I would like to know the answer to this question, also. I would also like to know exactly how the oral medication works. I understand the cleaning of the environment - it removes the spores so that it helps to prevent additional infections. But, what exactly do the topical treatments do (kill the spores?) and what does the oral medication do?
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6 Things I Learned from Our Ringworm Plague (book length....)
- Thread starter bunnelina
- Start Date
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #542
Here's a link to an article by Dr. Moriello published in 2014 in Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery. It's good reading for anyone with a serious interest in the subject and I think that means all of us who have ever had to deal with this plague.
This article is written for vets and other professionals but it's well-written and full of info, and should be read carefully, with attention to the links to the endnotes and the PDF illustrations for the whole story. We can all learn something from this one!
Be sure to click on the two PDF boxes down under Topical Therapy. In it, she says that lime-sulfur and enilconazole dips are her two top-recommended topical treatments. Both should be done on a dry cat, as wetting or shampooing the cat first reduces their efficacy according to her studies. These dips apparently kill spores in fur. It's also likely that they create a more "hostile environment" for the spores as well. Miconazole shampooing is not her first choice, but if you can't handle the lime-sulfur for some reason, it's something to try. She notes that she has been doing studies that indicate these findings but she hadn't published them yet.
You can also read what she says about when to clip a cat and when not to. Generally it's a bad idea.
If you decide to look around and see what she's published more recently, please link to it on this thread!
As far as the oral treatments and how they work, they are anti-fungals or fungicides, which means they kill fungus systemically. For more info about each drug, google them. Even Wikipedia can probably tell you what you want to know.
This article states that she's finding that terbinafine is working as well as itraconazole, which is good because it is a lot less expensive and safe in the correct dosage (figuring that out is key, esp in kittens and small cats). However, she says these drugs were given to healthy cats, and that cats who are ill may be more at risk from them. She doesn't discuss griseofulvin here, perhaps because she stopped recommending it a long time ago because it has a higher rate of liver toxicity than the other drugs.
This article is written for vets and other professionals but it's well-written and full of info, and should be read carefully, with attention to the links to the endnotes and the PDF illustrations for the whole story. We can all learn something from this one!
Be sure to click on the two PDF boxes down under Topical Therapy. In it, she says that lime-sulfur and enilconazole dips are her two top-recommended topical treatments. Both should be done on a dry cat, as wetting or shampooing the cat first reduces their efficacy according to her studies. These dips apparently kill spores in fur. It's also likely that they create a more "hostile environment" for the spores as well. Miconazole shampooing is not her first choice, but if you can't handle the lime-sulfur for some reason, it's something to try. She notes that she has been doing studies that indicate these findings but she hadn't published them yet.
You can also read what she says about when to clip a cat and when not to. Generally it's a bad idea.
If you decide to look around and see what she's published more recently, please link to it on this thread!
As far as the oral treatments and how they work, they are anti-fungals or fungicides, which means they kill fungus systemically. For more info about each drug, google them. Even Wikipedia can probably tell you what you want to know.
This article states that she's finding that terbinafine is working as well as itraconazole, which is good because it is a lot less expensive and safe in the correct dosage (figuring that out is key, esp in kittens and small cats). However, she says these drugs were given to healthy cats, and that cats who are ill may be more at risk from them. She doesn't discuss griseofulvin here, perhaps because she stopped recommending it a long time ago because it has a higher rate of liver toxicity than the other drugs.
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Culture negative on both cats! I met with the vet today, and he said that doesn't necessarily mean negative. We did a different culture today (on my request). This one takes about a week to get the results as opposed to 1-3 days. He explained it to me that both cultures are slightly different, so I wanted to cover both bases. I go back in two weeks for another culture, and then two weeks after that for a final. Praying that all are negative!! I asked him if I could let the babies out of isolation, and he said it is probably unlikely that they are still dropping spores. So, I'm going to let them just into my bedroom area that is connected to the bathroom. I am going to continue the twice weekly baths and dips, and finish off the terbinafine (6 days including today). He said the oral medication has a residual effect for a couple of weeks. He wants all of the medication to be out of their system when the final culture is done. I'm guessing that I would stop the baths/dips two weeks before the final culture? Hmm...now I have another question to ask him when I go in next time. He said both cats are looking really good and he couldn't find anything outside of thinning hair on the ear on the girl kitten that concerned him.
This has been such a process. I NEVER want to go through this again, so I may do monthly baths once all is said and done. I can't imagine doing all of this again. I think it would put me in the nut house!!
This has been such a process. I NEVER want to go through this again, so I may do monthly baths once all is said and done. I can't imagine doing all of this again. I think it would put me in the nut house!!
Thank you for this!! I read through most of that information and it is very helpful!! I'm so confused about the lime dip. Both the bottle and the vet said I have to shampoo first. With my cats, if I were to dip by itself, it would roll right off of their fur and not absorb at all. Their fur is almost like a duck's feathers. I guess I better just keep doing what I'm doing since it seems to be working. I'm not using miconazole shampoo. I'm using KetoHex, which was recommended by the vet. It has ketoconazole in it. The directions on the shampoo say to leave on fur for 10 minutes, which I do, prior to rinsing. Then the directions on the LimePlus Dip say to "Bathe animal prior to application. Rinse off shampoo. Pour diluted LimePlus Dip onto haricot and work into skin. Allow to dry. DO NOT RINSE." I do this after shampooing. The vet took it a step further and said to try to get the cats to SIT in the LimePlus Dip for 10 minutes, if possible. I have them sit in it for as long as they will tolerate it. 10 minutes is pushing it with the dip. The shampoo they do ok with. The dip they tolerate for about 5 minutes or so.
