Supplement for Raw

[wilson]

Can someone give me a list of supplements i could give instead of bone, and how would I add that to frankenprey?

My one cat has no teeth, and my wilson would probably not know what to do with bones, he is now 8yrs old, and only been fed wet and little pieces of raw all his life. Is there something I can use instead of bone?

I would prefer the supplement not have any fruit, or vegies.

Thanks

p.s today I went to price organic chicken..my oh my, for 2 small pieces of chicken breast was 10.00$, hopefully some other grocer wil lhave cheaper meat.

 

[ldg]

Hi Wilson! There are options!

At least two of us on TCS feed "boneless" frankenprey.

I add the calcium supplement at meal time, so does Carolina. She uses eggshell powder exclusively, because one of her cats cannot tolerate bone-in meals, or, apparently, bone meal!

I use eggshell powder and Microcrystalline hydroxyapatite (MCHA). There is only one source of MCHA in the States that has no other additives, and that is NOW calcium hydroxyapatite. :nod: MCHA is freeze dried bone, so it retains the nutrient profile of "fresh" bone (unlike bone meal, which is created via high temperature processing).

You can use human grade bone meal. I don't know how much of that to use, I've never figured it out.

The trick to supplementing calcium is to realize that what you're attempting to do is balance the phosphorus in the meat, and provide the "correct" ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus. That definition of "correct" varies, but is generally understood to be between 1.0:1 and 1.5:1. A study of feral cat diets indicate that they eat a ratio of about 1.5:1, but the theory is that the bioavailability of minerals from fresh bone is lower, thus they "naturally" eat a higher ratio than needed when using a supplement.

I personally target a ratio of 1.3:1.

Here is a recent discussion on the subject: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/246213/what-calcium-to-phosphorus-ratio-do-you-aim-for-in-your-raw-diet

If you want a copy of the Plantinga study, just PM me with your email address and I'll send it along. :nod: (It's a PDF file you have to pay for if you want to access the full study online, unless you have an affiliation with a library or college or university that will carry it. Here's the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005434 ).

I figured out how much my cats need to eat weekly, then calculated the amount of meat/secreting organs to feed. I feed 90% meat and muscle organs (heart and gizzards), 5% liver (chicken and pork), and 5% beef kidney, lamb thymus, and beef pancreas. (I also feed rabbit organs when I have them).

I alternate between powdered eggshell and the NOW calcium hydroxyapatite weekly (just because I feed 8 cats 2 pound of food a day, and the NOW calcium hydroxyapatite is relatively expensive when feeding that much).

This is the eggshell I use: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html (Scroll down the page to the bottom).
This is the NOW calcium hydroxyapatite:
Because I add the supplement at meal time to each meal, these are the little spoons I use for measuring the eggshell powder:
These are the tables indicating the amount of phosphorus and calcium in various foods and the supplements, and shows the total Ca ratio at various amounts of NOW Calcium Hydroxyapatite and eggshell powder.

I use 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder per ounce of meat, and 3/64 teaspoon of eggshell powder per ounce of (most) organs (obviously adjusted for the actual amount of meat/organs fed).

For the NOW calcium hydroxyapatite, I use about 3/4 of a capsule per ounce of meat, and about 1 capsule per ounce of (most) secreting organs (obviously adjusted for actual amounts fed).

But based on the tables, you can pick and choose your desired Ca ratio, and calculate how much you want to use based on how much you need to feed your kitty.

NOW calcium hydroxyapatite tables (click on the tables to make them bigger, or PM me if you'd like me to email you the spreadsheet):

NOW Ca-P ratios 1.JPG

• ldg
• Jul 31, 2012

NOW Ca-P ratios 2.JPG

• ldg
• Jul 31, 2012

NOW Ca-P ratios 3.JPG

• ldg
• Jul 31, 2012

NOW Ca-P ratios 4.JPG

• ldg
• Jul 31, 2012

Eggshell powder tables:

Eggshell Ca-P ratio 1.JPG

• ldg
• Jul 31, 2012

Eggshell Ca-P ratio 2.JPG

• ldg
• Jul 31, 2012

Hope this isn't overly confusing. :anon: If you have more questions, please ask!

 

[ldg]

Oh! :doh3: I just sprinkle the calcium supplement on the meal. They like both of them, and the amounts are small.

 

[wilson]

Yikes!!!  those charts are confusing. Im no university student, im middle aged, lol! so its a little overwhelming.

I live in Canada, so I guess I will have to search for those products here. Usually cant get stuff like that shipped to Canada.

The numbers need to be explained to me a bit. Not sure if my cats would eat it or not?

Thank you so much LDG for your extensive reply

 

[Willowy]

Easy answer: Call of the Wild, made by Wysong. Pretty sure they ship to Canada. And my cats like it. You use it to replace feeding organs and as a calcium supplement. I'm not sure how I would feel about using it solely long-term, but it's at least a good place to start.

 

[ldg]

sorry for the overkill!

Actually, I believe there is a distributor of MCHA in Canada. I'll ask the TCS member familiar with this to help out if she can. Some things from Amazon US ship to Canada. If you're interested in using the freeze dried bone, you can try ordering it and see what happens.


But basically, there are several ways to make feeding home made raw easy, and not have to worry about bones.

You're feeding two cats? How much do they weigh? Are you feeding them canned now? If so, how much?

My cats range in size from 7 pounds to 16 pounds. But most are 10 - 12 pounds, and they eat from 4 ounces to 4.5 ounces of raw food a day.


