trying again

[soysos]

I got a scare from the vet the other day he's recommending extracting teeth on both of my cats two of teddy's and all of pj's. apparently I have a really bad vet because he has been saying for some time that his teeth are bad and gave no options for treatment until we hassled him about it now he needs them all removed. for the record they see their new vet tomorrow. the first time my vet his teeth look bad I tried transitioning to pmr it actually did wonders for him for the first time he was at a healthy weight but I had issues getting my wife on bored, she kept sneaking them kibble and they weren't hungry enough to do the work for the raw. but I digress the reason I'm posting this is I have three issues from the last attempt that need to be addressed.

first is the issue of the feeding schedule every time I have tried to feed them on a schedule there has been regurgitation doesn't matter if it's kibble canned or raw they puke it up. right now I'm getting around this buy giving a limited amount of kibble before I go to work then take it away when I get home then feed wet three hours later. honestly I wouldn't mind this as a permanent solution as long as I can switch the canned to raw.

the second issue is how do I get my wife on board.

and last if the vet is already recommending extraction is it too late.

 

[cattreats]

Why doesn't your wife agree? You should sit her down and explain to her how raw works (if you haven't already) and show her articles and websites that get into detail.

Assuming you haven't already, of course. A lot of people are hostile at first to the idea when you just say "this is better." I know my mom was. If she knows that going to improve your kitties' health, then she should at least be willing to look into it. I mean, she does care about them right? 

 My mom wasn't too into the idea at first, but when I told her all of the amazing things that would improve kitty's health, she said it was worth a shot if it really is going to make her healthier and improve her well being overall. And she's seeing the results herself. 

Hopefully your wife is willing to read about it. Most people that do take the time to read it, learn about it, and understand it are a lot more interested in trying. I know that when I first heard about it, my reaction was something along the lines of "W-T-F" but after one page of reading about it, I was immediately convinced and spend the rest of the entire day and night reading more and more. Then I showed my boyfriend and he was immediately convinced. So far, at least, the only people that don't agree with it are the ones that won't even read about it.

Since I haven't actually fed homemade raw myself (yet), I can't comment too much there with my lack of experience. And I don't know much about teeth issues in kitties, sorry. But I will say that there are a few people on this site that feed raw to cats without teeth, so it's not too late! 

 

[soysos]

basically the reason she is not on board, her thinking is how would I know better what there nutritional needs are than the scientists that design the commercial products. on top of that I'm a cook by trade I have no issues handling raw meat, she on the other hand thinks its icky. she is also under the impression that raw meat will poison them and bones will choke them. she refuses to do the research or even listen to mine. the last time I tried going raw she felt they would not get what they need from it and insisted on leaving kibble out.

anyway I got some news from the new vet first off while their is some abnormalities in teddy's gum line as long as it's not affecting him there is no cause for alarm. PJ on the other hand has herpes that has caused an immunal deficiency and he has an infection in his gums. he is going in for a cleaning on tuesday and he will be loosing some teeth but not all. he is now on medication for his herpes as well as an antibiotic. 

 

[cattreats]

basically the reason she is not on board, her thinking is how would I know better what there nutritional needs are than the scientists that design the commercial products. on top of that I'm a cook by trade I have no issues handling raw meat, she on the other hand thinks its icky. she is also under the impression that raw meat will poison them and bones will choke them. she refuses to do the research or even listen to mine. the last time I tried going raw she felt they would not get what they need from it and insisted on leaving kibble out.

Wow, well that's not good. It's a toughy because she's your wife, but that's really .. close-minded. I guess. 

 I know I would have a lot of trouble with that myself ... Maybe you can find a holistic vet that agrees with raw feeding that could talk to her. But that might also be hard to find.

If she's doubting you against scientists - there are a good number of things written by vets that she could read. I know that some of our more knowledgeable raw feeders could bust out some links for you - hopefully they chime in.

 

[ldg]

Oh how sad!

OK, a few things. If your kitty needs teeth extracted, the teeth need to be extracted. Eating raw does not remove tartar - it only prevents it. So if the tooth decay has already happened, having them out for his health is imperative. BUT.... once his teeth are clean and the problem teeth have been removed, the raw diet is the way to KEEP his mouth, teeth, and gums healthy.

OK. Would your wife be willing to read non-opinion papers, written by vets, some published in peer review journals about cats and their specific dietary needs?

This site is written by a vet, Dr. Lisa Pierson, D.V.M. on the importance of wet food and why kibble should never be fed: http://www.catinfo.org

It is a "beginners" manual, of sorts, on feline nutrition.