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I WISH my kitten's treatment had lasted only 2 weeks!! It was more like 6 weeks, maybe even 8 weeks, and now my older cat has come down with it so now it may be another, what, 6 weeks or more before HE is over it!
Two weeks. TWO weeks. I bloody well WISH.
Two. Weeks.
Hah.
I wish people wouldn't post things like this; it got my hopes up that this would be over a lot sooner than it was, and led to complete freaking despair on my part when two weeks came and went and my cat was flipping well COVERED IN LESIONS!!!
This makes me angry.
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I too followed the directions on the LimePlus bottle, as well as our doctor's instructions. Both indicated to wash the cat in the shampoo first. I put it down to removing topical medications from the cat's coat, that the lime sulfur can more easily access the hair and skin where the spores are.
I did take to bathing Sonny first, then patting him down with a towel slightly, THEN dipping him in lime sulfur. I am also doing that with Gustav, now that he has ringworm. They aren't "dry" when they get the lime sulfur, they're damp, and this seems to be effective with these cats.
Of course, they HATE this...
I'm going to continue with the bath first, as I can't imagine why the directions on the bottle would state to do that if you aren't supposed to. The only thing I can think is that there are maybe different directions depending on the brand you get?
How long do you keep them in the dip? My vet said 10 minutes, but the most I can get is about 7 minutes before they start getting violent to get out of there. I'm afraid they will splash it in their eyes, so I just go for as long as they will put up with it.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #548
I would trust Dr. Moriello's advice not to shampoo the cat, since she's doing empirical research on finding the most effective and fast treatment. If your doctor has done some actual studies to determine whether shampooing first does or doesn't improve efficacy, that would be different. Maybe he's reading the bottle, too, and not consulting current research.
We all need to learn how to evaluate everything we read, from news story to treatment advice. Stick with reliable sources, which include reputable vet researchers who are doing actual studies and publishing in peer-reviewed journals on government-sponsored sites like the NIH and Pub Med. Don't trust anything you read without good sources — unless you are asking someone for their own anecdotal experience. I get a lot of questions here and I am careful to point people to the same-old reliable sources for info and to explain that my own experience is what it is — anecdotal.
My own ringworm epic began in late October and wrapped up in early February, and we had a relatively mild case.
The Lime Plus solution you are using gives the same instructions for treating both cats an dogs. The Vet Solutions solution I used says nothing about shampooing the animal first. Given that two companies are selling a similar product with different instructions, I would look to an expert for advice. Dogs and cats respond to ringworm treatments differently, so that would raise the first red flag for me. Many products are designed for dogs, like every single pet toothpaste, with cats as the secondary audience. They are very different species, one an omnivore, the other an obligate carnivore. I'm going to be following the advice of the vet who deals specifically with cats.
I have no idea who LillyDSH is, but I'd follow the recommendations that come from Dr. Moriello since I know she's doing the work.
We all need to learn how to evaluate everything we read, from news story to treatment advice. Stick with reliable sources, which include reputable vet researchers who are doing actual studies and publishing in peer-reviewed journals on government-sponsored sites like the NIH and Pub Med. Don't trust anything you read without good sources — unless you are asking someone for their own anecdotal experience. I get a lot of questions here and I am careful to point people to the same-old reliable sources for info and to explain that my own experience is what it is — anecdotal.
My own ringworm epic began in late October and wrapped up in early February, and we had a relatively mild case.
The Lime Plus solution you are using gives the same instructions for treating both cats an dogs. The Vet Solutions solution I used says nothing about shampooing the animal first. Given that two companies are selling a similar product with different instructions, I would look to an expert for advice. Dogs and cats respond to ringworm treatments differently, so that would raise the first red flag for me. Many products are designed for dogs, like every single pet toothpaste, with cats as the secondary audience. They are very different species, one an omnivore, the other an obligate carnivore. I'm going to be following the advice of the vet who deals specifically with cats.
I have no idea who LillyDSH is, but I'd follow the recommendations that come from Dr. Moriello since I know she's doing the work.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #549
PS: I think starting with a dry coat is the way to go because shampooing will saturate the fur and skin with water and cleanser, and make it less likely to soak up the lime-sulfur that is the actually treatment. Saturate with lime sulfur on dry fur for maximum effectiveness and coverage — that makes more sense to me.
To keep chlorine out of your hair when swimming, they suggest wetting your hair with tap water before you swim. Then your hair is saturated and will take on less chlorine if your bathing cap leaks or if you aren't wearing one. I think saturating a cat with water and soap will similarly keep the lime-sulfur from soaking in and doing its job. And you really, really want it to work so you can STOP having to do it!
To keep chlorine out of your hair when swimming, they suggest wetting your hair with tap water before you swim. Then your hair is saturated and will take on less chlorine if your bathing cap leaks or if you aren't wearing one. I think saturating a cat with water and soap will similarly keep the lime-sulfur from soaking in and doing its job. And you really, really want it to work so you can STOP having to do it!
So during the dips, they receive NO baths? What about the benefits of a shampoo that has ketoconazole or mitroconazole in it? I think that is why my vet recommended the bath and then the dip.
PS: I think starting with a dry coat is the way to go because shampooing will saturate the fur and skin with water and cleanser, and make it less likely to soak up the lime-sulfur that is the actually treatment. Saturate with lime sulfur on dry fur for maximum effectiveness and coverage — that makes more sense to me.
