Help for a curious vegetarian

[luvmy4]

I have been reading numerous posts about feeding raw to cats with urinary/ bladder issues and for the best general health and have some questions about commercial options.

I have been a vegetarian for over 17 years and I know that I could not explore options that would require me to prepare or grind raw meals. I love my cats but just can't imagine myself going to a butcher and preparing these meals. lol. My partner is also a long time veg and I know he wouldn't feel comfortable doing that either. I am interested in learning more about commercial freeze dried or frozen formulas. 

The only two brands that I really know of are Stella & Chewys or Instinct. The S&C is formulated for cats and is considered a complete food and the Instinct is not, since it's for either cats or dogs? This is at least what I am assuming from my reading. The S&C also did not contain veggies and fruits like the Instinct.

I am also trying to figure out the cost to see if it is doable for our household, or at least Calvin. The S&C website says that for his weight (14.5 lbs) he should eat 1 cup per day. I could not find out if that is for frozen or freeze dried, and then is it re-hydrated or dry in the measured cup? Approx. how many nuggets is that?

What other brand options exist? I prefer a complete formula that doesn't require supplements.

I am still waiting to hear what type of bladder stones Calvin had removed. I want to be able to discuss all dietary options with my vet for preventative care. I would need his approval to proceed. It seems like it would cost about the same per month as Rx canned food, so I am wanting to do some research. I tried researching the forums but couldn't distinguish if some of the other brands mentioned were frozen, dried, or mixed parts. lol. Sorry, I am seriously ignorant when it comes to meat.  

I would also love to hear about any other guardians who have feed a raw diet to their cats with stones/ urinary issues, and of course if any veggies are feeding raw to their cats.

Thanks in advance

 

[Willowy]

I'm not a real vegetarian, because I will eat meat at restaurants or other people's houses, but I am squeamy about meat and don't prepare it for myself. And my cats don't get all raw food. But we do have several vegetarian and even vegan members who feed their cats a fully raw diet so I'm sure you'll hear from them! I have managed to just shut off my brain to prepare the meat so I can handle it.

Anyway, freeze-dried raw is extremely expensive. Even allowing for rehydration and all, and of course different brands have different prices, it's still about $15 a pound! It may be an option for you---I don't know your budget---but just saying. Nature's Variety instinct IS complete and balanced for cats as well as dogs, but it does have about 5% veggie content. Up to you (and your cat!) whether this is acceptable. There are quite a few other brands available other than those 2, although you may have to order online.

Would frozen raw be an option? Already prepared, doesn't look like animal parts, but might be a little bloody/juicy? There are a lot of different options that way, shipping may not be cheap but it's still cheaper than a steady diet of freeze-dried foods.

ETA: Oops! I saw that you are interested in frozen raw as well. I should read more carefully! :tongue2:

Are you willing to let it thaw, mix the supplement in, and then repackage and re-freeze? If so, www.hare-today.com and www.mypetcarnivore.com are good options (Hare Today sells the supplement on their site, I don't think MPC does so you'd have to find a different source).

Oh, here, I always forget about this thread. Everything in one place! http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

 

[ldg]

Several vegans transitioned to raw this past year. Search for threads and posts by Wolcar to see her experiences. I'll think of others. She went prey model raw! Her first trip to the butcher, she accidentally came home with beef thinking she'd bought turkey. She purchased duck hearts from Hare Today, and they were in the freezer for a couple of months before she got up the nerve to feed them, if I remember correctly.

So compared to that, frozen raw shouldn't be TOO difficult to manage. :heart2:

 

[vball91]

I feed partially raw (am working on getting my cat to eat full raw). I started this transition after my cat had a case of FLUTD in early Dec. 2012 and then was really sick from something else in late Dec. I researched A LOT and found out I was feeding her terrible, species-inappropriate food.

Right now, I feed a combo of homemade raw and cooked, freeze-dried raw (mostly S&C but about to try Feline Natural as well) and high quality canned. There are a few different freeze-dried raw options. These are very convenient. For the S&C's, a feeding portion is about 10 nuggets, but my cat who is little only eats 5-6 nuggets at a time, so portion size is variable.

For raw, Nature's Variety seems to be the most readily available. It doesn't seem to be hugely popular with most cats. It also a minor 5% fruits and veggies which are unnecessary and a somewhat high bone content. If you can find Rad Cat, it is a great food that is all meat with supplements to make it complete that most cats seem to love. There are a few other commercial raw options. I've tried Vital Essentials, but my cat isn't a big fan, but she's very picky so she's not the best gauge.

