Help for a beginner

[yelloweyedcat]

I am new to this raw feeding...New as in I don't even have a clue on the basics but I am highly interested in doing some of this for my two girls.

I don't know where to start though. Wahhhh...

I would be extremely grateful if I could get some information and advice from some members who know all about raw feeding, etc. (Hello -Waves-)

If I ask the questions then hopefully it should be easy for me to follow. Just act like you're speaking with a two year old though.

I'll appreciate all advice given.

Okay, so on with the questions...

What meat do you recommend to feed Cats? Though I do suppose it varies on the Cat and what their preference is.

Where can I obtain this meat from? I hear a lot of people mention butchers and that they sell it quite cheap. I've also heard of bones but I don't know what that is all about?

Aside from the meat, what else are you meant to put in with it?

How is it prepared?

What other equipment do I need to make this food?

How much of a batch can you make?

How do you store this raw food? (I have heard some people say they have made large quantities and have stored it in their freezer but then I am worried, as my freezer is extremely cold, that it would ice over and when thawing, become a watery dinner. Yuck)

Is it easy to introduce raw food and swap from canned to this? Or is there a step by step on doing this?

How much does it work out to be? Is it expensive or the same price?

I think that's it for now and there may be important questions I have missed but I don't know what you are meant to have/buy/look out for, etc. I will ask for more advice on how to start onceI  have grasped the basics.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

 

[jcat]

This member is in the UK, which is important in case you want to recommend commercial raw.

 

[ritz]

Welcome to the Raw Feeding Forum.

For general information about raw feeding, see the link.

For more information, go to www.catinfo.org, written by a vet about how to make your own cat food.

Briefly, you should use at least three different proteins, for example, beef, chicken and rabbit/goat/pork/turkey, pretty much anything your cat likes.

You can buy the meat from a butcher or (at least in the USA) most grocery stores or supermarkets that have an international clientele.  (They tend to stock more unusual meats and liver/kidney).  If the meat is good enough for you the human to eat, it is good enough for your cat!

You need to put in liver 3%-5% and a secreting organ like kidney, thymus, pancreas (5%). 

80% to 87% meat/fat/skin/heart and 5% to 10% edible bone.  BONE SHOULD NEVER EVER be cooked.

If you make your own food from the recipe given in www.catinfo.org, you'll need a grinder.  You can make as large a batch as you want provided you have sufficient freezer space.  Store portions in plastic containers or plastic baggies (the small kind).

Regarding transitioning, www.catcentric.org will have hints on transitioning your cat to raw.  It will be easier to transition your cats to raw if they are already eating wet/canned food, can be somewhat more difficult if transitioning from kibble.

Raw feeding is cheaper than feeding high quality canned food.  Though of course if you use high end meat like rabbit or veal or lamb, it can be a bit pricey.

After your read the links given and do some other research, feel free to ask some specific questions.

 

[vball91]

Ritz has given you a lot of good info. I will try to answer your specific questions.

What meat do you recommend to feed Cats? Though I do suppose it varies on the Cat and what their preference is.

You will need to try out various meats. Some cats will eat all with no problems. Some cats do not like certain meats/organs or have a problem with them (vomiting or diarrhea). Some cats have a problem with digesting fresh bone. You can feed any human grade meat depending on what's available to you. Chicken, turkey, beef, pork, lamb are all readily available here in the US. They're usually harder to source, but more exotic meats are rabbit, goat, bison, ostrich, duck, goose, quail. The more variety in types of meat/cuts of meat you can feed, the better. 3-5 protein sources is a recommended minimum.

Where can I obtain this meat from? I hear a lot of people mention butchers and that they sell it quite cheap. I've also heard of bones but I don't know what that is all about?

In the US, most of us source our meat from grocery stores, local butchers, local BARF groups, co-ops, specialty online places for the more exotic meats. I will address the bone question below.

Aside from the meat, what else are you meant to put in with it?

This depends on how you prepare it. See below.

How is it prepared?

There are 3 methods of feeding raw. One is whole prey, either live or frozen. For a variety of reasons, there aren't a whole lot of people who feed this way. Unless you raise them yourself, whole prey is very expensive.

The second is prey model raw (PMR or commonly called frankenprey). This method tries to emulate whole prey by feeding as many parts of different animals as possible. So you are feeding chunks/strips of meat/bone/organs. You are aiming for a 80-85/5-10/5/5 ratio of muscle meat/bone/liver/other secreting organ. There is some debate about this, but many PMR feeders do not supplement with anything other than an egg or sardine here and there which provides some additional nutrients. There are other PMR feeders who are not convinced that this method provides all the nutrition necessary and choose to supplement. Supplements include taurine, Vit. D, Vit. E, iodized salt, manganese, fish oil, etc. Most people generally balance out the ratio over the course of a week, so that you are not trying to feed miniscule amounts of liver/other organ/bone in every meal.