To keep chlorine out of your hair when swimming, they suggest wetting your hair with tap water before you swim. Then your hair is saturated and will take on less chlorine if your bathing cap leaks or if you aren't wearing one. I think saturating a cat with water and soap will similarly keep the lime-sulfur from soaking in and doing its job. And you really, really want it to work so you can STOP having to do it!
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I've been trying to read all 19 pages but I'm getting concerned about a few things.
I just adopted a kitten from a reputable shelter on 12/15. She came with a clean bill of health on her vet papers. However, just to be safe, I kept her living quarters separate from my adult cat and dog. I did notice a small, sensitive bit of skin on her back while brushing her very long hair but I've never been exposed to RW before so I had no idea what it was. About 5-10 days later I noticed I was breaking out in red, itchy rash all over my body. I was not thinking this was related to the kitten at this point because I have a history of unexplained rash outbreaks. I started taking Atarax as usual and it seemed to get better. About 2 weeks after bringing the kitten home, I noticed that the small patch had grown to about five times the size. I made a vet appointment for both cats, in case it was something infectious.
They did the Woods light test on both of them and both came back negative. They did a skin biopsy on the kitten and looked at it under microscope and said it was normal. They said there was one more test they could do but it was likely not necessary and was an additional $100 (to an already $400 vet bill for 2 cats). I did it anyways on the kitten and just got the results today that it was RW.
At no time during the original visit did the vet suggest it was RW nor did she suggest we keep the kitten isolated or quarantined. In fact she saw the kitten going in and out of the carrier of my other cat and never mentioned this might be a bad thing.
When she called me with the results today, all she said was to bathe the cat in a shampoo she prescribed which was no lime-sulfur and to use a topical lotion and watch my adult cat and dog for any signs.
After hanging up with the vet, I Googled RW. I realized this was far worse than the vet ever let on!!! I am COVERED with rings! I made an emergency Dr's appt for tomorrow. I called the vet back and asked about my other pets, whether they should be cultured, what about oral medications?
The vet said:
I should not believe what I read on the internet. That my other pets are older and healthy and likely won't even catch it and I don't need to treat them preventatively, just watch them for any signs of RW infection. Just treat the kitten with shampoo 3x per week and topical lotion on affected areas.
SERIOUSLY??
I ordered lime-sulfur dip online and cones for both cats to be overnighted, as well as opti-cide fungicide to clean my house. I immediately called my boyfriend to have him check for any spots on himself and to check the dog. He is now pulling all the bedding, rugs, towels, everything out of the house and got our carpet shampoo'er with a HEPA filter out to clean the carpets.
My older cat was a feral kitten rescued from a shelter and he now weighs 13 lbs and is 3 ft long. He is huge, he is strong and he DOES NOT LIKE BATHS. I don't know how I will ever get him through a lime-sulfur bath, waiting wet for 10 minutes, oh my god!! what a nightmare!! But I am SO WORRIED that the vet said it was not necessary to treat the animals that have been exposed to the kitten.
Should I get a second opinion?
Should I TRY to treat him anyways with lime-sulfur and just pray he hasn't already gotten it?
I work a very demanding full time job, I have no idea how I will ever get the time to clean everything! My house is huge, it has 3 levels and she has been in every single level, every room of the damn house!
The kitten is quarantined in her room and I will keep using the shampoo and lotion the vet gave me until the lime-sulfur dip arrives. I called the shelter where I got her and they offered to treat her for me but I have NO faith in their ability when she came from them infected with visible signs if you know what to look for (unfortunately I know now!!) and they SHOULD have known what to look for. The shelter owner ACTUALLY said "It's not that contagious unless your immune system is weak. I could rub a cat covered in RW all over my body and I would not get it".
I COULD SCREAM!!
I just adopted a kitten from a reputable shelter on 12/15. She came with a clean bill of health on her vet papers. However, just to be safe, I kept her living quarters separate from my adult cat and dog. I did notice a small, sensitive bit of skin on her back while brushing her very long hair but I've never been exposed to RW before so I had no idea what it was. About 5-10 days later I noticed I was breaking out in red, itchy rash all over my body. I was not thinking this was related to the kitten at this point because I have a history of unexplained rash outbreaks. I started taking Atarax as usual and it seemed to get better. About 2 weeks after bringing the kitten home, I noticed that the small patch had grown to about five times the size. I made a vet appointment for both cats, in case it was something infectious.
They did the Woods light test on both of them and both came back negative. They did a skin biopsy on the kitten and looked at it under microscope and said it was normal. They said there was one more test they could do but it was likely not necessary and was an additional $100 (to an already $400 vet bill for 2 cats). I did it anyways on the kitten and just got the results today that it was RW.
At no time during the original visit did the vet suggest it was RW nor did she suggest we keep the kitten isolated or quarantined. In fact she saw the kitten going in and out of the carrier of my other cat and never mentioned this might be a bad thing.
When she called me with the results today, all she said was to bathe the cat in a shampoo she prescribed which was no lime-sulfur and to use a topical lotion and watch my adult cat and dog for any signs.
After hanging up with the vet, I Googled RW. I realized this was far worse than the vet ever let on!!! I am COVERED with rings! I made an emergency Dr's appt for tomorrow. I called the vet back and asked about my other pets, whether they should be cultured, what about oral medications?
The vet said:
I should not believe what I read on the internet. That my other pets are older and healthy and likely won't even catch it and I don't need to treat them preventatively, just watch them for any signs of RW infection. Just treat the kitten with shampoo 3x per week and topical lotion on affected areas.
SERIOUSLY??