I know you're still waiting to hear what type of stones were removed. Rx foods will only help if they were struvite crystals. If they were calcium oxalate, then surgery was the only way to deal with them. How Rx foods work is that they have an added urine acidifier (methionine) which targets an ideal urine pH. Struvite crystals usually form when the urine is too alkaline (high pH) and concentrated. So the goal is to keep urine pH around 6.5 and increase water intake to keep urine more dilute which is not as favorable an environment for struvites to develop.

A raw diet helps because it naturally acidifies the urine and increases water intake. An all canned diet of high quality meat only varieties can also be used. You can also choose to add methionine to any diet as well although you must monitor urine pH at home.

A lot of vets will say that an Rx food is necessary for a cat who has had a case of FLUTD, but that is not the case every time. That's not to say that the Rx food doesn't have its place, but I would only feed it as a last resort. If you look at the ingredients of those foods, it's clear that it's not a species-appropriate food. The fact that there are dry RX foods and vets who actually recommend them says a lot about the lack of knowledge about feline nutritional needs. If you are not familiar with catinfo.org, I would encourage you to take a look. Written by a vet, it has a lot of good info.

Oh, and I know there are vegetarian members on here who raw feed their cats, so hopefully they will chime in here.

 

[luvmy4]

I'm not a real vegetarian, because I will eat meat at restaurants or other people's houses, but I am squeamy about meat and don't prepare it for myself. And my cats don't get all raw food. But we do have several vegetarian and even vegan members who feed their cats a fully raw diet so I'm sure you'll hear from them! I have managed to just shut off my brain to prepare the meat so I can handle it.

Anyway, freeze-dried raw is extremely expensive. Even allowing for rehydration and all, and of course different brands have different prices, it's still about $15 a pound!

It may be an option for you---I don't know your budget---but just saying. Nature's Variety instinct IS complete and balanced for cats as well as dogs, but it does have about 5% veggie content. Up to you (and your cat!) whether this is acceptable. There are quite a few other brands available other than those 2, although you may have to order online.

Would frozen raw be an option? Already prepared, doesn't look like animal parts, but might be a little bloody/juicy? There are a lot of different options that way, shipping may not be cheap but it's still cheaper than a steady diet of freeze-dried foods.

ETA: Oops! I saw that you are interested in frozen raw as well. I should read more carefully!

Are you willing to let it thaw, mix the supplement in, and then repackage and re-freeze? If so, www.hare-today.com and www.mypetcarnivore.com are good options (Hare Today sells the supplement on their site, I don't think MPC does so you'd have to find a different source).

Oh, here, I always forget about this thread. Everything in one place! http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

I don't know much about supplements either, all I know at this points is that they are something called premixes, but other than that I am clueless.  I also don't know anything about frozen, but as I said I am interesting in finding out about my options. I feel like I can handle it if it comes out of a bag/ box I might be able to handle it. I will see if I can find some videos on mixing in those supplements to see if I could do that. lol. Thank you for the links I am definitely going to check them out.

I was guessing that freeze dried would be around $2.50 a day if my estimates are correct about the feeding amount. That wouldn't cost much more than the rx cans from the vet. It would be expensive for all 4 to do freeze dried for all meals, but doable for Calvin. Again I could be completely off with my estimates as I haven't purchased a bag to see how much he would eat. If feeding frozen would be cheaper, I will certainly give it a thorough thought. Sorry like I said I am really ignorant about meat. I went veg as a child and therefore have never bought or prepared meat in any way. I know that to most people it sounds kind of crazy, so thanks for being understanding and patient. 

 

[luvmy4]

Several vegans transitioned to raw this past year. Search for threads and posts by Wolcar to see her experiences. I'll think of others.

She went prey model raw!

Her first trip to the butcher, she accidentally came home with beef thinking she'd bought turkey. She purchased duck hearts from Hare Today, and they were in the freezer for a couple of months before she got up the nerve to feed them, if I remember correctly.

So compared to that, frozen raw shouldn't be TOO difficult to manage.

Thank you! I will look for her posts. I feel like I might need to ease into these. lol. I definitely want to know my options and I am really trying to keep an open mind. 

 

[luvmy4]

I feed partially raw (am working on getting my cat to eat full raw). I started this transition after my cat had a case of FLUTD in early Dec. 2012 and then was really sick from something else in late Dec. I researched A LOT and found out I was feeding her terrible, species-inappropriate food.

Right now, I feed a combo of homemade raw and cooked, freeze-dried raw (mostly S&C but about to try Feline Natural as well) and high quality canned. There are a few different freeze-dried raw options. These are very convenient. For the S&C's, a feeding portion is about 10 nuggets, but my cat who is little only eats 5-6 nuggets at a time, so portion size is variable.

