Ragdoll Kitten - TICA registered - strange colored eyes - no minks listed on pedigree??

[rebekah65]

i bought this adorable seal bicolor ragdoll kitten from a breeder. his eyes looked perfectly blue in all photos i saw. i did not see the parents (because of us having to meet half way to make the transaction) i drove 4hrs to get him, but i noticed his eyes were a 'strange' color, not vivid solid blue like my older ragdoll, they looked silvery and had green and yellow hues . i drove so far and he was so beautiful, i asked about his eyes and was told his father was mink...didnt know what exactly that meant at the time. i wasnt going to null the deal over his eyes... he was adorable.

when i got home tho i looked at the pedigree she gave me...no cat in his line is registered as mink. his father, who she said was mink, is registered as a traditional blue eyed. i called TICA.....asking if minks are always denoted or do breeders neglect to state the cat is mink? i was told they TICA registers colors/cats based on whatever is filled out on papers. so the plot thickens! thoughts anyone??

here are pics

monster14.jpg

• rebekah65
• Nov 10, 2013

here they look pale blue

monster15.jpg

• rebekah65
• Nov 10, 2013

my kitten, here his eye color blends into the wheat basket

sibling.jpg

• rebekah65
• Nov 10, 2013

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my kittens sibling his eyes look pale blue w a bit of yellow thats hard to see well in photo (it comes across looking pale blue)

strangeeyes.jpg

• rebekah65
• Nov 10, 2013

another sibling w same strange pale eye color

ive read pale blue comes from poor breeding, but im not sure if these kittens eyes are simply pale blue since there are other colors mixed in them

minks have aqua eyes, IMO my kitten, nor the siblings, have aqua eyes

so what do you think is going on w this strange eye color that is alot like blue, but is not true blue, but it

isnt quite any other color either?

wondering it they are purebred, despite being TICA registered??

 

[nbrazil]

Join this forum (to follow) and ask your questions there. A number of breeders are members.

http://www.ragdollcatguide.com/forum/index.php

 

[maewkaew]

Blue eyes in pointed cats can come in a range of color.  I have seen not only various shades of blue from a light pearly blue to a deep cobalt or navy blue ,  but also I've seen  a kitten from  2 seal point parents who had eyes that were pale blue verging on aqua,   like this kitten.

 So I could not say for sure the cat is not pointed.  He may just have poor eye color.  

But what is weird is this breeder telling you the father is a mink,  when it says pointed on the papers.  so there is some dishonesty either in the papers or what she said.  What does the breeder say about this discrepancy?

 If you are considering breeding him, I would have a genetic test done to find out if he carries  the sepia (Burmese) gene.   

One pointed (cs) and one sepia ( cb)  =  a mink pattern.

Light eye color does not necessarily mean "poor breeding".  it may be someone used another cat for reasons other than stellar eye color -- like increasing genetic diversity,  avoiding some gene that is a health risk,  selecting for good head shape,  body type,  good coat color and pattern,  etc.   Deep blue eye color can be difficult to set. and often kittens take after the parent with paler eyes.

I do think that as a novice breeder, you should not be breeding minks because you will risk being seen as someone who is in it for the wrong reasons,  you will be associated with the breeders who are pumping out kittens just for money motives, and selling minks as "rare" and ultra-desirable ( when the reason they are less common is because it is against the breed standard and came from a cross to Ragamuffins.) 

So you would have a problem.

Unfortunately,  inexperienced breeders get tricked into buying non-standard Ragdolls for breeding and they don't want to start over,  so they start in repeating the same spin about it being rare and ultra desirable and about mink being in Ragdolls all along. 

BTW,  the  kitten I mentioned came from a  dam with very deep cobalt blue eyes  and a sire with much paler blue eyes.  The sire's own mother was an import from Thailand and they usually do have pale blue eyes. (The deep blue Siamese eyes came from selective breeding in the West.    it wasn't originally in the cats from Siam.)   but the value of increasing the gene pool  from the original source, certainly overruled a cosmetic issue of the depth of blue eye color. 

and to be honest,  that kitten was so good in other areas of conformation that my friend kept her as a breeder.   Bred to a male with very good eye color ( whose own mother had excellent eye color and many generations of  breeding for deep blue eye color behind her) ,  they  had kittens with exceptionally nice blue eye color.  From her first litter,  4 out of 5 have been shown and are titled : one of her sons is a Supreme Grand Champion Alter and a daughter is a Quadruple Grand Champion;  I think another daughter is a Grand Champion  and another boy is a Grand Champion Alter.   It was interesting that the kittens got better eye color than the parents.   but it's true both grandmothers had very deep blue eyes.

 

[maewkaew]

PS   : I second NBrazil's suggestion, you can find out a lot from that Ragdoll Cat Guide about TICA registration policies, how mink got into Ragdolls, etc.  and get other good advice.

re the genetic testing,   here is a link to the info for the color test at the Veterinary Genetics Lab associated with University of California at Davis.  It is $40 for a single test that would make sure the kitten is definitely pointed as the Ragdoll is supposed to be.

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorcat.php

There is also a test for HCM in Ragdolls .http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/cat/HCM.php

   You need to discuss with some responsible breeders what else should be done as far as scans to avoid heart problems..    but you can ask about that on that same place that NBrazil linked.

