Bought An “rb” From A Shady Breeder..

[ktea1993]

No DNA test can tell you for sure if she is a purebred. A DNA test can indicate if she is a close match with other Russian Blues that are in the database they are using.

UC Davis has a fairly large database. I expect that the majority of Russian Blues in the database are from North American bloodlines. So if she comes from North American bloodlines she should come up with Russian Blue listed as a high probability for her breed. If she comes from other bloodlines, she may not come up as a high probability match.

Oh that’s awesome, thank you for informing me I appreciate it. I’ll go with that then I suppose, seems like a fun thing to do even if I’m doing it with my fingers crossed lol

 

[StefanZ]

Why so many BYBs sell their kittens already at 6 weeks, or even earlier?, as we saw here.

This should be antiproductive, as it immediately reveals them as BYBs.

Cutting the cost corners? Yes, but I think the main thing is, they BYBs arent good at socializing.
Serious breeders have either their queens as their family girls, participating in the life of the home. OR if caged (bigger catteries usually do cage), they make efforts to be sure they are socialized. Somebody is taking care cuddles and plays with them hours every day. They have arranged visits into the house, etc.

Not so our BYB, whom probably has them caged, and no great effort to socialize them nor the kittens to humans and family life.
Result if sold as 10-12-14 weeks? A bunch of unsellable shy semiferales...
Whom would buy such a one, when you can get a shy semiferale for free from elsewhere??? If fostering of shy semiferales is your fancy.

So they make this clever compromise let the new owner do all the socialization necessary. The kitten is sold at 6 weeks, when its easy to foster and socialize...
Why there are even people whom prefer to buy them this young.

Yours was sickly, so why cost on her extra work and vet fee? YOU did it instead, and as we see, very successfully. Getting as your extra edge the kitten sees you as her momma and your family is her dear family...

 

[ktea1993]

Why so many BYBs sell their kittens already at 6 weeks, or even earlier?, as we saw here.

This should be antiproductive, as it immediately reveals them as BYBs.

Cutting the cost corners? Yes, but I think the main thing is, they BYBs arent good at socializing.
Serious breeders have either their queens as their family girls, participating in the life of the home. OR if caged (bigger catteries usually do cage), they make efforts to be sure they are socialized. Somebody is taking care cuddles and plays with them hours every day. They have arranged visits into the house, etc.

Not so our BYB, whom probably has them caged, and no great effort to socialize them nor the kittens to humans and family life.
Result if sold as 10-12-14 weeks? A bunch of unsellable shy semiferales...
Whom would buy such a one, when you can get a shy semiferale for free from elsewhere??? If fostering of shy semiferales is your fancy.

So they make this clever compromise let the new owner do all the socialization necessary. The kitten is sold at 6 weeks, when its easy to foster and socialize...
Why there are even people whom prefer to buy them this young.

Yours was sickly, so why cost on her extra work and vet fee? YOU did it instead, and as we see, very successfully. Getting as your extra edge the kitten sees you as her momma and your family is her dear family...

S

 

[ktea1993]

Thanks for your input again, and yes that breeder was definitely not reputable at all. She lied and said my kitten was older than she was (4-5 wks) and told me she was about to be 7 weeks, she lied about treatments she had given Mouse for fleas/ticks. She disregarded the fact that I wanted a boy and since she couldn’t tell what gender the kitten was being so young, she just grabbed one and gave it to me. It was a huge mistake on my part, I should’ve asked more questions but again, I was rushed and was afraid someone would buy her before I could. I had always wanted my own cat and when I saw pics/what breed she was supposed to be, I just went for it. This breeder probably makes most of her money by conning, but nothing I can do now. I suppose I will just have her tested, hope for the best and if anyone’s interested I’ll post back here. And yes, her being so attached to me and my family was the only good thing to come out of this scenario. She’s a big baby. I told the breeder myself before I went off on her that she would’ve made the same amount of money had she just been honest, how hard is it to treat kittens of age with OTC flea/tick meds or get first shots? I understand it might be costly but that’s what I was supposed to be paying for. :/ Oh well.

 

[ktea1993]

No DNA test can tell you for sure if she is a purebred. A DNA test can indicate if she is a close match with other Russian Blues that are in the database they are using.

UC Davis has a fairly large database that continues to grow. I expect that the majority of Russian Blues in the database are from North American bloodlines. So if she comes from North American bloodlines she should come up with Russian Blue listed as a high probability for her breed. If she comes from other bloodlines, she may not come up as a high probability match.