The final way is feed ground raw. By this, I mean taking fresh meat /organs/maybe bone as if you were feeding frankenprey, grinding it (with or without bone), and mixing with supplements. There are some commercial raw ground foods available in the US, but I'm not sure what's available in the UK. The pros are that you are balancing each portion, so no matter how much of it they eat, you know they are getting the proper nutrition and also that it is easier to mix in the supplements. Some people transition with ground raw and move to frankenprey as ground raw is more like commercial canned food. The cons are that there is some nutrient loss from the grinding process through oxidation, so you must supplement, and this is more labor intensive as well as requiring an upfront expense of a grinder if you don't already have one. A variation is to feed boneless frankenprey and supplement calcium for the bone. In the US, there are premixed supplements you can buy so that you don't need to buy the individual ones and figure out percentages yourself, but again, I'm not sure what's available in the UK. Members here have posted their own supplement mix, so it would be pretty easy to copy/tailor those for your own use.

What other equipment do I need to make this food? See above, possibly a grinder, sharp pair of scissors, knife, baggies, supplements, kitchen scale for weighing the proportions and portions.

How much of a batch can you make? That really depends on how much time and freezer space you have. Some people make a month's worth of food at a time. Some do sort of a rotation of new foods weekly.

How do you store this raw food? (I have heard some people say they have made large quantities and have stored it in their freezer but then I am worried, as my freezer is extremely cold, that it would ice over and when thawing, become a watery dinner. Yuck)

Freezer burn/icing over is okay. I read a study that says that nutrients are not lost from freezing. The freezer burn may have an unappealing texture, but it is okay to eat (humans as well as animals). Another way to source meat is to ask all of your friends/family to give you their freezer burned meat that they would otherwise throw out. The food is stored in the freezer in appropriate portions and you just take out enough for the next day the night before and let it thaw in the fridge.

Is it easy to introduce raw food and swap from canned to this? Or is there a step by step on doing this?

This will totally depend on the cat. Some cats transition to raw right away. Generally, the younger they are, the easier it is to transition to raw. It is generally easier to transition from canned to raw than from kibble to raw. There are different strategies to transitioning, and if you decide to try raw, you can read up on some transition threads of members who have gone through this (lots of great information already there) and start up your own transition thread to ask for specific advice.

How much does it work out to be? Is it expensive or the same price?

How much raw feeding ends up costing depends a lot on the types/costs of meat you can source. For me, it ends up being less than feeding high quality canned (so less than $2/day for me).

This might have been more information than you wanted. It really isn't as difficult/complicated as it sounds. Once you pick a method, you can try raw feeding without any supplementation for up to two weeks, or indefinitely if it's less than 15% of their total diet. So, you could try offering some small pieces of fresh meat the next time you're preparing some for yourself, and see how it goes.

 

[ldg]

All of the bases have really been covered already, so I'll just pop in to say....

When feeding raw, it really doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing proposition. It's safe to feed up to 15% of a cat's diet without being balanced. So if you're already feeding scheduled meals - say 3 a day, that's 21 meals a week. That means you can feed 3 meals of unbalanced raw food (just as an example). OR... for starters, you can treat raw as a treat. When you're preparing chicken or pork or beef or whatever for dinner, cut off a small strip, or a bite-sized piece and just offer it to your kitties. See if they like it! When I decided to offer them some meat chunks, I just went to the supermarket, bought some chicken breast, and cut some small pieces for the cats... they gobbled it up. :lol3:

One thing to be aware of, and I don't know if they do this in the UK, but here in the US, they will "bulk up" meat with a sodium solution. It's called "enhanced" meat - and I don't know labeling laws there, but here it is NOT always easy to tell whether meat has been enhanced with this salty water or not. We check by looking at the amount of sodium per serving. Here, if there is less than 100mg per 4 ounces (114g), then it's not enhanced with extra salt. If it has more, it's not healthy for the kitties.

As other members have found, even feeding a partial raw diet, you'll see the benefit. Cats are designed to thrive on raw meat - their systems are meant for it. And you'll see it in their energy levels, the luster and silky softness of their coats; their volume of urine output will go up, and the volume of their poop will go down. A lot. And if on all raw, it will have NO SMELL.

Nutritional deficiencies take time to develop, so if you're at all interested in feeding raw, you don't need to understand every aspect of it to start. You can learn as you go, especially if at first it's not 100% of their diet. You can start small, and as you get comfortable with it, learn what they like and don't, you can increase the amount you feed them, and learn how to balance it.

I expect it's the same there as here: for sourcing organs, many go to Asian markets. Organs comprise a very small part of a balanced raw diet. As explained earlier, liver should be just 5%, and another secreting organ (kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc.) should be just 5%. (Hearts and gizzards, though we may think of them as organs, are not secreting organs). If you feed frankenprey as opposed to making ground raw food, organs are rarely fed as an entire meal - most cats will throw up if fed that way. Most provide a meat/organ meal a couple of times a week.