 Here is a link that explains about where Mink came from in Ragdolls.   http://www.eiserblew.co.uk/ragamuffin.htm

 

[rebekah65]

I am not a breeder, my kitten is neutered. I noticed his eye color was odd....sometimes it looks blue, other times, silver w honey wheat color...almost ghostly white. and since he came w TICA papers...and none of his lines state mink...i am asking any who is knowledgable about ragdolls, their opinions....

 

[maewkaew]

rebekah,   I'm sorry I somehow got the wrong idea that you were wanting to breed this cat!    I have NO clue what gave me that notion;   I think I was reminded of another question  ( on a Ragdoll forum)  in which the person asking was starting out in breeding. 

I do know a bit about Ragdolls, and I know quite a lot more about Siamese, which is where the gene for the pointed pattern  came from .The same gene that makes the eyes be SOME shade of blue.   Then it's a bunch of little unidentified polygenes that influence exactly what shade of blue.

Your super cute kitten  looks like he IS a Seal Bicolor ,  a pointed cat.  and thus he has eyes that are a shade of blue   but  he just didn't end up getting what is considered the ideal eye color      The eye color  would prevent him being a very successful show cat but actually it is kind of  cool looking.  and sure would not prevent him being a wonderful pet.

Blue eye color can range from a  pearly whitish blue  to extremely deep navy blue. Some lines do tend to have deeper eye color than others.   but sometimes a kitten can have eyes turn out noticeably deeper or paler than his parents.    ( But if the whole litter had eyes like this, it is very likely at least one of the parents had pale eyes.   )

 Very light blue eyes do sometimes take on a silvery or wheatish tone.    and I wonder if  they sometimes sort of reflect some color of their surroundings .I have seen that odd wheatish blue color in some Himalayans (pointed Persians -- colorpoint cats (cs/cs), not mink (cb/cs).  It sometimes looks pale blue.  sometimes has tones like  very pale wheat or grey.    The reason is that they have more pigment particles in the eye.     I know that sounds strange --  that paler blue eye color is from MORE pigment.    Here is an interesting article on blue eyed cats that might help to explain.     Blue Eyes - From Pale to Deep

It is normal that his eyes may have looked darker when he was younger since all kittens are born with dark blue eyes.

 ????  There still does remain a mystery about the breeder telling you the father was a mink when the papers say he is pointed.   I don't really know what to make of that.   

Not only is it odd that she would contradict  the papers -- or admit she lied on the papers? --  but it does not even make sense to say that a pointed kitten's eye color is paler because his father was a mink.    If the father WAS a mink, if bred to a pointed queen, they could have either pointed or mink kittens .( If he gives a "cs" they will be pointed;  if he gives a "cb" they will be mink.)    But him being a mink should not change the depth of the eye color or make the pointed kittens eyes more like a mink.

 

[rebekah65]

monsternaughty.jpg

• rebekah65
• Nov 12, 2013

here is my kitten when he was still w breeder..his eyes were a deeper blue, like u said

eyes WERE more blue then

monsterbig.jpg

• rebekah65
• Nov 12, 2013

this is him now at 16wks  ...eyes are a different color every time i look at him, lol

to me, he is so cute....and i love him nomatter what. gl

i am glad to hear that youve seen/heard of this eye color ....i always look at ragdolls to see if i can find one w his eyes...and i cant. i have found some 'solid' color ragdolls (not what i consider ragdoll at all) that have the odd ghost eyes...but obviously, he is not a solid color cat! i hope he gets fluffy...thats another thing i dont think you can tell by kittens...one ragdoll kitten can look scrawny, skinny, and have a thin, sparse coat...and it grows into a giant fluffball...ive also seen big coated kittens grow into shorter coated cats. and ive seen ragdolls that look lanky and awkward until they reach about 3, then suddenly poof...theyre giant fluffballs.lol

 

[rebekah65]

ps, i was a little confused that u thought i was a breeder! lol.

 

[maewkaew]

 Looking at his photos,  I  definitely think his color / pattern on his papers is correct. 

I have seen some Ragdolls ( in the standard colors) with eyes like that,   and as I mentioned  I have seen it in quite a few Himalayans ( pointed Persians).   One can see a great variety of Himi eye color in this  Himalayan Photo Gallery   - and those are mostly show cats!    In the Himalayans it has been harder to breed deep blue eyes consistently because of all the copper eyed Persian ancestry.  

  In the Ragdolls you are very unlikely to see show cats with such eye color.  But you might see a few pet Ragdolls with similar eyes on that other site that was linked earlier in the thread.  

 Pointed cats didn't originally usually have deep blue eyes in Siam  (Thailand) --  that came from selective breeding in the West.   Back in the 1800s ,  Siamese cat eyes were described as "pearly" blue.   which sounds like it meant a light shade.  Then they gradually bred them to have deeper blue eye color.

Very pale eyes CAN mean the cat came from several generations that were not bred to a standard (or with much thought at all beyond producing kittens to sell from whatever Ragdolls they can get ),  by a breeder who does not show and couldn't get any show quality cats  to breed.   

But it could be for a better reason, like they decided to choose a cat for breeding because of other good traits in conformation or health or temperament,  even though the eye color was not great,  and will then just   try to improve the eye color over the next generations.  

 You're right,   you can't necessarily tell the coat length or fullness until they get their adult coat ... plus there can be some seasonal variation.

  A lot of judges seem to prefer the somewhat shorter silky single coats;  they don't want them to have huge cottony coats like Persians.   

Anyway he is just cute as they come!    He has a very sweet face.