I do not know how many Russian Blues are in Basepaws' database; they are still developing their tests and looking for additional cats to sample. I expect that the Russian Blues in their database probably also represent North American bloodlines.

I just contacted another breeder regarding a DNA test and she said if my cat does have European bloodline, it wouldn't come up with anything. She said it was a waste of money and that people would like it to be a thing, but it’s not what people think it is. On the site it shows different breeds from diffferent countries though, so I think if she was European/otherwise it’d come up? I know the info is there on the site already but you seem pretty knowledgeable and you make it easier to understand lol.

 

[lutece]

If your cat is in fact a Russian Blue, but is from European bloodlines that are not at all related to the Russian Blues in the database, it is possible that she would not come up as a close match for that breed. On the other hand, she might match to that breed even if she comes from distant bloodlines. It depends on how much genetic diversity there is within the breed.

As far as the cost and value of genetic testing, I personally only do genetic tests when I need the information to make a decision. For example, I test breeding cats for the recessive gene for B blood type, so that I do not breed two carriers together and create B blood type kittens (as these are difficult to use in breeding programs with A blood type mates). The result of the genetic test is useful because it affects my decision making, so it's worth the money to me.

In your case, is there any decision for which you need the results of a genetic test? I don't think so; I don't think it would really change anything for you and your cat if a genetic test tells you "close match to Russian Blue" or "not a close match to Russian Blue," would it?

 

[ktea1993]

If your cat is in fact a Russian Blue, but is from European bloodlines that are not at all related to the Russian Blues in the database, it is possible that she would not come up as a close match for that breed. On the other hand, she might match to that breed even if she comes from distant bloodlines. It depends on how much genetic diversity there is within the breed.

As far as the cost and value of genetic testing, I personally only do genetic tests when I need the information to make a decision. For example, I test breeding cats for the recessive gene for B blood type, so that I do not breed two carriers together and create B blood type kittens (as these are difficult to use in breeding programs with A blood type mates). The result of the genetic test is useful because it affects my decision making, so it's worth the money to me.

In your case, is there any decision for which you need the results of a genetic test? I don't think so; I don't think it would really change anything for you and your cat if a genetic test tells you "close match to Russian Blue" or "not a close match to Russian Blue," would it?

I gotcha. So they don’t do percentages? I don’t know why I was thinking that - I guess because I’ve seen tests like that for dogs with percentages etc. Maybe it’s just not possible for cats or it hasn’t been done yet. For me it’s just out of pure curiosity, but if there’s a chance she wouldn’t match up with anything because it’s not in the database maybe it isn’t worth it. Kinda sucks because I really do want to know, it’s kind of just a novelty thing at this point. In reality no, it wouldn’t change anything, but I sometimes get fixated on one thing and I need to know. In this case it’s just not possible to get a definitive answer which is obviously why papers etc are always needed. Blah, I feel stupid. Live and learn I guess. Thank you for answering my questions.

 

[lutece]

This 2008 paper talks about the research behind the Cat Ancestry test.
The ascent of cat breeds: Genetic evaluations of breeds and worldwide random-bred populations - ScienceDirect

Most genes are shared between all cats, so they don't give any breed information. Also, most characteristics that you associate with the Russian Blue (solid blue color, short hair, plush coat, green eyes) appear in multiple breeds, so that doesn't identify a cat's breed origin. Genetic tests work by identifying genetic markers that are shared among all or most members of a breed, and NOT shared with other cats. Most of these markers are going to be invisible to you.

Let's say that you cross a Russian Blue with a solid blue domestic shorthair. All of the kittens will be solid blue shorthairs and have a resemblance to the Russian Blue. Each kitten will inherit 50% of the Russian Blue parent's genes, but that doesn't mean it will inherit exactly 50% of the invisible genetic markers that a genetic test is able to identify! It may inherit all or most of them... or it might inherit close to none of them... this depends on which genes it got from the Russian Blue parent. So a genetic test for a kitten that is 50% Russian Blue might match closely to the Russian Blue breed, or it might not match closely. The test won't be able to tell you "50% Russian Blue."

Also, you inherit about 50% of your genes from each parent, but this doesn't mean that you inherit 25% from each of your four grandparents; each of your parents gives you a random mix of the genes they inherited from their parents, so you could, for example, inherit 10% of your genes from your mom's mom and 40% from your mom's dad... this happens in every generation, so the amount of genes you inherit from your ancestors can vary a lot.