Now - pet food manufacturers have an agenda, and that is selling pet food. But the largest pet food manufacturers in the world are first and foremost people food manufacturers. Pet food is a way to turn profit-draining waste into profit. Perhaps if she understood what is IN commercial canned and kibble, she may be a bit more willing to let you feed healthy food to your cat. Here are several articles that may help to that end:

This is a short one I wrote, but it references experts and industry data: http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and...y-cat-or-i-can-afford-to-feed-commercial-raw/

And this paper is written by a Harvard Law Student on Pet Food Regulation, and gets into the details of the horrors of what goes into pet food. The paper is titled "Deconstructing the Regulatory Façade: Why Confused Consumers Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes." http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html You might want to skip directly to Section IV, "How Current Regulations Result in Confused Owners and Diseased Pets."

FYI, there are no documented cases of owners getting sick from feeding raw food to pets. There are 142 documented cases of people developing salmonella from feeding kibble to their pets. If she thinks commercial canned and dry is so safe, perhaps show her the long, long, long lists of recalls for canned and kibble foods? Just google cat food recalls. Here's an example: http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/...ions-how-big-is-the-diamond-pet-foods-recall/

Would it help her if she understood that cats are obligate carnivores, and just what that means? While Dr. Pierson's site (http://www.catinfo.org ) is a good place to start, a paper hosted on her site is a bit technical, having been published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, but it explains why cats need a species-appropriate diet, and just what that is: http://www.catinfo.org/docs/zorans_article.pdf


The bottom line is that a cat in the wild eats small mammals - not cooked. This is what cats are designed to eat. People do not put up fences around their gardens to prevent cats from raiding the peas, potatoes, carrots and corn. So why are these present in cat food we buy for them?

If she is concerned about formulation, perhaps it would be best to start with one of the many commercial raw foods available now. They are not like handling meat - they're frozen patties or medallions. And if she wants to give them "crunchies," she can give them freeze dried raw foods, particularly those made by Stella & Chewy's. They're meant for rehydration, but they're in large, kibble-like pieces. These are too expensive to use as the sole diet for most people. But if she wants to "sneak" kitty dry treats, the freeze raw is an excellent choice.

If she would prefer reading a book, I suggest you order Michelle Bernard's Raising Cats Naturally. While much of the book is about making your own food, the beginning of the book is about feeding your cat a species-approrpriate diet - and it is ALL cited and referenced, not just opinions.

Please let us know if we can be of more help!

 

[soysos]

Oh how sad!

OK, a few things. If your kitty needs teeth extracted, the teeth need to be extracted. Eating raw does not remove tartar - it only prevents it. So if the tooth decay has already happened, having them out for his health is imperative. BUT.... once his teeth are clean and the problem teeth have been removed, the raw diet is the way to KEEP his mouth, teeth, and gums healthy.
 

OK let me clarify this point, the thing that I was upset about is that his original vet was recommending extracting all of his teeth without a detail cleaning. I found out with the new vet I was right. the discomfort is caused by an infection in his mouth, extracting his teeth won't help. he is going to have to loose some teeth, the gum loss is too sever, we won't know for certain how many until he is under for cleaning tomorrow. one question I do have is will he still be able to eat raw without  teeth? 

thanks for all the documentation. hopefully this will help.

 

[otto]

OK let me clarify this point, the thing that I was upset about is that his original vet was recommending extracting all of his teeth without a detail cleaning. I found out with the new vet I was right. the discomfort is caused by an infection in his mouth, extracting his teeth won't help. he is going to have to loose some teeth, the gum loss is too sever, we won't know for certain how many until he is under for cleaning tomorrow. one question I do have is will he still be able to eat raw without  teeth? 

thanks for all the documentation. hopefully this will help.

Is it stomatitis? There are cats out there whose stomatitis has been cured by being put on a raw diet. (after the mouth was made as healthy as possible with cleaning/extractions) Sure he can eat raw without teeth, he can eat ground commercial or ground homemade, and probably, with the pain gone, he'll be able to eat small chunks too.

Good luck to you and your cats.

 

[txcatmom]

My Lucy had all her teeth extracted behind the canines.  Mine eat mostly ground raw but she handles the occasional chunks I give her just fine....she loves the chunks.  And in her case, the raw diet isn't a cure (she has stomatitis) but I can't believe that excellent nutrition isn't at least helping. 

 

[otto]

It's got be be helping Lucy, even if it didn't cure her! It was my vet who told me she'd seen a couple of stomatitis cases cured with a raw diet. Also IBD. I was surprised, as my vet is cautious by nature and a bit conservative, and I wasn't sure how she would react when I told her I was feeding raw. She is very supportive.

