[walli]

Things are going well Solicita!!