For raw, Nature's Variety seems to be the most readily available. It doesn't seem to be hugely popular with most cats. It also a minor 5% fruits and veggies which are unnecessary and a somewhat high bone content. If you can find Rad Cat, it is a great food that is all meat with supplements to make it complete that most cats seem to love. There are a few other commercial raw options. I've tried Vital Essentials, but my cat isn't a big fan, but she's very picky so she's not the best gauge.

I know you're still waiting to hear what type of stones were removed. Rx foods will only help if they were struvite crystals. If they were calcium oxalate, then surgery was the only way to deal with them. How Rx foods work is that they have an added urine acidifier (methionine) which targets an ideal urine pH. Struvite crystals usually form when the urine is too alkaline (high pH) and concentrated. So the goal is to keep urine pH around 6.5 and increase water intake to keep urine more dilute which is not as favorable an environment for struvites to develop.

A raw diet helps because it naturally acidifies the urine and increases water intake. An all canned diet of high quality meat only varieties can also be used. You can also choose to add methionine to any diet as well although you must monitor urine pH at home.

A lot of vets will say that an Rx food is necessary for a cat who has had a case of FLUTD, but that is not the case every time. That's not to say that the Rx food doesn't have its place, but I would only feed it as a last resort. If you look at the ingredients of those foods, it's clear that it's not a species-appropriate food. The fact that there are dry RX foods and vets who actually recommend them says a lot about the lack of knowledge about feline nutritional needs. If you are not familiar with catinfo.org, I would encourage you to take a look. Written by a vet, it has a lot of good info.

Oh, and I know there are vegetarian members on here who raw feed their cats, so hopefully they will chime in here.

Thank you that was very informative. I will check out the Rad Cat and Vital Essentials. I have read through catinfo.org and did find a lot of useful information. I had switched Calvin to an all canned diet when I moved in, as that is what my other cats eat. Unfortunately, he only fully switched to canned about 6 weeks ago and had eaten exclusively dry food previously. He will eat canned, but won't touch some of the higher end brands yet. He will eat Blue Buffalo Wilderness, any flavor, and Merrick Thanksgiving flavor. Calvin is by far the pickiest eater in the house. He will of course eat Friskies and Fancy Feast. Hey, its a work in progress. lol. I am guessing by the number of stones removed that he had probably been developing issues that went unnoticed for awhile and they didn't just develop over those 5 weeks before I took him to the vet. I did order pH strips to start testing his urine once I know what his lab results are, and will work on getting close to him like the video on catinfo.org while he is in the box. 

 

[vball91]

I would like to add that there is hope for picky eaters. Mine was also addicted to Friskies and Fancy Feast. She would not eat the better canned foods or raw at first, but persistence and toppers paid off. She still won't eat all raw, but everything she does eat now I am mostly happy with. Sometimes I had to give her a new food many times before she would taste it. Sometimes it took the use of heavy toppers, but generally once she tasted something and disovered it wasn't poison, she was willing to eat it again.

 

[betsygee]

I appreciate this thread!  My first kitty had kidney disease and a raw diet was suggested by a holistic vet for her.  But she was old, had never eaten like that before, and it just turned my stomach to deal with raw meat.  I've been a vegetarian for 35 years!  It didn't work for either my kitty or me.  That was several years ago and she's passed on.  But I will be looking at all the things you've all mentioned in this thread--the new options might work for my current kitties and keep them healthy longer.  :-)

 

[peaches08]

You know, you have a point about crystals probably not developing in just 5 weeks. I wonder if no grain/veggies canned food would be just as good or better than prescription canned? Stuff like Fancy Feast classics and Friskies pate canned...? Of course you could still do the raw, but maybe stretch the budget a bit better.

 

[luvmy4]

You know, you have a point about crystals probably not developing in just 5 weeks. I wonder if no grain/veggies canned food would be just as good or better than prescription canned? Stuff like Fancy Feast classics and Friskies pate canned...? Of course you could still do the raw, but maybe stretch the budget a bit better.

I know that canned is better than dry. I switched my partners cats to wet because I can't have any dry food around Dax as he will throw it up. My two seniors always got a mix of dry and wet until about 5 years ago, but Dax was always throwing unchewed dry up. The vet couldn't find any medical issues. I tried different brands, ingredients, etc. for a couple years before I noticed he never puked up his wet meals and just completely cut out the dry. I wasn't trying to treat any urinary problems by switching them, just making sure Dax didn't have issues again.

 I don't know if the pate FF or Friskies is just as good as the rx stuff, but the ingredients are comparable if it is just for maintenance and not to dissolve crystals like vball91 said. It is always well received so the cats do all get the cheaper brands with high end also in the rotation. Cali eats almost exclusively grain free wet, as that girl will eat just about anything I put in front of her. lol. So she always gets the good stuff. Calvin not so much. 