 

[txcatmom]

It was my vet who told me she'd seen a couple of stomatitis cases cured with a raw diet. Also IBD.

Carolina's Bugsy seems to be cured of both things on raw. 

 

[ldg]

OK let me clarify this point, the thing that I was upset about is that his original vet was recommending extracting all of his teeth without a detail cleaning. I found out with the new vet I was right. the discomfort is caused by an infection in his mouth, extracting his teeth won't help. he is going to have to loose some teeth, the gum loss is too sever, we won't know for certain how many until he is under for cleaning tomorrow. one question I do have is will he still be able to eat raw without  teeth? 

thanks for all the documentation. hopefully this will help.

Oh yes, definitely. I feed prey model raw - I cut the meat into the sizes my cats will eat - one gets it minced, one gets it bite sized, most get strips. But I have one kitty that has all his teeth (and they're in good shape, as are his gums), but he doesn't chew. Makes sense - I care for ferals, and time after time, I see them grab a mouse and give it one good shake then just... swallow it whole. Many cats don't chew at all.

 

[soysos]

argh pj went to the vet at 7 this morning to have his teeth clean and extracted. it is now 530 and he has not yet gone under. pj has a lot of anxiety issues and a heart murmur. I know this is what he needs right now but I know he's going through hell.

 

[soysos]

finally got pj back from the vet he is very happy to be home and seems to be in less pain then when he went in. they did have to pull all of his molars and premolars. I really don't want to spend the money on a meat grinder but it looks like I'll have to. can anyone recommend a good one, or alternatives to grinding. regardless I think once his gums heal I'm going to give him some strips of meat maybe some strips of rib and see how he handles it.

 

[Willowy]

I think he'll be OK with not-too-large pieces of meat. One of my mom's cats has no back teeth and still eats birds (she can't hunt anymore but manages to find birds that flew into windows and such). And there's nothing left but feathers when she's done :dk:. So she must even eat the bones. . ..but for a toothless cat that isn't used to bones I wouldn't count on them starting now---I'd suggest supplementing with calcium or grinding bones. But the meat can be chunky.

 

[ldg]

If you want to make your own ground food, this is the grinder I see recommended everywhere: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/250476/...ons-for-those-of-you-who-have-one-please-help

If you're in the U.S. - in the east, midwest, east TX, or SE, you can also consider ordering from Hare Today (although mrsgreenjeens in AZ ordered from there and it arrived frozen if I remember correctly!). They have very reasonable shipping charges - one box is up to 51 pounds, I think, and a nice, wide variety of whole ground animals. :nod: http://www.hare-today.com

for your boy!!!

 

[soysos]

OK a bit of an update. PJ is healing very well, his stitches have dissolved, his gums are nearly healed and there is no sign of infection. I decided that since he is in such good shape that I would try giving him some ground raw, this did not go well. I went out and got some NV chicken bites. last night they got 2oz and would not touch it. I added some canned to it they sort of nibbled then walked away. so, they got canned anyway. this morning I gave it to them again same result so they ate kibble.

I always leave kibble out when no one is home then take it away 3 hours before their dinner and they get nothing overnight. I really wish I could take the kibble out entirely but if the people aren't home and they have no food I end up with two very worked up kitties marking their territory and puking. 

anyway, tonight I gave them their usual 1/4 can with an ounce of raw turkey heart. this went over just fine, though I did have to cut PJ's a little finer. I think they just can't stand NV.

the one big problem that I'm having is that teddy is loosing interest in canned/raw. this happens every time I start feeding it, he's really enthusiastic for a couple of weeks then he looses interest. he nibbles at it then waits for his kibble. he did eat about half hid dinner both heart and canned.

 

[soysos]

well I think I finally have my wife on board. I found a pet shop where not only do they have an extensive raw selection, both frozen and freeze dried, its $0.15 a day more than I was paying for canned and cheaper than some canned foods. anyway she gave them their raw food last night. interesting result both cats ignored the raw by itself but when placed side by side with canned teddy my usually finicky boy cleaned his plate then ate PJ's raw which he had walked away from after eating his canned. this morning they just got canned. this afternoon I got some primal freeze dried and put it down in place of kibble, can't do that for long too pricy. anyway I reconstituted some and mixed in a few bites of raw and PJ cleaned his plate. the question is where do I go from here, my ultimate goal is to be 100% raw. I still have 2 weeks worth of canned and 2 months worth of kibble so not a huge hurry.