The math on how much of what to feed can seem a little daunting at first if you feed frankenprey. If feeding ground, the recipes make figuring out how much of what to include very easy. And if you opt for prey model raw, don't forget you have a starting point already - how much wet food they eat daily. Because raw is SO much more bioavailable, assume they'll need a little less. CatCentric.org has an online calculator (in ounces, not kg/g) that makes it easy to figure out (though you'll have to convert the weights). The site also has a sample menu.

Oh - and as to your worry about your freezer and ice crystals? Some of the "juice" (and nutrients) from the meat will be in that dethaw water. If you're making ground, just mix it back in before serving. And if you feed frankenprey, just add it to the dish of food. It's yummy, and if they're enjoying their raw food, they'll love it!

And we're here for any more questions - and support along the way if you decide to give it a try!

 

[yelloweyedcat]

Ritz has given you a lot of good info. I will try to answer your specific questions.

What meat do you recommend to feed Cats? Though I do suppose it varies on the Cat and what their preference is.

You will need to try out various meats. Some cats will eat all with no problems. Some cats do not like certain meats/organs or have a problem with them (vomiting or diarrhea). Some cats have a problem with digesting fresh bone. You can feed any human grade meat depending on what's available to you. Chicken, turkey, beef, pork, lamb are all readily available here in the US. They're usually harder to source, but more exotic meats are rabbit, goat, bison, ostrich, duck, goose, quail. The more variety in types of meat/cuts of meat you can feed, the better. 3-5 protein sources is a recommended minimum.

Where can I obtain this meat from? I hear a lot of people mention butchers and that they sell it quite cheap. I've also heard of bones but I don't know what that is all about?

In the US, most of us source our meat from grocery stores, local butchers, local BARF groups, co-ops, specialty online places for the more exotic meats. I will address the bone question below.

Aside from the meat, what else are you meant to put in with it?

This depends on how you prepare it. See below.

How is it prepared?

There are 3 methods of feeding raw. One is whole prey, either live or frozen. For a variety of reasons, there aren't a whole lot of people who feed this way. Unless you raise them yourself, whole prey is very expensive.

The second is prey model raw (PMR or commonly called frankenprey). This method tries to emulate whole prey by feeding as many parts of different animals as possible. So you are feeding chunks/strips of meat/bone/organs. You are aiming for a 80-85/5-10/5/5 ratio of muscle meat/bone/liver/other secreting organ. There is some debate about this, but many PMR feeders do not supplement with anything other than an egg or sardine here and there which provides some additional nutrients. There are other PMR feeders who are not convinced that this method provides all the nutrition necessary and choose to supplement. Supplements include taurine, Vit. D, Vit. E, iodized salt, manganese, fish oil, etc. Most people generally balance out the ratio over the course of a week, so that you are not trying to feed miniscule amounts of liver/other organ/bone in every meal.

The final way is feed ground raw. By this, I mean taking fresh meat /organs/maybe bone as if you were feeding frankenprey, grinding it (with or without bone), and mixing with supplements. There are some commercial raw ground foods available in the US, but I'm not sure what's available in the UK. The pros are that you are balancing each portion, so no matter how much of it they eat, you know they are getting the proper nutrition and also that it is easier to mix in the supplements. Some people transition with ground raw and move to frankenprey as ground raw is more like commercial canned food. The cons are that there is some nutrient loss from the grinding process through oxidation, so you must supplement, and this is more labor intensive as well as requiring an upfront expense of a grinder if you don't already have one. A variation is to feed boneless frankenprey and supplement calcium for the bone. In the US, there are premixed supplements you can buy so that you don't need to buy the individual ones and figure out percentages yourself, but again, I'm not sure what's available in the UK. Members here have posted their own supplement mix, so it would be pretty easy to copy/tailor those for your own use.

What other equipment do I need to make this food? See above, possibly a grinder, sharp pair of scissors, knife, baggies, supplements, kitchen scale for weighing the proportions and portions.

How much of a batch can you make? That really depends on how much time and freezer space you have. Some people make a month's worth of food at a time. Some do sort of a rotation of new foods weekly.

How do you store this raw food? (I have heard some people say they have made large quantities and have stored it in their freezer but then I am worried, as my freezer is extremely cold, that it would ice over and when thawing, become a watery dinner. Yuck)

Freezer burn/icing over is okay. I read a study that says that nutrients are not lost from freezing. The freezer burn may have an unappealing texture, but it is okay to eat (humans as well as animals). Another way to source meat is to ask all of your friends/family to give you their freezer burned meat that they would otherwise throw out. The food is stored in the freezer in appropriate portions and you just take out enough for the next day the night before and let it thaw in the fridge.

Is it easy to introduce raw food and swap from canned to this? Or is there a step by step on doing this?

This will totally depend on the cat. Some cats transition to raw right away. Generally, the younger they are, the easier it is to transition to raw. It is generally easier to transition from canned to raw than from kibble to raw. There are different strategies to transitioning, and if you decide to try raw, you can read up on some transition threads of members who have gone through this (lots of great information already there) and start up your own transition thread to ask for specific advice.

