Guess the Breed(s)!

[posiepurrs]

This is a quote from the CFA breed article about Siberians "One reason why it may take some time to get the correct coat is because Siberians are slow to mature and take up to five years to fully develop. Males, in particular, continue to put on muscle and begin to look quite hefty as they age past five years. Some owners have even noticed their cats gaining muscle as they approach 10 years of age."

And this is from the Norwegian Breed article "Although the Norwegian Forest Cat is a slow-maturing breed which does not reach full development until five years of age, this does not mean that they are not "put together" prior to that time. As with all breeds, some will mature earlier than others."

That is why I said Siberians are slow maturing.

 

[abyeb]

This is a quote from the CFA breed article about Siberians "One reason why it may take some time to get the correct coat is because Siberians are slow to mature and take up to five years to fully develop. Males, in particular, continue to put on muscle and begin to look quite hefty as they age past five years. Some owners have even noticed their cats gaining muscle as they approach 10 years of age."
And this is from the Norwegian Breed article "Although the Norwegian Forest Cat is a slow-maturing breed which does not reach full development until five years of age, this does not mean that they are not "put together" prior to that time. As with all breeds, some will mature earlier than others."

That is why I said Siberians are slow maturing.

That was my mistake. I was under the impression that Siberians matured at the same rate as MC and NFC. Siberian is definitely a possibility, but I'm just confused by the head shape of these cats, as Siberians have a head with rounded contours, and a rounded muzzle, and Frost has a prominent muzzle pinch.

 

[StefanZ]

The marbled tabby is prob an Siberian, even if he is somewhat smallish.   Google on Masha  Obninsk,  whom is a natural Siberian....   Compare especially the first pic with pics on her....   Mirroriing each other....

The second could be a maine coon, as I understand, white is allowed there, even if not that common.  Smallish her too.

Being smallish, may be the reason they arent seen as full show quality.

 

[Animal Freak]

I think I got enough opinions to move on to the next question and reveal what breed they're supposed to be. Both of these cats were sold to me as non-standard Napoleons. Admittedly, I did rather little research on them and the breed confuses me as to what's acceptable and what's not. The other night I attempted to learn more about the non-standard specifically, but of course, there's really nothing about them. The first thing that led me to believe the boys were, in fact, not Napoleons was the weight. Up until recently, everything I had read said Napoleons were about six pounds. Of course, I discovered recently that they can get a bit bigger and am fairly sure the six pound weight limit is for the standards. I can't say I remember the exact weight I read, but I do believe Ash is still a bit out of range. Upon doing some more thorough research, I found that everything I read seemed to say they basically look like short-legged Persians. The boys look nothing like Persians though and I am aware that there's a few different breeds included in this group, but I couldn't find any similarities among any of them with my untrained eye. And, as posiepurrs pointed out, they don't have the round body as with the Persians. However, feel free to correct me if you believe they are, indeed, Napoleons and I am simply mistaken. As I said, the breed as me a bit confused since most of the information is on the standard. So, to end my rambling, let me know if you think they're full Napoleons, part Napoleon, or not Napoleon at all! And thanks for all the responses so far!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

 
However, feel free to correct me if you believe they are, indeed, Napoleons and I am simply mistaken.

If these cats are Napoleons (properly "Minuets") I'll eat Finland.  If Ash is not a Siberian x Maine Coon cross, I'll eat Helsinki take you to dinner in Helsinki.

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[abyeb]

What breed registry was the breeder with?

 

[Animal Freak]

I can't say I remember. Their papers are currently lost in a box somewhere, but I do want to find them soon so if I learn anything I'll let you know.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

What breed registry was the breeder with?

Lynda was absolutely correct (of course) regarding CFA not recognising Napoleons / Minuets.

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[abyeb]

Lynda was absolutely correct (of course) regarding CFA not recognising Napoleons / Minuets.

.

Yes, I was also aware of this, as I posted earlier, so if the breeder said that they were with CFA, that would be another indication that something fishy was going on... it seems to be a general consensus that they are not Napoleons/Minuets, as I gather from your post about eating Finland. [emoji]133658964462[/emoji]

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

Yes, I was also aware of this, as I posted earlier, so if the breeder said that they were with CFA, that would be another indication that something fishy was going on... it seems to be a general consensus that they are not Napoleons/Minuets, as I gather from your post about eating Finland.

[emoji]133658964462[/emoji]

No; I wrote that before dinner.  I'm so full now that I couldn't eat another country.