 I really don't think that the switch in diet would have caused over 20 stones in 5 weeks, but I don't yet know if it is enough to prevent them either. 

 

[Willowy]

Hmm, Stella & Chewy's comes in "single-serve" .8 oz size packets, and they say that's equivalent to a 3-oz can. And most cats would eat two 3-oz cans a day. So that would mean that a 12-oz package would have about 15 servings, last about a week, about $25 for a package. . .I'm coming up with about $3.57 a day but I don't know if their recommendations are realistic or not (usually the manufacturer's recommendations are too much but raw companies may have a better handle on what amount is appropriate). I once figured out that I could feed Hare Today meats exclusively for about $1.20 per cat per day including supplements. So, yeah, frozen would certainly be cheaper, although maybe the pricier brands like RadCat would close the gap a little.


But. . .the biggest problem might be getting him to eat the raw food! Most cats (IME) really love the freeze-dreid stuff, but some won't touch fresh raw meat. So it could end up coming down to what he'll eat.

I have heard that Friskies Special Diet canned is about as good as the Rx stuff. Ingredients do look comparable.

 

[vball91]

The S&C's feeding recommendation is high. There is no way my cat could eat the whole single-serve packet in one sitting. I usually got about 3 servings out of those. I also use it as a topper so I'm not exact about portion sizes for the S&C's, but I know I got at least 2. Of course, this is for my little 7lb cat.

Also, I have been able to get the S&C's cheaper than retail. The small packets are usually buy 2 get 1 free at my local store, and recently, I got the big bags for under $18 at doggiefood.com. S&C's is on the more expensive side, but I really like it and my cat will consistently eat it. I do wish they had non-poultry/fish flavors. Why do dogs always seem to get more variety?

 

[luvmy4]

Hmm, Stella & Chewy's comes in "single-serve" .8 oz size packets, and they say that's equivalent to a 3-oz can. And most cats would eat two 3-oz cans a day. So that would mean that a 12-oz package would have about 15 servings, last about a week, about $25 for a package. . .I'm coming up with about $3.57 a day but I don't know if their recommendations are realistic or not (usually the manufacturer's recommendations are too much but raw companies may have a better handle on what amount is appropriate). I once figured out that I could feed Hare Today meats exclusively for about $1.20 per cat per day including supplements. So, yeah, frozen would certainly be cheaper, although maybe the pricier brands like RadCat would close the gap a little.


But. . .the biggest problem might be getting him to eat the raw food! Most cats (IME) really love the freeze-dreid stuff, but some won't touch fresh raw meat. So it could end up coming down to what he'll eat.

I have heard that Friskies Special Diet canned is about as good as the Rx stuff. Ingredients do look comparable.

Yikes I most certainly couldn't afford to switch all 4 cats over to freeze dried at $400 a month. I could do about half that without trouble, as that is about what I spend right now. I don't even spend $400 a month on my own groceries. Calvin does really like freeze dried treats, so I was thinking that he might eat that. It may still be an option for him but not for all four fur monsters. 

 

[vball91]

I wouldn't recommend a sole diet of S&C's anyway. You want as much variety as possible. My cat doesn't like raw chicken, but she likes the S&C's chicken, so it works for us. There's not enough variety in the S&C's cat dinners.

 

[ldg]

The freeze dried raw foods are all meant to be rehydrated before feeding anyway.

 

[luvmy4]

The freeze dried raw foods are all meant to be rehydrated before feeding anyway.

Haha. Yep, but I was thinking if I crumbled some dry on the top it might seem familiar 

 

[harleydiva]

I don't know where you are in Ohio, but My Pet Carnivore (mypetcarnivore.com) does monthly deliveries to several locations there.  Their mixes are complete, with, meat/bone/organ, so all you would have to do is add supplement.  I use Alnutrin (knowwhatyoufeed.com), or you can mix your own.  catinfo.org has a recipe with supplements.  The ground mixes from MPC come in 1 or 2 pound deli containers, so you can thaw, mix in the supplement, and use within 3 days, or freeze appropriate portions.  (I do 24 pounds every other week to feed 3 cats and 3 small dogs) The mixes are meat....but not really disgusting.  Doing it this way, is probably the cheapest route.

There are also frozen choices that would be more expensive, but keep you from having to deal with the mixing meat part.  Check out darwinspet.com....it comes in prepacked portions, that just have to be thawed, opened, and fed.  They do automatic monthly deliveries.  Bravo Balance is also a complete mix, and comes in frozen patties.  Check their website.....http://www.bravorawdiet.com/bravoretailers.html   You might find a retailer close to you.

 

[luvmy4]

Thanks everyone. I have a lot of options to look into. I will do some reading tonight and figure out what possibilities there are for Calvin.