How much does it work out to be? Is it expensive or the same price?

How much raw feeding ends up costing depends a lot on the types/costs of meat you can source. For me, it ends up being less than feeding high quality canned (so less than $2/day for me).

This might have been more information than you wanted. It really isn't as difficult/complicated as it sounds. Once you pick a method, you can try raw feeding without any supplementation for up to two weeks, or indefinitely if it's less than 15% of their total diet. So, you could try offering some small pieces of fresh meat the next time you're preparing some for yourself, and see how it goes.

Had to copy what you put as when I was quoting it wasn't showing what you had said. Really must learn how to use forums.

Anyway, thank you so much for answering all my questions in such a precise way. I really appreciate that.

So between 3-5 portions in the minimum? So, if I were to get chicken, pork and, say, mince, would this be acceptable? I see you mention beef. Do they actually eat that raw from the package or it is cooked first? I presume raw hence the name of the diet, haha. It's just I didn't think a Cat would be able to chew raw beef as it is very fatty and I presumed they'd choke.

If I were to go to the Butchers and ask for this how much do you think I should ask for? Bear in mind I am only wanting enough to make a few samples for them as I don't want to buy lots of ingredients just in case they do not like it. Would be a huge waste of money.

I certainly could not feed live prey to my Cats, simply because I'd have the same attitude for people who 'jump' at these people who are stupid enough to advertise free cats on websites and then use them as bait for their dogs. (Makes me so mad) Disgusting putting an animal through that. Plus, I couldn't see myself buying live prey and feeding them to my girls as I've had mice as pets and see it like that, haha. Plus, I wouldn't have the stomach to even give my girls mice that are already dead and frozen. Makes me shiver.

Okay, which do you recommend I should go for as I'm somewhat still quite confused. All these different raw diets use meat, liver, organs, etc, but it's just how it's prepared from there that makes it different? Is that right?  I'm just not sure on what one I should go for.

When you buy the meat, what happens next when you have it? It is all just ripped and shredded slapped in a bowl with added ingredients? I'm sorry if this sounding quite ignorant I'm just finding it difficult to understand certain things and I'm really wanting to do this.

I have actually gave the girls fresh meat, like chicken and they love it. The ones growls continously when she eats. I think she believes it's something she's killed or it's 'Real food' if that makes sense?

I hope I've not confused you but I'm still struggling in the deep pool.

Thank you again for your advice.

 

[ritz]

Hey that's a good sign, you giving them fresh raw chicken and them eating it.  Growling is normal--it means your cats really really like it and want more.

Yes cats actually eat beef (raw); cut it in 1/2 " or 1" pieces.  Stew beef is great for this.  Cats can chew bones, they can certainly chew beef!  If you're concerned about weight of your cats, simply trim visible fat from the meat/poultry you give your cats.  (Note that chicken skin is extremely high in fat.)

Ask your butcher if he has any small scraps of meat he'd be willing to sell you cheap, maybe the meat he'd normally throw away.  Assuming you're not a vegetarian or vegan, if the cats don't like, for example, pork, you can eat it yourself!  (PS:  what is mince?)

Relatively few people feed cats whole prey, that is simply one of the three options.  Like you, I couldn't stomach feeding something with a face on it.

And the percentages (80/10/5/5) are over a period of time (typically, a week), not on a per meal basis.  That would drive us mathematically challenged/non OCD people crazy

"How it is prepared from there that  makes it different? Is that right?"  I'm not sure what you mean.  If you're thinking of grinding the meat/liver/organs/bones, look at a recipe (link already provided).  But keep in mind what others have advised:  as long as the raw food is less than 15% of the total you feed your cats,  you don't have to worry about proportion.  And you can certainly mix different meats and different organs in the same meal.  I routinely feed Ritz some raw beef, some raw chicken breast, with bone from quail, liver from a chicken and kidney from a pig--all in the same day.

Meanwhile, do more reading (links provided) and try not to sweat the details for now.

 

[yelloweyedcat]

Hey that's a good sign, you giving them fresh raw chicken and them eating it.  Growling is normal--it means your cats really really like it and want more.

Yes cats actually eat beef (raw); cut it in 1/2 " or 1" pieces.  Stew beef is great for this.  Cats can chew bones, they can certainly chew beef!  If you're concerned about weight of your cats, simply trim visible fat from the meat/poultry you give your cats.  (Note that chicken skin is extremely high in fat.)

Ask your butcher if he has any small scraps of meat he'd be willing to sell you cheap, maybe the meat he'd normally throw away.  Assuming you're not a vegetarian or vegan, if the cats don't like, for example, pork, you can eat it yourself!  (PS:  what is mince?)

Relatively few people feed cats whole prey, that is simply one of the three options.  Like you, I couldn't stomach feeding something with a face on it.

