Porcupine Cats

[kristenfields]

Hi everyone,

This is my first time in the forum and I need some help with my two male cats. It's a bit of a long story but I want to make sure you have all the details.

We got Oskar at 8 weeks old- definitely weren't as good as we should have been about aggressive play with hands/etc but he's always been a good cat. About 6 months into having him it was obvious that he was interested in making friends and had successful interactions with other cats. He was also very playful and constantly wanted attention- so we got him a slightly younger and very sweet/also playful cat named Orville.

The introduction process went well- we made a couple mistakes, but always started over and were able to fully integrate them in about a week and a half and they have been best buddies ever since. They snuggled and ate near each other, wrestled and played and were both equally affectionate to me and my husband.

Then came Christmas last year- they had been left before when we've gone on vacation but our normal cat sitter was no longer available, and we were in a pinch. We hired a sweet neighbor girl who had done some pet sitting in the past- after all we had sweet, comfortable boys.

Well, we get a call the day we drive down to Texas from a hysterical cat sitter. Something happened that spooked Oskar and he went after Orville, cornering him in the bedroom. In her novice, she made the situation much much much worse in ways that we don't even know for sure. I know that Oskar cornered her, wouldn't let her move and yowled at her for an hour. She hid from him and couldn't get out of the apartment.

We called some emergency contacts who graciously drove down and was able to successfully separate the boys, and they remained that way while we were gone. A few times though, Oskar opened the door to "free" his brother.

We got home and cleaned up the mess or so we thought. We took some time to re-introduce them, only having a small yowl incident happen. Things seemed back to normal. Until about three weeks ago (four months later).

I get home from work and go to fill the food bowl, and Oskar comes charging at me. Wide-eyed, and puts his paws on my leg and starts to yowl/scream. I freeze and in moments Orville walks behind him and the fight starts.

This is the first time they've ever made contact in a fight and it was rough. Eventually, Oskar cornered Orville under the bed and ran back out so we were able to shut the door. We separated them for the night. But before that Oskar went all out on me. Anytime I moved he slapped or bit at my ankles and yowled at me. I was terrified. He'd never done this to me before.

The next three days all held some of the same forms of aggression towards me for completely random circumstances. I was eating food at the coffee table just like always and he came over and was acting friendly and then caught a sniff and yowled again, attacking me.

Same in the bathroom, scooping the litter. This time he grabbed me by the leg and bit me.

Somewhere after a few days and me walking on egg shells he calmed down and we no longer had an incident. Until Monday (a full week without major issues).

Same story, normal day, and Oskar starts getting on edge and running up to Orville. Orville rubs his face on him as if to say " It's just me, don't worry". And then something happens and they fight again. Heavy contact, no relent. Orville gets a scratched up nose.

We seperate again, and within hours they are playing paws under the door and chatting all night like old friends. We let them have some through a partially opened door time and they're relaxed and sweet. But now Orville has learned. He's standing up for himself, and we have more problems. We let them out after succesful short visits and supervised. Oskar came up behind orville and orville gave him a little warning his and soft swat and Oskar was p*****d. We were able to step in with the help of some spray water that broke Oskars focus and let Orville get away.

We did ANOTHER seperation. This time heavy on short between the door meetings with lots of treats and meal times on each side of the door. No hissing, playing under the door, begging to see each other, talking. So we do another short intro last night. Oskar walks into the kitchen and I'm in there with him, getting ready to get their food. Orville comes around the corner as Oskar jumps down- the look at each other and Orville hisses this time and won't back down and of course, another fight breaks out. Too fast to stop it.

I don't know what to do. We have taken Oskar to the vet multiple times, we have feliway and calming spray. We are seperating them for long periods but then they are playing and begging to be friends again. But as soon as they are something happens. We are SO stressed and trying to follow all of the advice but because of the friendliness between the two between incidents we don't know whats going on. Even the vet was baffled. We have implimented feliway and have made sure they have plenty of toys/food/water/litter to go around.

I'm at my wits end. We both work full time and I'm so worried that we are not the right family for them anymore. We've spent so much money and time trying to help them and nothing is working. Has anyone had cats like my "porcupines" who can't be apart but can't be together?

 

[ArtNJ]

I think the (maybe only?) logical thing left to try is OTC calming products other than Felliway, whcih doesn't seem to do anything for some cats. Hopefully one of the knowledgeable folks will pop in, if not, search for "calming" in this forum. If that doesn't work, prescription medication still might.

It can get kind of dangerous where the non-aggressive non-instigator cat gets ticked off and decides to fight back. I had a cat get bitten twice that way. You don't hear about a lot of bites or other real injuries between housemates on this forum, its rare to have more than light scratches I guess, but it can happen.