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[Animal Freak]

I tried to look into Napoleon breeders in the area I got them from with the thought that something might look familiar, but I found nothing. Unfortunately, the last time I got cats from a breeder was when I got the boys 5+ years ago and didn't really have a big part in finding the breeder. I couldn't find anything, but I might keep looking and I'll try to find their papers sometime this week to see if that gives any helpful information.

 

[StefanZ]

I dont know much about Napoleon / Minuets.  Googling pics on them, I guess they are some sort of longhaired Munchkins?

I dont know exactly the exact  genetics of munchikins, but if its something alike folded scots - there will be longlegged individuals too...   As there are haired PeterBald, these looks as normal orientals.  While Peterbald are naked orientals...

There are haired naked dogs, etc etc...

And all these, although non typical and non Show-able, are pedigreed and purebred...  And may even be used for breeding, as they do carry the correct genes.

The only question is which association -  and thus, if the claim was correct, or it was something fake scam going on.

Because naming a moggie for a breed is quite normal, and as long you take payment as for a nice moggie, it may even be OK.

But taking payment as for a purebred, AND presenting faked papers, isnt OK. Never ever.

 

[Animal Freak]

I dont know much about Napoleon / Minuets.  Googling pics on them, I guess they are some sort of longhaired Munchkins?

I dont know exactly the exact  genetics of munchikins, but if its something alike folded scots - there will be longlegged individuals too...   As there are haired PeterBald, these looks as normal orientals.  While Peterbald are naked orientals...
There are haired naked dogs, etc etc...

And all these, although non typical and non Show-able, are pedigreed and purebred...  And may even be used for breeding, as they do carry the correct genes.

The only question is which association -  and thus, if the claim was correct, or it was something fake scam going on.

Because naming a moggie for a breed is quite normal, and as long you take payment as for a nice moggie, it may even be OK.

But taking payment as for a purebred, AND presenting faked papers, isnt OK. Never ever.

Napoleons are a cross between Persians and Munchkins and, yes, the boys are the non-standard, long legged version. From what I've read, the breed takes most of their appearances other than the short legs from the Persian which the boys look nothing alike. They also seem to be a bit large, Ash in particular.

Their breed does not bother me and I did not expect this become such a big deal. I posted here only to get a more experienced opinion than my own. I also don't know much about breeding and breeders so I'm sure someone else can offer better information on Napoleons than I can.

 

[Animal Freak]

So we did some digging around but finally came to the conclusion that we didn't end up getting their actual papers. We weren't allowed to get them until the boys were neutered and apparently my mom didn't send any proof of that. There are some papers somewhere though. I do remember we got something, but they weren't official. However, we searched through emails and came up with something. We managed to find the breeder from which we got our cats. She is registered with the TICA and I discovered we asked more questions than I thought including the sex of our supposed female, Ash's broken tail tip, and their breeding. She admitted that she didn't know their background. I thought that was a little weird since she was the one who bred them, but I suppose you can't know everything. On the bright side, we found baby pictures of Ash! None of Frost though. We couldn't even figure out what his old name was.

 

[abyeb]

Would you get the papers if you sent in proof of neutering now? It is very strange that she doesn't know your cats' backgrounds, breeders keep a detailed record of their cats, and pedigrees contain information about the cat's parents, and grandparents. (Do they go all the way back to great grandparents, posiepurrs ?) this info is necessary for breeders, it is the "road map" that they use to prevent in-breeding.

 

[Animal Freak]

I'm not sure. I can ask and see if my mom would be willing to try. I'd kind of like to have them. Of course, they can't be bred and they're not going to do any shows, but it would be nice to have them.

 

[posiepurrs]

Would you get the papers if you sent in proof of neutering now? It is very strange that she doesn't know your cats' backgrounds, breeders keep a detailed record of their cats, and pedigrees contain information about the cat's parents, and grandparents. (Do they go all the way back to great grandparents, posiepurrs ?) this info is necessary for breeders, it is the "road map" that they use to prevent in-breeding.

I have 16 generationpedigees ( I think- I am not home to look). With some breeds there are pedigree sites online where you can go back as far as you want or is recorded. On one of those I followed a branch of my sires pedigree all the way back to the very first recorded silver!
It is very odd the breedercouldn't provide information on a cat she was supposed to have bred.

 

[Willowy]

They don't look Persian at all, really, in my totally amateur opinion . I would expect a cat with recent Persian heritage to have a much flatter face, even if the Persian was "doll face". Fine handsome boys, though!

 

[Animal Freak]

It did seem a bit strange that she couldn't give us much information. She wasn't even able to tell us if Ash had been born with his tail broken or not. So it doesn't seem like we went to the best breeder, but we got two wonderful cats either way.