And the percentages (80/10/5/5) are over a period of time (typically, a week), not on a per meal basis.  That would drive us mathematically challenged/non OCD people crazy

"How it is prepared from there that  makes it different? Is that right?"  I'm not sure what you mean.  If you're thinking of grinding the meat/liver/organs/bones, look at a recipe (link already provided).  But keep in mind what others have advised:  as long as the raw food is less than 15% of the total you feed your cats,  you don't have to worry about proportion.  And you can certainly mix different meats and different organs in the same meal.  I routinely feed Ritz some raw beef, some raw chicken breast, with bone from quail, liver from a chicken and kidney from a pig--all in the same day.

Meanwhile, do more reading (links provided) and try not to sweat the details for now.

They love it. I also gave Fidget a tiny piece of raw beef yesterday whilst I was preparing a casserole for tonight but was told not to give it them as it's so full of fat it would become lodged in their throat. She only had a pea size ammount and seemed to like it again though that ammount isn't really enough to make an opinion quite yet. Didn't want to say I had given her this in case some told me off and said you were meant to semi cook it or something first. I honestly did think Cats could get worms from Beef if it wasn't cooked first. Glad they can't though as cooking all the food and then giving it them would surely drain (I don't know if that is the right word to use) the good stuff. Does that make sense?

Mince is red meat. It looks exactly like red maggots, lol. I presume it is not very big where you are then? I was told mince is good to use so I am planning on getting chicken, pork and mince tonight.

I've been reading Lisa Piersons blog on raw feeding and other websites which say you need to put in vitamins, taurine, salt or something, and other stuff. Fish oil was mentioned too but then it said giving them some fish once a month is fine if you prefer that option. :/  A lot of these authors speak about certain equipment as if you should know what they are, how to use them and what their purpose is. I am finding it very difficult to follow any of this. I'm getting the meat bit and the other stuff you need but (Without a grinder) I don't know what I am meant to do once I have it all ready. Most the raw feeding recipes include a grinder, yet it says you can do these without one, just more time spent. Obviously there is no point in me getting a grinder yet when I am just (At this time) wanting to see if they like it first. Plus, I am told grinders are very expensive and don't have that sort of money I'm thinking of this month to fork out.

So other than the three proteins I need to get things like entails, liver, heart, etc? I suppose I get this from the Butchers then? And do you think they would give it to me free or fairly cheap as I presume it is something they throw out anyway.

So once I have the meat all ready (How much meat should I get if I am wanting to see if they like it) what other ingredients will I need? I suppose it is the vitamins, oil, taurine next? Where do you even buy taurine?

I am still reading through her blog (There is a lot and am slowly understanding fragments) but it is more confusing than it is educating for me.

Is chicken skin not good to give then? As every Sunday when we have a roast I give them the skin from the chicken. Is is bad for them?

Too be honest I suck at maths, I honestly do so I will get my OH to help with the calculations until I get it as I really don't. He has the brains in the math department; I'm still stuck in the primary school clasroom chewing on my pencil, lol.

Sorry, that was me having a grammatical error there and really mixed those words up. What I meant is that you say there is more than one method of raw feeding, a few, so is it the ingredients that makes the methods differ? I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, thanks for your response and, of course, the links. Very much appreciated.

 

[peaches08]

Here's what I did: I first used premixes like TC Feline so all I had to do was add meat that I cut into chunks. That premix contained everything the cats needed except for the meat. I added however much premix the bag said to however much meat I had. Then I froze whatever portions I wasn't going to use within 2 days.

My ultimate goal was to feed the recipe from www.catinfo.org. I bought a deep freezer and the grinder was on backorder. I continued using premix until the grinder came in. Once the grinder came in I started using the catinfo recipe.

I simply rinse the meat well, discard the excess skin/bones that I don't need per the recipe, and chunk as much of the meat as I can. Then I mix the supplement slurry per the recipe and mix well. I add more water than the recipe calls for to make sure my active cats get enough water. I freeze what I don't need right away and thaw out only what I'll use within 2-3 days. It thaws out just fine and my kitties lick their bowls clean.

My way is just one way to do it, and I started with chicken thighs as the only source of meat. For my IBD cats that probably wasn't a bad thing. I've recently started trying some different meats added to their chicken thighs recipe and I'm loving not having to debone meat!

 

[vball91]

I am going to try to simplify things for you. Given that your cats will eat pieces of meat already, I would recommend frankenprey, not grinding. Once you come up with a weekly menu that the cats will reliably eat, it becomes very simple. Here's a thread on examples of weekly menus. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/219695/what-does-your-menu-look-like  I'm also going to answer your questions below.

They love it. I also gave Fidget a tiny piece of raw beef yesterday whilst I was preparing a casserole for tonight but was told not to give it them as it's so full of fat it would become lodged in their throat. She only had a pea size ammount and seemed to like it again though that ammount isn't really enough to make an opinion quite yet. Didn't want to say I had given her this in case some told me off and said you were meant to semi cook it or something first. I honestly did think Cats could get worms from Beef if it wasn't cooked first. Glad they can't though as cooking all the food and then giving it them would surely drain (I don't know if that is the right word to use) the good stuff. Does that make sense?