I ordered lime-sulfur dip online and cones for both cats to be overnighted, as well as opti-cide fungicide to clean my house. I immediately called my boyfriend to have him check for any spots on himself and to check the dog. He is now pulling all the bedding, rugs, towels, everything out of the house and got our carpet shampoo'er with a HEPA filter out to clean the carpets.
My older cat was a feral kitten rescued from a shelter and he now weighs 13 lbs and is 3 ft long. He is huge, he is strong and he DOES NOT LIKE BATHS. I don't know how I will ever get him through a lime-sulfur bath, waiting wet for 10 minutes, oh my god!! what a nightmare!! But I am SO WORRIED that the vet said it was not necessary to treat the animals that have been exposed to the kitten.
Should I get a second opinion?
Should I TRY to treat him anyways with lime-sulfur and just pray he hasn't already gotten it?
I work a very demanding full time job, I have no idea how I will ever get the time to clean everything! My house is huge, it has 3 levels and she has been in every single level, every room of the damn house!
The kitten is quarantined in her room and I will keep using the shampoo and lotion the vet gave me until the lime-sulfur dip arrives. I called the shelter where I got her and they offered to treat her for me but I have NO faith in their ability when she came from them infected with visible signs if you know what to look for (unfortunately I know now!!) and they SHOULD have known what to look for. The shelter owner ACTUALLY said "It's not that contagious unless your immune system is weak. I could rub a cat covered in RW all over my body and I would not get it".
I COULD SCREAM!!
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Thank you for sharing your pictures. I'm so sorry for EVERYONE that has been through this. It's so good to see your kitty doing better.
I too am afraid that Grace will hate me soon. I am missing out on just being able to enjoy her because she has to be bathed every other day, which she hates, of course, and then the antibiotics she is on twice a day. I'm afraid she will forever associate me with bad things, car rides, vet visits, baths, medicine....
Max, my older cat, was a feral kitten, now five years old and he doesn't tolerate ANYTHING well. Car rides and vet visits are a nightmare. He's 3 feet long and 13 pounds of pure muscle and he is NOT afraid to use it. The vet is terrified of him. I just know what damage he can do when trying to bathe him! He will hiss, scratch and bite if necessary.
My vet doesn't seem to know anything about treating ringworm and after $550 in vet bills I'm afraid I will need to find another vet that knows how to treat ringworm because this vet doesn't believe I need to take ANY precautions around my other pets and does NOT want to give her any oral treatment for the ringworm.
I just cried at my desk today and literally got no work done. This is such a nightmare. Thank you ALL for sharing your knowledge, it is the only beacon of hope I have right now.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #553
Amy L,
I'll repeat the quote from the research I've already posted above:
Best of luck, and if your cultures aren't staying negative, consider doing the dips dry. Remember, the dip has to dry on the cat, so no rinsing, either. If the cat is fully saturated, it shouldn't matter how long it is submerged in the dip past a few minutes as it will spend at least an hour drying with the dip still soaking them during that time. My four cats were dry, dusty and yellow for most of the months we treated them.
I'll repeat the quote from the research I've already posted above:
You should do as you think best, of course, but please note that it gets confusing to others who are new here to read about your doing things that aren't recommended and are believed to be less effective.She doesn't think miconazole shampoo is very effective, based on her research. Enilconazole is, but I'm not even sure we can get that in the states.
Best of luck, and if your cultures aren't staying negative, consider doing the dips dry. Remember, the dip has to dry on the cat, so no rinsing, either. If the cat is fully saturated, it shouldn't matter how long it is submerged in the dip past a few minutes as it will spend at least an hour drying with the dip still soaking them during that time. My four cats were dry, dusty and yellow for most of the months we treated them.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #554
cmcd 1070,
Deep breaths, and then if you still feel like screaming, go ahead. Just don't burn your house down. I considered that when I was in your shoes. It seemed like a great idea at the time. But I'm glad I just decided to clean it instead,
Reading 19 pages of this thread sounds as bad as the ringworm nightmare itself. Give it up! Below are three links that are worth reading, and are probably all you'll need. As far as your vet, make her aware of Dr. Karen Moriello's research. She is Amerca's expert on treating feline ringworm, and focuses mainly on treatment for shelters, where it is an extremely serious, deadly problem — shelters sometimes decide to euthanize every animal in the place, healthy or not, because treatment can be so difficult, expensive, and ineffective. She's actually saving lives even though ringworm isn't fatal in the usual sense!
The links and the advice given in the CatSite articles below are based on her research and protocols. She's got a treatment that works:
General ringworm article here on The Cat Site.
Housecleaning article on The Cat Site.
Recent Moriello research that is a good overview of current treatment and so on.
As far as lots of other things you could read, from other people here and elsewhere, I agree with your vet. Don't get yourself in a state by googling. Don't fall for colloidal silver, miracle cures, bleach on the cat (or anywhere bleach shouldn't go). Keep in mind that many strong household cleaners won't kill ringworm, which is a fungus not a germ or virus. And killing it isn't necessarily the best approach anyway (see "Housecleaning" and how a HEPA filter vacuum should be your new best friend).
Don't bother with topical treatments and shampoos that aren't lime-sulfur dip because they aren't as effective. Save your energy for dipping your cats or finding a groomer or vet tech who will do it for you.(Ringworm treatment is a huge pain and can also be very expensive. But when it's over, it's over, and it might be worth it to pay someone to dip that giant cougar you have there!)