So, percentages can be a little misleading.

A purebred cat, if it comes from similar bloodlines to the cats originally sampled that are now in the database, should match closely. A non-purebred cat with some specific breed ancestry is likely to show some match to the breed that is in its ancestry, but this does not really tell you the percentage of the cat that comes from that breed; it just tells you there was a partial match with some of the genetic markers identified by the test.

 

[ktea1993]

This 2008 paper talks about the research behind the Cat Ancestry test.
The ascent of cat breeds: Genetic evaluations of breeds and worldwide random-bred populations - ScienceDirect

Most genes are shared between all cats, so they don't give any breed information. Also, most characteristics that you associate with the Russian Blue (solid blue color, short hair, plush coat, green eyes) appear in multiple breeds, so that doesn't identify a cat's breed origin. Genetic tests work by identifying genetic markers that are shared among all or most members of a breed, and NOT shared with other cats. Most of these markers are going to be invisible to you.

Let's say that you cross a Russian Blue with a solid blue domestic shorthair. All of the kittens will be solid blue shorthairs and have a resemblance to the Russian Blue. Each kitten will inherit 50% of the Russian Blue parent's genes, but that doesn't mean it will inherit exactly 50% of the invisible genetic markers that a genetic test is able to identify! It may inherit all or most of them... or it might inherit close to none of them... this depends on which genes it got from the Russian Blue parent. So a genetic test for a kitten that is 50% Russian Blue might match closely to the Russian Blue breed, or it might not match closely. The test won't be able to tell you "50% Russian Blue."

Also, you inherit about 50% of your genes from each parent, but this doesn't mean that you inherit 25% from each of your four grandparents; each of your parents gives you a random mix of the genes they inherited from their parents, so you could, for example, inherit 10% of your genes from your mom's mom and 40% from your mom's dad... this happens in every generation, so the amount of genes you inherit from your ancestors can vary a lot.

So, percentages can be a little misleading.

A purebred cat, if it comes from similar bloodlines to the cats originally sampled that are now in the database, should match closely. A non-purebred cat with some specific breed ancestry is likely to show some match to the breed that is in its ancestry, but this does not really tell you the percentage of the cat that comes from that breed; it just tells you there was a partial match with some of the genetic markers identified by the test.

Well you certainly know your stuff. That clears most if not all my questions about genetic testing.. I guess I figured there was such a test out there to determine breeds and that papers weren’t that big of a deal but I was obviously wrong. Really sucks. It makes sense you’d want the same result every time and documented proof that the parents were purebred cuz there’s no other way of knowing. I didn’t even know there were RBs that were considered European/American. I might go ahead and do the test anyways to see what comes up just for fun, pretty pricey though. Thanks for all your help, you’re obviously very experienced in this.

 

[lutece]

If you want to do the test for fun, go for it!

 

[lalagimp]

I've always been under the impression that Russian blues start around $800 up to about $1300. However, if you find the cat that was made for you, a few hundred bucks just bought the love of your life.
I went generic and adopted Tommy from the shelter. He's ridiculous. His eyes are rimmed in gold, but he's got a lot of the lines to his body that you look for and the mauve paw pads. He's also very very vocal. His silver tipping is very light, and he had that tabby ghosting when he was a kitten.
We're waiting back on his DNA test. Our other cat got one done and they said she's most closely coded to a Maine Coon.
If your cat comes back with Siamese. Totally normal. They were integrated into some of the breeding lines when there weren't enough in the pool to breed from.

 

[Wags]

Hi - just a couple of additional things (and it gives me another chance to share a pic of Niki lol) Niki may not be as light coloured as you think - when the light catches her tipped fur it looks light also if the photo is too dark I adjust the exposure (so the photo is clearer, but is has the effect of lightening her I think). I have posted links about RB personalities... they are quite distinct. For instance Niki will play fetch with me, but not my partner (we all live together, but I am her 'chosen' person), she always follows me when I leave the room and Niki is vertually silent lol she will give a meow when I am not playing with her enough. She is also a complete clown when playing - when she thinks I'm coming to play she kind of dances/bouncing (all 4paws off the ground at once) down the hallway - it is completely hilarious, I've just never been able to catch it in a photo. That said they are individuals too - Niki will follow me even when I am vacuuming- not too close but she comes room to room with me
Meet the Russian Blue – Way of Cats blog
Russian blue temperament and personality | Russian Blue Love 2015

