Supplements For Ground Raw

[xeenthequeen]

I hope this isn't too repetitive, but I have a couple supplement questions.

I give my cat commercial raw ground food that is 80% bone-in meat and 20% heart and liver. I primarily feed turkey and chicken varieties but occasionally switch it up with venison, elk, goat, or lamb. I also give her some "chunks" (turkey heart, chicken wing tips, chicken necks) a couple times a week, and add 1/8 tsp of Proden Plaque-off daily. I used to supplement with lysine but stopped after reading the academic review that concludes it is ineffective for preventing chronic herpesvirus symptoms. I may try a probiotic instead although the literature is similarly inconclusive.

I realized I should add more supplements in order ensure her diet is nutritionally complete. If I add Ascenta Feline omega 3, which contains 15 IU/kg vitamin E, do I still need to add more vitamin E? Would you add taurine to be safe even though I feed extra hearts? Do I have to give all the supplements daily or could I give a bit more a couple times a week?

 

[Ardina]

Which commercial raw food are you feeding? If it's labeled as complete, you don't need to add any supplements at all. It's great that you're feeding chunks for dental health - since those are not balanced, make sure to keep those under 10%.

 

[xeenthequeen]

The raw I feed is mostly from Buddies and sometimes Carnivora (which is actually ground whole-carcass). They are not labeled as nutritionally complete though they don't make any stipulations about needing supplementation. I'm pretty sure the only vegetable-free food I can find locally that is certified as nutritionally complete is RadCat which is more than twice as expensive unfortunately.

 

[Ardina]

It seems that Carnivora specifically states that they don't add any supplements, and it's unclear if Buddies does. For Carnivora, I would add supplements because the grinding and freezing process can degrade nutrients. I personally follow the recipe here: Easy Raw Diet Feeding for the Busy Person - Feline Nutrition Foundation (the recipe is halfway down the page). catinfo.org also has a good recipe. I would definitely add taurine, just to be on the safe side, since excess taurine will be excreted but deficiency can cause major problems. You should mix in the supplements into all of the ground meat. Whichever recipe you choose, make sure to follow it exactly without omitting any ingredients!

For Buddies, I'm not even sure if their products are correctly balanced in terms of meat to bone to organ ratio. I would email them and figure out if they follow the general rule of thumb - 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. If so, then you add supplements as above. If not, you will need to buy additional meat or organ to get to the right ratios. It's very important to get near that ratio because long term imbalance in calcium to phosphorus ratio, lack of calcium entirely, or not enough organ meat can cause major problems.

Let us know what you find out!

 

[xeenthequeen]

Interesting, thanks for the reply. I am certain Buddies doesn't add any supplements. I am pretty sure they grind bone-in meat cuts of chicken & turkey and then add 10% heart and 10% liver to the mix but I'm not exactly sure what those cuts are. I'll email and ask if they happen to know approximately what % bone the resulting mix contains. Xena's stools are very dry but she doesn't get constipated at all which I know can happen with a bone-heavy mix.

As an aside I used to feed Natural Instincts which seems to use a very similar recipe to Buddies for their Turkey and Chicken varieties but they add salmon oil, cod liver oil, egg yolk, and vitamin e (but also no taurine). I switched to Buddies just because it's much easier for me to get. It's a bit annoying that there are so many local raw companies in BC but they all seem to be much more dog-focussed with their cat food as an afterthought (my impression anyways).

 

[xeenthequeen]

Ok, I bought powdered taurine and the Ascenta Feline omega-3. I got a bit overwhelmed trying to pick a vitamin E. I know natural d-alpha tocopherol is preferred but how important is it that it contain "mixed tocopherols"? The recipe above said dry form but I mostly saw liquid/soft gels, so does the carrier oil (I saw soy, safflower, olive oils) matter? I kind of feel like I should have just stuck with an already supplemented food, but too late now! At least it can't hurt to have these supplements around.

 

[Ardina]

Sorry, should have mentioned earlier - if it's easier for you, you can buy a premixed supplement like Alnutrin, TCFeline, or ezcomplete. All of these are going to be more expensive than getting the individual supplements yourself though.

Here's an article about Vitamin E that might be helpful: Vitamin E, as a Liquid or in Powder? - Feline Nutrition Foundation

 

[xeenthequeen]

Thanks again, that was helpful. I had heard of the pre-made supplement mixes but the one I was considering which you mentioned, Alnutrin, is too expensive with shipping to Canada.

I think I've rounded up everything. I am thinking I will mix up a week's worth of supplements, pour into 7 ice cube wells, and then add one cube to her dinner each day. This is my supplement recipe for 1 week (4 lbs of the ground meat/bone/organ mix), using nutritional yeast (which my cat is OBSESSED with) instead of B-complex as in this recipe.

1/2 tsp = 2000 mg powdered taurine
1.5 tsps = 7000 mg omega 3
0.5 mL = 200 IU liquid vitamin E
2 TBSP = 7g nutritional yeast
2 egg yolks
0.75 tsp Plaque-off/Ascophillum nodosum
0.5 cup water or goat milk

 

[Ardina]

If you're following that recipe, are you following it exactly? Including the heart, kidney, liver, etc.? I'm a little wary of that particular recipe because it lumps together heart, kidney, and gizzard - heart and gizzard are NOT considered organ meats for raw feeding purposes - they're mostly muscle meat, whereas kidney is an organ meat. It also suggests adding vegetables, which cats don't really need. It doesn't account for the fact that whole ground prey animals can have drastically different bone contents - think rabbit vs lamb. I'm also not sure about whether nutritional yeast can actually replace Vitamin B. I know there was a discussion on it at some point in this forum, but I can't seem to find it.

@mschauer, any thoughts on this recipe and whether it's nutritionally complete?

 

[xeenthequeen]

Sorry no I wouldn't be using that recipe in its entirety, the diet would be the above supplements to each 4 lbs Buddies or Carnivora and the extra hearts/necks (~0.5 lb/week). I was just trying to explain where I got the idea from. I saw the thread you mentioned and to me it sounds like the nutritional yeast & egg yolks (should maybe bump to 3 though) satisfies the B-vitamins in the feline-nutrition.org recipe.

 

[Ardina]

Sorry no I wouldn't be using that recipe in its entirety, the diet would be the above supplements to each 4 lbs Buddies or Carnivora and the extra hearts/necks (~0.5 lb/week). I was just trying to explain where I got the idea from. I saw the thread you mentioned and to me it sounds like the nutritional yeast & egg yolks (should maybe bump to 3 though) satisfies the B-vitamins in the feline-nutrition.org recipe.

Oh I see - sorry, I misunderstood earlier. That should be fine then. I would bump up the egg yolks to 3 and the taurine to 3200 mg (those are just the numbers I follow from the feline-nutrition recipe). Do you have a source of iodine in there? If the thyroid gland is included in the grind, then you're all set. Otherwise, you would need to add some iodine-supplemented salt - Morton Lite salt is the preferred kind because it has less sodium. Other than that, looks good!

 

[xeenthequeen]

Perfect thanks, I will do that. The Plaque-off has 230-396 μg iodine per scoop, I give about 3/4 of a scoop per day. I thought the scoop was 1/8 tsp but it's a little under so 0.5 tsp/week is closer.

 

[Ardina]

Sounds good - I don't know the exact amount of iodine you need, so maybe do some research on what that number is. But otherwise, the recipe looks good!