Since you have a positive culture, your vet should absolutely be prescribing oral medication. It's important as it, along with the dips, will make your cats non-contagious more quickly. The medication should be terbinafine for the larger cat and either a teeny-tiny dose for the kitten or liquid Sporanox (non-generic itraconazole) if it's still too small to handle terbinafine. These drugs can affect the liver so it's important to get the dosage right. They are not without risks. (Do not your vet prescribe griseofulvin, as it is known to cause liver toxicity more often than the other meds. It's not used by vets who are up to date.)
If your vet doesn't know who Karen Moriello is, and it sounds like she doesn't, either print up the Moriello article above or maybe find a vet who is already familiar with her protocol. It will save you time and trouble in the long run to get the treatment going with dips, cleaning, and oral meds from the beginning. Then you can start doing the cultures that will eventually signal a clean bill of health several weeks (or a few months) from now.
Cleaning is a pain in a big house for sure, but do the best you can. I'm sorry you are covered with it. Your vet isn't wrong to say that healthy cats and humans are less likely to get ringworm but it certainly happens and that's what we're all trying to avoid. You're already in the thick of it, so I believe things can only get better for you! Hang in there!
Deep breaths, and then if you still feel like screaming, go ahead. Just don't burn your house down. I considered that when I was in your shoes. It seemed like a great idea at the time. But I'm glad I just decided to clean it instead,
Reading 19 pages of this thread sounds as bad as the ringworm nightmare itself. Give it up! Below are three links that are worth reading, and are probably all you'll need. As far as your vet, make her aware of Dr. Karen Moriello's research. She is Amerca's expert on treating feline ringworm, and focuses mainly on treatment for shelters, where it is an extremely serious, deadly problem — shelters sometimes decide to euthanize every animal in the place, healthy or not, because treatment can be so difficult, expensive, and ineffective. She's actually saving lives even though ringworm isn't fatal in the usual sense!
The links and the advice given in the CatSite articles below are based on her research and protocols. She's got a treatment that works:
General ringworm article here on The Cat Site.
Housecleaning article on The Cat Site.
Recent Moriello research that is a good overview of current treatment and so on.
As far as lots of other things you could read, from other people here and elsewhere, I agree with your vet. Don't get yourself in a state by googling. Don't fall for colloidal silver, miracle cures, bleach on the cat (or anywhere bleach shouldn't go). Keep in mind that many strong household cleaners won't kill ringworm, which is a fungus not a germ or virus. And killing it isn't necessarily the best approach anyway (see "Housecleaning" and how a HEPA filter vacuum should be your new best friend).
Don't bother with topical treatments and shampoos that aren't lime-sulfur dip because they aren't as effective. Save your energy for dipping your cats or finding a groomer or vet tech who will do it for you.(Ringworm treatment is a huge pain and can also be very expensive. But when it's over, it's over, and it might be worth it to pay someone to dip that giant cougar you have there!)
Since you have a positive culture, your vet should absolutely be prescribing oral medication. It's important as it, along with the dips, will make your cats non-contagious more quickly. The medication should be terbinafine for the larger cat and either a teeny-tiny dose for the kitten or liquid Sporanox (non-generic itraconazole) if it's still too small to handle terbinafine. These drugs can affect the liver so it's important to get the dosage right. They are not without risks. (Do not your vet prescribe griseofulvin, as it is known to cause liver toxicity more often than the other meds. It's not used by vets who are up to date.)
If your vet doesn't know who Karen Moriello is, and it sounds like she doesn't, either print up the Moriello article above or maybe find a vet who is already familiar with her protocol. It will save you time and trouble in the long run to get the treatment going with dips, cleaning, and oral meds from the beginning. Then you can start doing the cultures that will eventually signal a clean bill of health several weeks (or a few months) from now.
Cleaning is a pain in a big house for sure, but do the best you can. I'm sorry you are covered with it. Your vet isn't wrong to say that healthy cats and humans are less likely to get ringworm but it certainly happens and that's what we're all trying to avoid. You're already in the thick of it, so I believe things can only get better for you! Hang in there!
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How does an ant eat an elephant?
One bite at a time.
Keep kitty isolated. Start treatments for this cat. Order LimePlus online and use it according to the instructions. And as far as cleaning goes, if you have to take it one room at a time, just do it that way. Don't kill yourself; take comfort knowing that even if you did NOTHING at all, ringworm does resolve on its own. Do what you must for your own affected skin.
My Sonny is much better, although Gus isn't happy right now. We thought he wouldn't get it BUT HE DID. This stuff is HIGHLY contagious (and screw your vet for not taking this seriously and potentially putting other animals at risk - does he just want lots of money from you bringing lots of pets in for treatment??)
But I know Gus will get better. In time, this will pass. I was beside myself, a basket case....and we are seeing light now.
One step, one day, one clean room at a time.
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I just wanted to thank Bunnelina for starting and tending this thread, and everyone for sharing their experiences and solutions. I rescued a ragdoll kitten December 20, my first cat in over 10 years. The foster mom told me that our cat (who we named Zuzu) had some patches of dry skin, and that the vet told her it was an allergy. So she was put on a hypoallergenic food and prescribed steroids. The vet also did a sulphur dip, just in case. We fell in love with her and took her home. At home, I took pictures of the patches and sent them to my sister-in-law, who is a vet. She used to work in a store clinic and saw lot of rescues, so she told me it definitely looked like ringworm and to take Zuzu to the vet in the morning. I should have isolated Zuzu then, but didn't know better, so she had run of about half our house for about 10 hours. At the vet, her lesions lit up under a lamp right away, so rather than wait on the culture, we started terbinefine that day, and also twice daily applications of miconosol (and I never gave her another dose of steroids). I ordered lime sulphur dip online and have been doing them twice weekly ever since (it made for a memorable Christmas). After almost two weeks, after consulting with my sister-in-law, I stopped the topical miconosol because it seemed like it was irritating Zuzu's skin (lesions that I had not treated with miconosol because I didn't see them) were pink and healthy looking, with downy fur growing back in, while the easy-to-see-and-treat lesion on the top of her head has been the slowest to heal...