 

[kristenfields]

I think the (maybe only?) logical thing left to try is OTC calming products other than Felliway, whcih doesn't seem to do anything for some cats. Hopefully one of the knowledgeable folks will pop in, if not, search for "calming" in this forum. If that doesn't work, prescription medication still might.

Yeah, the vet told us to give feliway and current modification two months (we've only had it going for about a week). We also only had one in our main room. We're in a smallish apartment, but we went ahead and bought a second one for the bedroom where we keep one of them at a time. It's just so hard because you can tell they want to work it out. There's just something that's standing in the way.

We do think that outdoor noises are making Oskar more upset than usual. We are planning on moving in a few months- so worst comes to worst we keep them mostly separated for the time being until we move. We filed a noise complaint last night, so I'm hoping that helps with people being more considerate. It's just hard not to feel depressed about these guys.

 

[Tobermory]

I don’t know if the vet mentioned it, but there are two kinds of Feliway for diffusers. The original or “Classic” is for anxiety and stress. The other, labeled “Multicat,” is for aggression. It sounds as if you should be using the Multicat...or even both. I know some people have found that their cats are immune to it, but it has really worked for mine. I’ve been using both.

I adopted a new cat a few months and the Classic seems to have reduced her anxiety. Where I noticed a big difference, though, was a couple of days after I plugged in the Multicat. Lily, one of the two cats I had already, hated the newcomer. Growling, hissing, charging, intimidating Mocha, the newbie. All of that stopped except for the occasional hiss if Mocha gets in her way.

And I agree with ArtNJ. There are other calming products on the market if Feliway doesn’t work for the O’s. You can find several mentions of alternatives on the forum that people have used with success.

 

[kristenfields]

I don’t know if the vet mentioned it, but there are two kinds of Feliway for diffusers. The original or “Classic” is for anxiety and stress. The other, labeled “Multicat,” is for aggression. It sounds as if you should be using the Multicat...or even both. I know some people have found that their cats are immune to it, but it has really worked for mine. I’ve been using both.

I adopted a new cat a few months and the Classic seems to have reduced her anxiety. Where I noticed a big difference, though, was a couple of days after I plugged in the Multicat. Lily, one of the two cats I had already, hated the newcomer. Growling, hissing, charging, intimidating Mocha, the newbie. All of that stopped except for the occasional hiss if Mocha gets in her way.

And I agree with ArtNJ. There are other calming products on the market if Feliway doesn’t work for the O’s. You can find several mentions of alternatives on the forum that people have used with success.

Yep, we are using multi-cat! I am going to pick up some calming treats, the vet said that may be helpful and it might just need to be a combo. It's good to hear all of this. <3

 

[Tobermory]

Yep, we are using multi-cat! I am going to pick up some calming treats, the vet said that may be helpful and it might just need to be a combo. It's good to hear all of this. <3

I think you’re right. It often takes more than one strategy or a combo of two or more to find something that works. I’m also using an essential oil blend called Calm-a-Mile, formulated by a vet for pets. My holistic vet recommended it. Worth a try and if nothing else, Lily smells good.

In addition to the noise, is it possible that your guys can see other cats from their windows? That can certainly trigger aggression toward each other.

 

[kristenfields]

I think you’re right. It often takes more than one strategy or a combo of two or more to find something that works. I’m also using an essential oil blend called Calm-a-Mile, formulated by a vet for pets. My holistic vet recommended it. Worth a try and if nothing else, Lily smells good.

In addition to the noise, is it possible that your guys can see other cats from their windows? That can certainly trigger aggression toward each other.

I don't think it's as likely, but the vet did bring up that even if there is one they don't see who is marking outside it could be affecting Oskar. We are on a 2nd floor, so it wouldn't be as easy, and our apartment is definitely not well insulated. So a smell could easily drift through a window or door even closed.

 

[Summercats]

Hi,
Just to check are they both neutered?

 

[Tobermory]

One last thing that occurred to me: Years ago, my male cat, Max, suddenly started after Iris, one of my other kitties. They had always been friends. And this was serious stuff. I thought he was going to kill her. He also went after me and opened up a serious gash on my leg. It was scary. We kept them separated for three months and used Feliway. Max also started spraying during that time. I think he was picking up on my stress. My father was dying and I was making 600-mile round trips almost weekly to be with him. The time Max attacked me, I had just walked in the door from one of these trips. After my father passed away and life calmed down, Max did, too. And he was a perfect angel for the next nine years when he became a true angel at the age of 20.

 

[kristenfields]

Hi,
Just to check are they both neutered?