Depending on the cut, beef is no fattier than other meats, and you want to provide variety, so beef is a good one to add. Also, taurine is higher in the red meats and darker cuts (so beef has more taurine than chicken and chicken thighs have more taurine than chicken breasts). If you're not going to supplement taurine which if you feed frankenprey, you don't really need to if you make sure they have plenty of red/dark meats.

Mince is red meat. It looks exactly like red maggots, lol. I presume it is not very big where you are then? I was told mince is good to use so I am planning on getting chicken, pork and mince tonight. I think mince is the same as our ground meat, which not recommended to feed. When meat is commercially ground, it begins oxidizing and bacteria can start to form. In the US, they also add things like pink slime, which is not good. If you want to feed ground, you need to grind it yourself and have a butcher grind it fresh for you which you can then portion and freeze immediately as necessary.

I've been reading Lisa Piersons blog on raw feeding and other websites which say you need to put in vitamins, taurine, salt or something, and other stuff. Fish oil was mentioned too but then it said giving them some fish once a month is fine if you prefer that option. :/  A lot of these authors speak about certain equipment as if you should know what they are, how to use them and what their purpose is. I am finding it very difficult to follow any of this. I'm getting the meat bit and the other stuff you need but (Without a grinder) I don't know what I am meant to do once I have it all ready. Most the raw feeding recipes include a grinder, yet it says you can do these without one, just more time spent. Obviously there is no point in me getting a grinder yet when I am just (At this time) wanting to see if they like it first. Plus, I am told grinders are very expensive and don't have that sort of money I'm thinking of this month to fork out.

This is all relevant to grinding. That's why I'm recommending frankenprey for you. No grinding, and if you do it right, no supplements are necessary.

So other than the three proteins I need to get things like entails, liver, heart, etc? I suppose I get this from the Butchers then? And do you think they would give it to me free or fairly cheap as I presume it is something they throw out anyway. Yes, but don't worry about this quite yet. You can feed just meat for up to two weeks.

So once I have the meat all ready (How much meat should I get if I am wanting to see if they like it) I would start with 2oz of raw meat per meal 3 times a day. Your cats may need more or less than that, but you will figure that out as you go. So since you have two cats, you will need 12oz of meat a day. I would buy a few pounds of meat (chicken is usually the starter meat), chop or dice or cut into thin strips and portion into 4oz containers (a lot of us use freezer bags). Leave in the fridge what you need for 2 days (6 containers) and freeze the rest. Once you're out of the fridge portions, take out another 3 containers to thaw in the fridge for the next day, and so forth. When serving, either take it out of the fridge for a few minutes or soak the container or baggie in warm water to bring it up to room temperature somewhat. When ready, split the meat into two portions (start with equal portions, you can adjust if needed if one eats more than the other) and serve. Try this for a week. If it works, we can help you figure out the rest, but this is the big part.

what other ingredients will I need? I suppose it is the vitamins, oil, taurine next? Where do you even buy taurine? Don't worry about these for now. Let's get your cats eating raw, then worry about supplementing if needed.

I am still reading through her blog (There is a lot and am slowly understanding fragments) but it is more confusing than it is educating for me.

Is chicken skin not good to give then? As every Sunday when we have a roast I give them the skin from the chicken. Is is bad for them? Well, chicken skin is all fat, so I woudn't feed a lot of it. This is way more fatty than beef for example.

Too be honest I suck at maths, I honestly do so I will get my OH to help with the calculations until I get it as I really don't. He has the brains in the math department; I'm still stuck in the primary school clasroom chewing on my pencil, lol. Don't worry. There's not that much math, and there are lots of people here who can help you figure out the percentages.

Sorry, that was me having a grammatical error there and really mixed those words up. What I meant is that you say there is more than one method of raw feeding, a few, so is it the ingredients that makes the methods differ? I hope that makes sense. The difference is really just in preparation and whether or not you decide to supplement. But again, try the method I outlined above. I think it will be the simplest for you and give you a good idea of whether this will work for you and your cats.

Anyway, thanks for your response and, of course, the links. Very much appreciated.

 

[vball91]

Here's what I did: I first used premixes like TC Feline so all I had to do was add meat that I cut into chunks. That premix contained everything the cats needed except for the meat. I added however much premix the bag said to however much meat I had. Then I froze whatever portions I wasn't going to use within 2 days.

My ultimate goal was to feed the recipe from www.catinfo.org. I bought a deep freezer and the grinder was on backorder. I continued using premix until the grinder came in. Once the grinder came in I started using the catinfo recipe.