Today marked two weeks since we adopted Zuzu. She's the most affectionate kitten...totally polite and well-behaved. It kills me to isolate her in a bathroom because she is so affectionate and is desperate to cuddle with us. She doesn't like the dips, which I do as sponge baths in my enclosed shower because I did one medicated bath (to clean off the miconosol buildup) and she went crazy when I tried to put her in the water. But she has never scratched, bitten, or even hissed at me. She just cries and tries to get away, and then when it's over, she crawls into my lap (by this time, we are both soaked in dip...I wear old sweats to do this), and she quietly sits there while I search through her fur to look for any lesions I might have missed. In a weird way, the after-dip snuggling been a good bonding experience, something I treasure because otherwise I worry she will grow to hate me and all my fussing. I figure if I'm drenched in dip too, it's safe to cuddle with her in the shower! And now, after 5 dips, we have a little routine going...
We went to the vet today for a checkup, and she told me that the lab reported that there had not been any growth in her culture in two weeks. She said they would have expected a positive result by now, given how many lesions she had. She thought that maybe the previous vet's prophylactic dip before we adopted her might have killed off the ringworm...but then what was glowing under the lamp? She took some new samples today and will run a PCR test (thank you for telling us all about that test here -- my vet had never heard of it). If the PCR is negative, and the first culture continues to be negative, we can start the two week countdown...meaning two more weeks of isolation, dips, and terbinafine. Fingers crossed!
Some thoughts: (1) my sister-in-law said that ringworm treatment takes a minimum of 4 weeks, and she doesn't recommend ending isolation sooner than that. My vet also recommended another two weeks of isolation even if we have two negative cultures. (2) The recommendation here to treat ringworm like an allergen is so helpful. I have not bleached everything I own, and I have not driven myself nutty with the cleaning...I have a Miele and have been vacuuming Zuzu's space daily, and using a diluted bleach spray and Lysol...but sparingly. I run the washer and dryer on the sanitizing setting, and count on that being enough. (3) I have kids, and have made sure they know to wash their hands with antifungal (tea tree) soap afterwards, or to wear gloves...and to put clothes in the laundry if Zuzu had lots of contact with them. And I check them for any rash, and spot treat anything questionable with some 2% miconosol cream. So far, so good. No one has broken out with ringworm yet (knock on wood). (4) I think the recommended approach for the dip is to do it without first shampooing or wetting the fur. This is to avoid diluting the dip. But I have done a shampoo beforehand once, to remove topical cream buildup, and to help me wash away dead skin flakes. I mixed a stronger dip solution that time (3 oz dip solution with half a gallon water). (5) Ringworm treatment is expensive for longhair cats! You have to do an oral med in addition to the dips. We had the terbinafine compounded in liquid, and we dose her by putting the liquid on her food (she would not let me near her with the syringe). The 30-day supply of terbinafine liquid compound was nearly $50. The regular culture test was $77. The PCR was $140! Miconosol lotion was $20. At $16, the dip was the cheapest thing, but only because I have been doing them myself...to have the vet do them twice weekly would probably have cost another $50 each. (6) I am glad I have just one small cat. I think having multiple pets would make this way more complicated and difficult to kick. I feel very bad for Zuzu's foster -- I messaged her from the vet's office two weeks ago to tell her it was ringworm, and she has three cats and a dog. I don't know if any of them came down with it, but I guess I should ask now that it seems like the first culture may never grow. (7) I was initially annoyed with the rescue for not screening for ringworm before adoption, but now I think that if they knew she had ringworm, she might never have been rescued. She had close to ten lesions on her head, neck and feet, so it's something she had for weeks before she came to me (she was rescued around Thanksgiving), which makes me wonder if this was the reason she was out on the street -- maybe her breeder threw her out. Her records show she was picked up by animal control, but she is a really weirdly well-mannered cat, super gentle and good with her litter box. It's weird to have a sweet and pretty ragdoll end up in a high-kill shelter, so that's my theory. And now I think of the ringworm as a blessing in disguise, because I don't think she would have been rescued at all if it had been caught sooner.
Our ringworm adventure's not over, but I thought it was time to thank everyone -- these 19 pages have been my lifeline the last two weeks!
Today marked two weeks since we adopted Zuzu. She's the most affectionate kitten...totally polite and well-behaved. It kills me to isolate her in a bathroom because she is so affectionate and is desperate to cuddle with us. She doesn't like the dips, which I do as sponge baths in my enclosed shower because I did one medicated bath (to clean off the miconosol buildup) and she went crazy when I tried to put her in the water. But she has never scratched, bitten, or even hissed at me. She just cries and tries to get away, and then when it's over, she crawls into my lap (by this time, we are both soaked in dip...I wear old sweats to do this), and she quietly sits there while I search through her fur to look for any lesions I might have missed. In a weird way, the after-dip snuggling been a good bonding experience, something I treasure because otherwise I worry she will grow to hate me and all my fussing. I figure if I'm drenched in dip too, it's safe to cuddle with her in the shower! And now, after 5 dips, we have a little routine going...