I shared this photo because I see much of this pose in your Mouse - I think RB's sit in a particular way - Niki is always 'tucking' her paws and I've seen many stock photos where RB's are doing the same thing. When Niki has both paws tucked under it looks like the are almost double jointed as they turn right in and 'under'
View media item 421431

 

[ktea1993]

I've always been under the impression that Russian blues start around $800 up to about $1300. However, if you find the cat that was made for you, a few hundred bucks just bought the love of your life.
I went generic and adopted Tommy from the shelter. He's ridiculous. His eyes are rimmed in gold, but he's got a lot of the lines to his body that you look for and the mauve paw pads. He's also very very vocal. His silver tipping is very light, and he had that tabby ghosting when he was a kitten.
We're waiting back on his DNA test. Our other cat got one done and they said she's most closely coded to a Maine Coon.
If your cat comes back with Siamese. Totally normal. They were integrated into some of the breeding lines when there weren't enough in the pool to breed from.

Hey thanks for your response, is Tommy your profile pic? He’s so handsome I wanted a boy so bad lol. I should have adopted.. the idea of a purebred and how cute she was just got me, I am easily swayed by such silly things, like TAKE MY MONEY. Yeah I spoke with another owner of an RB she told me there are three variants of RB - Asian, American and European British which was really interesting. Are you using UC Davis for your DNA testing? If so would you mind showing me what they give back to you? You can decline obviously I just wanted an actual picture of what I’m paying for. Mouse’s eyes are darkening as she gets older which is cool to see, she has the stripes and the paws. I’m definitely inlove with her haha even if she seems to favor my bf over me sometimes! Daddy’s girl. I took these pics of her today, more spam lol oh and the first thing that came up when I googled “cost of an RB kitten” was $400-600, I didn’t care to research further.. dumbbbb

 

[ktea1993]

Hi - just a couple of additional things (and it gives me another chance to share a pic of Niki lol) Niki may not be as light coloured as you think - when the light catches her tipped fur it looks light also if the photo is too dark I adjust the exposure (so the photo is clearer, but is has the effect of lightening her I think). I have posted links about RB personalities... they are quite distinct. For instance Niki will play fetch with me, but not my partner (we all live together, but I am her 'chosen' person), she always follows me when I leave the room and Niki is vertually silent lol she will give a meow when I am not playing with her enough. She is also a complete clown when playing - when she thinks I'm coming to play she kind of dances/bouncing (all 4paws off the ground at once) down the hallway - it is completely hilarious, I've just never been able to catch it in a photo. That said they are individuals too - Niki will follow me even when I am vacuuming- not too close but she comes room to room with me
Meet the Russian Blue – Way of Cats blog
Russian blue temperament and personality | Russian Blue Love 2015

I shared this photo because I see much of this pose in your Mouse - I think RB's sit in a particular way - Niki is always 'tucking' her paws and I've seen many stock photos where RB's are doing the same thing. When Niki has both paws tucked under it looks like the are almost double jointed as they turn right in and 'under'
View media item 421431

Ohhh Niki is so beautiful! :3 yeah I’ll adjust the lightning sometimes as well because she looks different under different lighting. Mouse will play fetch sometimes but mostly enjoys rough housing, her teeth huuurt - she’ll cry when she thinks there’s no one around to be around, but I think she’s still choosing who her person is as she’s only 5 months. She loves my bf a lot, she would sleep in his lap for hours in his computer chair and now she claims the chair as her own haha. I would like to be her favorite but the other two people I live with have handled her as much as I have since she was a baby. She’s really affectionate and I hope that stays with her as she ages. She’s vocal when she first sees you in the day to say hello and when she wants attention. She’s a little ham. If you respond again you should post more of Niki, she’s such a doll and Mouse does have very long limbs, her tail is also longer than any kitten’s I’ve seen. I love when she goes into full loaf mode lol.

 

[talkingpeanut]

I hope you'll report the breeder to the authorities for abusing these poor cats. Ugh. That's terrible.

As others have said, you paid quite a low price for a purebred cat, and a reputable breeder would never have let a kitten go that young. 10-12 weeks is the minimum age.

How is your girl doing now? Is she healthy? Have you had her fully vaccinated and spayed?