I simply rinse the meat well, discard the excess skin/bones that I don't need per the recipe, and chunk as much of the meat as I can. Then I mix the supplement slurry per the recipe and mix well. I add more water than the recipe calls for to make sure my active cats get enough water. I freeze what I don't need right away and thaw out only what I'll use within 2-3 days. It thaws out just fine and my kitties lick their bowls clean.

My way is just one way to do it, and I started with chicken thighs as the only source of meat. For my IBD cats that probably wasn't a bad thing. I've recently started trying some different meats added to their chicken thighs recipe and I'm loving not having to debone meat!

peaches, the OP is in the UK, and I'm not sure what pre-mixed supplements are available there. It's a great idea and how I started as well.

 

[peaches08]

There's a European connection in Germany. I assumed that they could ship to UK.

 

[jcat]

peaches, the OP is in the UK, and I'm not sure what pre-mixed supplements are available there. It's a great idea and how I started as well. :smile2:

Not being a raw feeder, I can't vouch for the quality, but there's a supplement called Felini Complete available at zooplus uk.

 

[yelloweyedcat]

I am going to try to simplify things for you. Given that your cats will eat pieces of meat already, I would recommend frankenprey, not grinding. Once you come up with a weekly menu that the cats will reliably eat, it becomes very simple. Here's a thread on examples of weekly menus. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/219695/what-does-your-menu-look-like  I'm also going to answer your questions below.

They love it. I also gave Fidget a tiny piece of raw beef yesterday whilst I was preparing a casserole for tonight but was told not to give it them as it's so full of fat it would become lodged in their throat. She only had a pea size ammount and seemed to like it again though that ammount isn't really enough to make an opinion quite yet. Didn't want to say I had given her this in case some told me off and said you were meant to semi cook it or something first. I honestly did think Cats could get worms from Beef if it wasn't cooked first. Glad they can't though as cooking all the food and then giving it them would surely drain (I don't know if that is the right word to use) the good stuff. Does that make sense?

Depending on the cut, beef is no fattier than other meats, and you want to provide variety, so beef is a good one to add. Also, taurine is higher in the red meats and darker cuts (so beef has more taurine than chicken and chicken thighs have more taurine than chicken breasts). If you're not going to supplement taurine which if you feed frankenprey, you don't really need to if you make sure they have plenty of red/dark meats.

Mince is red meat. It looks exactly like red maggots, lol. I presume it is not very big where you are then? I was told mince is good to use so I am planning on getting chicken, pork and mince tonight. I think mince is the same as our ground meat, which not recommended to feed. When meat is commercially ground, it begins oxidizing and bacteria can start to form. In the US, they also add things like pink slime, which is not good. If you want to feed ground, you need to grind it yourself and have a butcher grind it fresh for you which you can then portion and freeze immediately as necessary.

I've been reading Lisa Piersons blog on raw feeding and other websites which say you need to put in vitamins, taurine, salt or something, and other stuff. Fish oil was mentioned too but then it said giving them some fish once a month is fine if you prefer that option. :/  A lot of these authors speak about certain equipment as if you should know what they are, how to use them and what their purpose is. I am finding it very difficult to follow any of this. I'm getting the meat bit and the other stuff you need but (Without a grinder) I don't know what I am meant to do once I have it all ready. Most the raw feeding recipes include a grinder, yet it says you can do these without one, just more time spent. Obviously there is no point in me getting a grinder yet when I am just (At this time) wanting to see if they like it first. Plus, I am told grinders are very expensive and don't have that sort of money I'm thinking of this month to fork out.

This is all relevant to grinding. That's why I'm recommending frankenprey for you. No grinding, and if you do it right, no supplements are necessary.

So other than the three proteins I need to get things like entails, liver, heart, etc? I suppose I get this from the Butchers then? And do you think they would give it to me free or fairly cheap as I presume it is something they throw out anyway. Yes, but don't worry about this quite yet. You can feed just meat for up to two weeks.

So once I have the meat all ready (How much meat should I get if I am wanting to see if they like it) I would start with 2oz of raw meat per meal 3 times a day. Your cats may need more or less than that, but you will figure that out as you go. So since you have two cats, you will need 12oz of meat a day. I would buy a few pounds of meat (chicken is usually the starter meat), chop or dice or cut into thin strips and portion into 4oz containers (a lot of us use freezer bags). Leave in the fridge what you need for 2 days (6 containers) and freeze the rest. Once you're out of the fridge portions, take out another 3 containers to thaw in the fridge for the next day, and so forth. When serving, either take it out of the fridge for a few minutes or soak the container or baggie in warm water to bring it up to room temperature somewhat. When ready, split the meat into two portions (start with equal portions, you can adjust if needed if one eats more than the other) and serve. Try this for a week. If it works, we can help you figure out the rest, but this is the big part.

what other ingredients will I need? I suppose it is the vitamins, oil, taurine next? Where do you even buy taurine? Don't worry about these for now. Let's get your cats eating raw, then worry about supplementing if needed.

I am still reading through her blog (There is a lot and am slowly understanding fragments) but it is more confusing than it is educating for me.