We went to the vet today for a checkup, and she told me that the lab reported that there had not been any growth in her culture in two weeks. She said they would have expected a positive result by now, given how many lesions she had. She thought that maybe the previous vet's prophylactic dip before we adopted her might have killed off the ringworm...but then what was glowing under the lamp? She took some new samples today and will run a PCR test (thank you for telling us all about that test here -- my vet had never heard of it). If the PCR is negative, and the first culture continues to be negative, we can start the two week countdown...meaning two more weeks of isolation, dips, and terbinafine. Fingers crossed!
Some thoughts: (1) my sister-in-law said that ringworm treatment takes a minimum of 4 weeks, and she doesn't recommend ending isolation sooner than that. My vet also recommended another two weeks of isolation even if we have two negative cultures. (2) The recommendation here to treat ringworm like an allergen is so helpful. I have not bleached everything I own, and I have not driven myself nutty with the cleaning...I have a Miele and have been vacuuming Zuzu's space daily, and using a diluted bleach spray and Lysol...but sparingly. I run the washer and dryer on the sanitizing setting, and count on that being enough. (3) I have kids, and have made sure they know to wash their hands with antifungal (tea tree) soap afterwards, or to wear gloves...and to put clothes in the laundry if Zuzu had lots of contact with them. And I check them for any rash, and spot treat anything questionable with some 2% miconosol cream. So far, so good. No one has broken out with ringworm yet (knock on wood). (4) I think the recommended approach for the dip is to do it without first shampooing or wetting the fur. This is to avoid diluting the dip. But I have done a shampoo beforehand once, to remove topical cream buildup, and to help me wash away dead skin flakes. I mixed a stronger dip solution that time (3 oz dip solution with half a gallon water). (5) Ringworm treatment is expensive for longhair cats! You have to do an oral med in addition to the dips. We had the terbinafine compounded in liquid, and we dose her by putting the liquid on her food (she would not let me near her with the syringe). The 30-day supply of terbinafine liquid compound was nearly $50. The regular culture test was $77. The PCR was $140! Miconosol lotion was $20. At $16, the dip was the cheapest thing, but only because I have been doing them myself...to have the vet do them twice weekly would probably have cost another $50 each. (6) I am glad I have just one small cat. I think having multiple pets would make this way more complicated and difficult to kick. I feel very bad for Zuzu's foster -- I messaged her from the vet's office two weeks ago to tell her it was ringworm, and she has three cats and a dog. I don't know if any of them came down with it, but I guess I should ask now that it seems like the first culture may never grow. (7) I was initially annoyed with the rescue for not screening for ringworm before adoption, but now I think that if they knew she had ringworm, she might never have been rescued. She had close to ten lesions on her head, neck and feet, so it's something she had for weeks before she came to me (she was rescued around Thanksgiving), which makes me wonder if this was the reason she was out on the street -- maybe her breeder threw her out. Her records show she was picked up by animal control, but she is a really weirdly well-mannered cat, super gentle and good with her litter box. It's weird to have a sweet and pretty ragdoll end up in a high-kill shelter, so that's my theory. And now I think of the ringworm as a blessing in disguise, because I don't think she would have been rescued at all if it had been caught sooner.
Our ringworm adventure's not over, but I thought it was time to thank everyone -- these 19 pages have been my lifeline the last two weeks!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #557
Thanks so much for your kind words, ZuzuQ. I think you are right that she wouldn't have survived a high-kill shelter if they'd known about it sooner. The pre-emptive sulfur dip you gave her probably did a lot towards keeping the ringworm contained, and it's always a smart thing to do with a rescue cat, just in case . . . but most people who haven't experienced ringworm would quail at the thought of the ordeal and a smelly, dusty, faintly yellowish new cat. But even one dip, done right, will do a lot to stop the cat from being contagious.
Isolation is really hard on both cats and their humans. With kittens, and even some cats, the effect of keeping them away from most human contact during an already-stressful time can be worse than the ringworm. And stress is not conducive to healing and a strong immune system.
I suggest you read this 2014 article by Dr, Moriello, which I keep citing, because there's some interesting and useful new info there, especially about cleaning. This is pretty exciting news for people who are anxious about contracting ringworm from their environment and choose to throw out many of their possessions because they fear they are contaminated (I've been in touch with people who basically emptied their homes of furniture, despite attempts to reason with them). Here's a quote from the article:
This article seems to have been written before PCR cultures came along, so keep that in mind as you read. When I have time I will try to look for more recent info from her.
I did not isolate my kittens with ringworm as it was too late and my apartment is small. Even so, I heeded my vet's warning and didn't handle our calico kitten who had ringworm during those weeks, except to give treatments, and she is now a fearful, skittish and confused 7-year-old. She is a weird, irrational combination of gentle and feral, affectionate and terrified. She jumps on our leather chair or on the bed when my husband is there and he can pet her, even her belly and face, as long as he uses only one hand. Anywhere else in the house, she acts terrified and runs from us. She's very gentle and never, ever hisses or tries to scratch or bite. But she struggles mightily to get away from us. I'm occasionally allowed to pet her on that leather chair, too, and she sits on the dinner table (I know...) a foot away from me, but I can't touch her. However, I AM permitted to rotate her food dish under her chin so she can get every morsel. I hope she warms up to us and learns to relax someday. I've been told it can take 10 years, so I'm trying to stay positive. But I will always wonder how different she'd be if she hadn't had ringworm and we'd been free to cuddle and socialize her.