 

[ktea1993]

I honestly wish I could but she gave me a fake name, most likely changed her number and I didn’t get a good look at her license plate as we met in a public place because she “doesnt feel comfortable bringing people home.” All I could do was wish her the worst and call her some names.. lol. I told her she could’ve killed my by kitten by anemia based on how many fleas were on her, and she was too young for treatment at the time. She wasn’t reputable in the slightest, just another conning scumbag on the internet. Mouse is very healthy and finished her shots acouple weeks back, she’ll be getting fixed by the end of August/September when she is fully developed. Thank you for your input!

 

[talkingpeanut]

I honestly wish I could but she gave me a fake name, most likely changed her number and I didn’t get a good look at her license plate as we met in a public place because she “doesnt feel comfortable bringing people home.” All I could do was wish her the worst and call her some names.. lol. I told her she could’ve killed my by kitten by anemia based on how many fleas were on her, and she was too young for treatment at the time. She wasn’t reputable in the slightest, just another conning scumbag on the internet. Mouse is very healthy and finished her shots acouple weeks back, she’ll be getting fixed by the end of August/September when she is fully developed. Thank you for your input!

Oh, gosh. This breeder really sounds awful.

Kittens actually do very well with early spaying and recover very quickly. You might want to consider going through with the surgery before she starts going into heat.

 

[ktea1993]

Oh, gosh. This breeder really sounds awful.

Kittens actually do very well with early spaying and recover very quickly. You might want to consider going through with the surgery before she starts going into heat.

She is awful. I’ll look into that, I’m just nervous haha she’s so little but I have seen kittens as young as 3-4 months spayed.

 

[talkingpeanut]

She is awful. I’ll look into that, I’m just nervous haha she’s so little but I have seen kittens as young as 3-4 months spayed.

She'll recover faster if she is younger, and it will be easier on you! Vets will spay/neuter at 2 pounds or 2 months. For your sanity, I would recommend pre-op bloodwork and an exam. You've already done a great job with her.

 

[mservant]

Young Mouse sounds as gorgeous as she looks, and is doing great considering what a tough time she had as a young kitten. I suspect looking such different shades of gray has a lot to do with the transparent fur tips because without the sheen in brighter light you see the deeper, more blue-gray pigment without that ghost-sheen. Mouse looks like she is still developing her adult coat to me as the guard hairs and under-down look to be different length but that might just be the angle of some of your photographs. Her eyes look to be a very similar olive green to Mouse snr's. The green eye colour can vary a lot and some of Mouse's close relatives have the most intense emerald and jade colour eyes.

I have to laugh at how you wanted a boy and ended up with young Mouse. I very nearly didn't take Mouse snr because I had always had female cats and was frightened by the thought of a larger male. I was desperate for feline company after losing my previous cat though and told myself I was being ridiculous for even thinking about not adopting him. So glad I did as he is the silliest cat I could hope to live with and an endless source of entertainment.

One thing I wonder is whether Mouse was quite as young as you think because another member here on TCS , @Brian007 , also adopted a kitten from a breeder then found he was more popular than she had expected. He too came with way too many unwanted 'friends' of the parasitic variety.... She has two Ragdolls and the younger one looks a lot smaller than his adopted brother. Brian007 seems to have got through all the early health issues now but had the same worries as you in having to treat a very young kitten for worms, fleas etc. The decision around spaying is more worrying I think than it is for male cats but I agree that earlier tends to be easier for the cat to cope with, perhaps as they are less likely to have to cope with hormones starting to kick in and then phasing out.

You have the prettiest little cat ktea1993 , and she sounds like her pursonality is just as cute and much bigger than she is in body so don't waste too much time thinking about whether she is or is not 'Russian Blue' in heritage - she has the looks and the pursonality and without registration papers that is the most you are likely to get. And when it comes down to it, the looks and pursonality mean far more than what's written on a registration document. I have met a few Russian Blue cats that have been bred with more concern for particular physical features (which I didn't find very pleasing anyway) and their pursonality was far from friendly or social. If I had to choose between Mouse snr without his paperwork and one of those cats I'd choose Mouse snr every time.

Weirdly, when I checked out how much I had to pay the very responsible and reputable breeder I bought Mouse snr from and the cost of buying a cat of unknown origins from people on the internet (my only option as rescues here don't home to people without gardens or someone in all day etc), with the neutering, vaccination, worming, and microchip costs it worked out the same!