Yes, they are both nuetered, and NOT declawed.

 

[kristenfields]

One last thing that occurred to me: Years ago, my male cat, Max, suddenly started after Iris, one of my other kitties. They had always been friends. And this was serious stuff. I thought he was going to kill her. He also went after me and opened up a serious gash on my leg. It was scary. We kept them separated for three months and used Feliway. Max also started spraying during that time. I think he was picking up on my stress. My father was dying and I was making 600-mile round trips almost weekly to be with him. The time Max attacked me, I had just walked in the door from one of these trips. After my father passed away and life calmed down, Max did, too. And he was a perfect angel for the next nine years when he became a true angel at the age of 20.

Yeah, it's like that. Like a switch flips in his brain that h can't stop. And it's so fast. There's very little warning. Orville hisses once and it's over. And it's not a chase off it's a full-fledged attack. Like he cornered him under and chair and just went at him. It was bad. This last time not as much contact was made but it was still very obvious Oskars intent.

We definitely do have stressful lives sometimes, and it's a busy season. I did work from home for a while and that ended recently, too. So I know that could be a contributing factor, but I also went to work last year (and those hours were WAY longer) and they were totally fine. I think it's just a toxic cocktail of everything.

To top it all off we are going out of town in two weeks. This time we are keeping them 100% separated while we are gone and are paying extra to have a (well seasoned) cat sitter in the morning and at night so they both get a lot of attention twice a day. But I'm feeling anxiety about that of course just because it feels like an interruption to the intervention.

The only other option would be to board them, which we agreed would be much more stressful and possibly cause more problems. Sigh.

 

[kristenfields]

It's just so hard because they are begging to be together and play. If I open the door a wedge they come right up to each other, sniff, and gently paw- no hissing. They'll even chirp at each other. Like nothing happened. That's the most confusing part. Because it seems like they're completely fine and then it just goes to poop so fast.

 

[ArtNJ]

Whats going on outside? You mentioned it being noisier than usual?

Big construction project doesn't seem to bother my two much, but its loud enough to human ears I've often wondered what it sounds like to them.

 

[kristenfields]

Whats going on outside? You mentioned it being noisier than usual?

Big construction project doesn't seem to bother my two much, but its loud enough to human ears I've often wondered what it sounds like to them.

Noisy neighbors mostly. We have a window that leads into the breezeway so we can hear EVERYTHING- but it's been particularly bad with some new neighbors. People have been slamming doors and yelling, too. I actually sent an email to my landlord this morning about it and she left a note for everyone to be more mindful.

I have a weird sneaking suspicion that if we moved this would all stop or at the very least get better.

When my friends came and took over from the other cat sitter, they mentioned that Oskar stood at the door and anytime she talked in the hallway would start to growl or yell. So in some ways it feels like PTSD from that.

It's just all so frustrating because there's nothing I can do about people being crazy outside.

We have considered giving him a treat when it's particularly loud outside, but it's hard if we're not home or it stops before we have an opportunity to treat him.

 

[Willowy]

It may be time to go to prescription drugs, such as Prozac.

 

[kristenfields]

It may be time to go to prescription drugs, such as Prozac.

The vet said he wants us to do two months with Feliway and behavior mods before prescribing Prozac. So that's just not in the cards right now.

 

[kristenfields]

Also- with going out of town, I think I'd want to wait until we came back from vacation to start any new regime, especially if he reacts negatively to it.

 

[Princess Softpaws]

Noisy neighbors mostly. We have a window that leads into the breezeway so we can hear EVERYTHING- but it's been particularly bad with some new neighbors. People have been slamming doors and yelling, too. I actually sent an email to my landlord this morning about it and she left a note for everyone to be more mindful.

I have a weird sneaking suspicion that if we moved this would all stop or at the very least get better.

When my friends came and took over from the other cat sitter, they mentioned that Oskar stood at the door and anytime she talked in the hallway would start to growl or yell. So in some ways it feels like PTSD from that.

It's just all so frustrating because there's nothing I can do about people being crazy outside.

We have considered giving him a treat when it's particularly loud outside, but it's hard if we're not home or it stops before we have an opportunity to treat him.

I think you're onto something with the growling at the door when your friend was talking to a neighbor in the hall. It may be that Oskar is hearing new voices and feels threatened there are strangers invading his territory. It could be misplaced aggression. We had 2 kitties and lived in a neighborhood that had a lot of free-roaming cats. They would come through the yard and sometimes sit at the windows, which would cause our cats to fight. The female would start growling then the male would attack her. We moved and it stopped. You might want to try leaving a radio or TV on when you're gone to diffuse the other sounds.