Anyway, I would weigh the pros and cons of isolation, especially if the PCR culture comes back negative. The dips and oral meds do their work pretty effectively and if you are all very careful to avoid skin contact with her fur, and wash whatever you are wearing (disposable gloves and a coverall or old shirt would be good) you might very well be fine.
One reason the treatment is so long is that the cultures used to take weeks for results, and it was expensive to do one culture while waiting for another. With the PCR tests, you find out quickly if the treatment is working. Read what Dr. Moriello says about how frequently they can be done. If you did them weekly and they were all negative, you could be done with the treatment within three weeks of starting the cultures.
Best of luck to you, and please keep us all posted on Zuzu's progress. It sounds like you have gotten excellent advice from your vet and your sister-in-law, and you are lucky to have them on your team!
Isolation is really hard on both cats and their humans. With kittens, and even some cats, the effect of keeping them away from most human contact during an already-stressful time can be worse than the ringworm. And stress is not conducive to healing and a strong immune system.
I suggest you read this 2014 article by Dr, Moriello, which I keep citing, because there's some interesting and useful new info there, especially about cleaning. This is pretty exciting news for people who are anxious about contracting ringworm from their environment and choose to throw out many of their possessions because they fear they are contaminated (I've been in touch with people who basically emptied their homes of furniture, despite attempts to reason with them). Here's a quote from the article:
Now we know that the main reason for cleaning is to get accurate culture results! A dirty house is probably not going to spread ringworm! (But for many of us, "probably" isn't enough and we are still going to clean like mad. But for people who simply can't handle that level of cleaning, it's not likely to become a huge issue.)
This article seems to have been written before PCR cultures came along, so keep that in mind as you read. When I have time I will try to look for more recent info from her.
I did not isolate my kittens with ringworm as it was too late and my apartment is small. Even so, I heeded my vet's warning and didn't handle our calico kitten who had ringworm during those weeks, except to give treatments, and she is now a fearful, skittish and confused 7-year-old. She is a weird, irrational combination of gentle and feral, affectionate and terrified. She jumps on our leather chair or on the bed when my husband is there and he can pet her, even her belly and face, as long as he uses only one hand. Anywhere else in the house, she acts terrified and runs from us. She's very gentle and never, ever hisses or tries to scratch or bite. But she struggles mightily to get away from us. I'm occasionally allowed to pet her on that leather chair, too, and she sits on the dinner table (I know...) a foot away from me, but I can't touch her. However, I AM permitted to rotate her food dish under her chin so she can get every morsel. I hope she warms up to us and learns to relax someday. I've been told it can take 10 years, so I'm trying to stay positive. But I will always wonder how different she'd be if she hadn't had ringworm and we'd been free to cuddle and socialize her.
Anyway, I would weigh the pros and cons of isolation, especially if the PCR culture comes back negative. The dips and oral meds do their work pretty effectively and if you are all very careful to avoid skin contact with her fur, and wash whatever you are wearing (disposable gloves and a coverall or old shirt would be good) you might very well be fine.
One reason the treatment is so long is that the cultures used to take weeks for results, and it was expensive to do one culture while waiting for another. With the PCR tests, you find out quickly if the treatment is working. Read what Dr. Moriello says about how frequently they can be done. If you did them weekly and they were all negative, you could be done with the treatment within three weeks of starting the cultures.
Best of luck to you, and please keep us all posted on Zuzu's progress. It sounds like you have gotten excellent advice from your vet and your sister-in-law, and you are lucky to have them on your team!
I, for one, am incredibly relieved to read that the cleaning of the environment is mainly to avoid false positives. I have been cleaning like MAD and feel like there isn't a stray hair floating around at all. Some of the articles you read suggest the you basically have to take a blow torch to anything the cat touches (one article I read said to BURN the vacuum cleaner bags! For real!!) I will keep up the daily vacuuming and twice a week cleaning with accelerated hydrogen peroxide, only because it puts my mind at ease. But, at least I know if I miss a day then it isn't the end of the world and I haven't done major damage in their healing process.
Here's a question for you - how does the PCR culture differ in how it works compared to the other type? Our vet mentioned that they work differently (something about detecting spores with the PCR and growing spores with the other?) Do you have any information on that?
We have had one negative PCR culture and in the process of waiting on results for the other type of culture (that was done upon my request...just because I've made myself completely neurotic over this).
We have two more days of a 30-day treatment of oral terbinafine, and vet said to continue the twice a week dips until the final culture on January 28th. We get one more culture on January 14th. I don't know which culture he is going to use on those days, but I'm going to request the PCR type.
Here's a question for you - how does the PCR culture differ in how it works compared to the other type? Our vet mentioned that they work differently (something about detecting spores with the PCR and growing spores with the other?) Do you have any information on that?
We have had one negative PCR culture and in the process of waiting on results for the other type of culture (that was done upon my request...just because I've made myself completely neurotic over this).
We have two more days of a 30-day treatment of oral terbinafine, and vet said to continue the twice a week dips until the final culture on January 28th. We get one more culture on January 14th. I don't know which culture he is going to use on those days, but I'm going to request the PCR type.
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- #559
AmyL, here's an informative article about PCR tests from the maker:
https://www.idexx.com/files/small-animal-health/products-and-services/reference-laboratories/ringworm-pcr-panel.pdf
https://www.idexx.com/files/small-animal-health/products-and-services/reference-laboratories/ringworm-pcr-panel.pdf
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Thank you! Ok...so, if my understanding is correct from reading it, the PCR is NOT a fungal culture. It detects the spores of the different types of ringworm, but is extremely accurate.