Option #1

If you don't want to worry about balancing the raw food with organs in the proper percentages, there is a supplement that balances just meat. It balances for the organs you would feed, and it provides the right amount of calcium for meat. I'm pretty sure there are Canadian members using it... though I don't think Wysong ships it to Canada. Maybe the US Amazon does? Some things can be shipped to Canada from the US Amazon, other things don't ship to Canada. If you're interested in the supplement, maybe you can call Wysong to find out if they know of a Canadian distributor? :dk: It does have things in it like wheat grass, kelp, and I don't remember what - but since the amount used is pretty small, most don't worry too much about that. You just add it to meat, and that's all you need to feed. It's made by Wysong, and it's called Call of the Wild. This is the supplement: http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php


Option #2

Eggshells. Eggshells are 39% calcium carbonate, a very "usable" source of elemental calcium. You can make your own! One large egg makes about one teaspoon of powder - all you need is a coffee grinder.

Procedure

If you see a lot of egg whites sticking to the shells, rinse them out.

I do not remove any remaining membrane because it has therapeutic value e.g. for arthritis.

Bake in the oven e.g. while pre-heating oven or after it's turned off after baking a pizza or something like that or at 300 degrees for 10 minutes. Obviously time will vary based on your oven, so adjust accordingly.

OR

Place eggshells in an open dish e.g. pie plate in a garden window or any south-facing (so it gets plenty of sun) window. Leave for a week or more until dry. You will know this when they are brittle and crumbly to the touch.

When they look dry enough to me I run through a coffee grinder for a few seconds. Depending on your grinder, you will need to stop and start a few times. Aim for the consistency of baking soda. Wait before opening or you'll end up with a cloud of powder.

http://www.holisticat.com/esp.html

So it'd be easy to find out quickly if they'll eat it or not.

If you feed your cats 1 ounce of raw meat per meal, you need to use 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder sprinkled on the meat. That is 1/4 of 1/8 of a teaspoon - a small amount! (That's why I use those special small measuring spoons. But I started just by eyeballing it until they arrived). But because it's a small amount, the cats don't really even notice it!


Option #3

Bone meal. Find a human grade bone meal supplement at a vitamin shop or health food store, or online, and tell us how much it lists for the amount of elemental calcium per serving and the amount of phosphorus per serving, and we can help you figure out how much you need to use.


Is that clearer? :cross:

 

[ldg]

Easy answer: Call of the Wild, made by Wysong. Pretty sure they ship to Canada. And my cats like it. You use it to replace feeding organs and as a calcium supplement. I'm not sure how I would feel about using it solely long-term, but it's at least a good place to start.

They don't.

 

[wilson]

sorry for the overkill!
Actually, I believe there is a distributor of MCHA in Canada. I'll ask the TCS member familiar with this to help out if she can. Some things from Amazon US ship to Canada. If you're interested in using the freeze dried bone, you can try ordering it and see what happens.

But basically, there are several ways to make feeding home made raw easy, and not have to worry about bones.

You're feeding two cats? How much do they weigh? Are you feeding them canned now? If so, how much?
My cats range in size from 7 pounds to 16 pounds. But most are 10 - 12 pounds, and they eat from 4 ounces to 4.5 ounces of raw food a day.
Option #1
If you don't want to worry about balancing the raw food with organs in the proper percentages, there is a supplement that balances just meat. It balances for the organs you would feed, and it provides the right amount of calcium for meat. I'm pretty sure there are Canadian members using it... though I don't think Wysong ships it to Canada. Maybe the US Amazon does? Some things can be shipped to Canada from the US Amazon, other things don't ship to Canada. If you're interested in the supplement, maybe you can call Wysong to find out if they know of a Canadian distributor?

It does have things in it like wheat grass, kelp, and I don't remember what - but since the amount used is pretty small, most don't worry too much about that. You just add it to meat, and that's all you need to feed.

It's made by Wysong, and it's called Call of the Wild. This is the supplement: http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php
Option #2
Eggshells. Eggshells are 39% calcium carbonate, a very "usable" source of elemental calcium. You can make your own! One large egg makes about one teaspoon of powder - all you need is a coffee grinder.
http://www.holisticat.com/esp.html
So it'd be easy to find out quickly if they'll eat it or not.

If you feed your cats 1 ounce of raw meat per meal, you need to use 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder sprinkled on the meat. That is 1/4 of 1/8 of a teaspoon - a small amount! (That's why I use those special small measuring spoons. But I started just by eyeballing it until they arrived). But because it's a small amount, the cats don't really even notice it!
Option #3
Bone meal. Find a human grade bone meal supplement at a vitamin shop or health food store, or online, and tell us how much it lists for the amount of elemental calcium per serving and the amount of phosphorus per serving, and we can help you figure out how much you need to use.
Is that clearer?

Wow you guys are amazing!! I think the easiest thing for me to do is find the bone meal at the health store. Im not sure I like the ingredients of the Call of the wild, it has a few things I dont like. Thanks anyhow. I will let you know when I find the bone meal, then I have to find some affordable organic meat. I really dont want to feed run of the mill grocery meat.  The odd bits I give to Wilson are not full meals they are just an addition to his wet food right now.   thanks for all your research for me LDG

 

[ldg]

Yep, fresh meat makes a great snack! You can feed up to 15% of his diet without worrying about it being balanced, so have fun experimenting!

The information we need from a bone meal supplement is the amount of elemental calcium and the amount of phosphorus per serving, and what the serving size is. That provides the information we need to figure out how much will be needed to balance the phosphorus in the meat.