Is chicken skin not good to give then? As every Sunday when we have a roast I give them the skin from the chicken. Is is bad for them? Well, chicken skin is all fat, so I woudn't feed a lot of it. This is way more fatty than beef for example.

Too be honest I suck at maths, I honestly do so I will get my OH to help with the calculations until I get it as I really don't. He has the brains in the math department; I'm still stuck in the primary school clasroom chewing on my pencil, lol. Don't worry. There's not that much math, and there are lots of people here who can help you figure out the percentages.

Sorry, that was me having a grammatical error there and really mixed those words up. What I meant is that you say there is more than one method of raw feeding, a few, so is it the ingredients that makes the methods differ? I hope that makes sense. The difference is really just in preparation and whether or not you decide to supplement. But again, try the method I outlined above. I think it will be the simplest for you and give you a good idea of whether this will work for you and your cats.

Anyway, thanks for your response and, of course, the links. Very much appreciated.

Ah, thank you again for your reply. It made so much more sense now. 

So, I got the chicken, the mince and the pork, as well as getting a kilo of liver from the Butchers today. They didn't have any offel (sp?) and have said they could order it in for me so I said I'd go back to them when I wanted to order some as I decided I was just going to try feeding her just the raw meat for now to take it step by step. She likes all of it so far all but Tibbs who has taken one sniff and walked away, lol.

This frankenprey sounds the right one for me by the sounds of it. The way I was reading this and also following the links given I presumed you needed a grinder definitely and all the extra ingredients and was then told Taurine is very expensive which did make me shrink back a little.

Mince is just red meat that has been grinded and a lot of people have said it's good to give in the diet. Should I switch this to beef instead? (By this I mean diced beef, etc) I got mince as, to tell you the truth, it is hell of a lot cheaper than pieces of beef, which is so expensive even I don't buy it for myself often. Though I haven't asked the butcher how much they charge and compared this to supermarket beef. That's the beef I get which is expensive, hence not getting it often.

I've cut and diced all the meat. Do I just mix it together and put in a bowl for them then? I have bought some fish oil but came back on here just to go over whatever else I needed but, as you have said, it is not needed at present. 

I know chicken skin is very high in fat but I thought this was good for Cats as opposed to us, lol. So when I buy chicken throw the skin away instead then?

Thank you again for taking the time to answer all my doubt and questions. 

 

[vball91]

I would start with just the pieces of chicken. Feed that for a few days and make sure there are no issues (no vomiting, no diarrhea). If ok, you can introduce the pork. Wait on the liver for at least week, maybe two. If all goes well, let's evaluate after a week.

About the mince, I'm just not sure what the quality is there. I would be concerned a little about bacterial contamination and loss of nutrients from oxidation. If you hear of other people feeding pets mince without any problems, I would be more inclined to try it. Are there cheaper cuts of beef you could get? Here in the US the roast type meats are cheaper than the steak cuts. Also keep an eye out for sales and stock up.

Cats can handle a high amount of fat, but remember that the meat you're feeding already has fat. Chicken skin is ok to feed once in a while, but I wouldn't feed a lot of it.

For Tibbs, try putting his canned food with the raw, either mixed in or off to the side. You want Tibbs to get used to it and to start thinking of it as food.

About

 

[yelloweyedcat]

Thanks Vball for the advice. 

 

[yelloweyedcat]

So, a little update on how the introducing of raw food went.

Fidget really seemed to like it and would eat the whole bowl full when I gave it her but Tibbs flat out refused to. Cutting the liver into pieces was one of the most gruesome things ever. I had to stop halfway through as I became a marshmellow, haha.

But, yes, Fidget definitely gives a paws up on the raw meat. No vomitting and no Diarrhea. It even seemed to fill her better too.

Can you explain what you mean by oxidation from the mince please? Do you mean loss of nutrients or something?

No, beef isn't cheap here at all. It's really expensive. The Butchers I went to do something called chuck which is beef but they say it's only really good for stew and casserole as it's the only way to get the meat nice and tender. It'd be like boat lace if you cooked it in an oven as opposed to a slow cooker. I'm not sure how much it would cost me on its own as I got it in this bargain pack of 4 kilos of meat for £20. Not sure if this would be acceptable for the cats to eat though?

I finish my job in a few weeks so will be strapped for cash for awhile so, unfortunately, I'll have to scrap the continuation of raw feeding for now.

When money comes in again I'll be back on here following the advice given as well as getting to the next step. I definitely know I will need to change some of the meat to more 'red meat'

Thank you all for the help.

 

[vball91]

Glad to hear that Fidget is enjoying raw. Sounds like Tibbs is going to take more time.

For mince, you just don't know when the meat was ground. As soon as the meat is ground, there is now more surface area for bacteria. The increased surface area also allows for oxidation, which yes, leads to nutrient loss.

Chuck is great for cats. I think it's the meat commonly labeled as stew meat here, which is often fed to cats.