Cats throwing up on raw diet

[chewtoy]

Hi, I have three 7 month old cats. We found a local store that makes raw food to each customer's specifications, so we had them make ours with raw bone-in chicken thighs, a few hearts, and a few carrots, plus their vitamin blend with taurine. The resulting mix is medium-fine, with visible bone bits, about the size of rice grains.

The cats love it, but can't seem to keep it down. We were originally giving them a tiny bit of chicken liver with the raw food, then I read that organ meat needs to be introduced later, so we stopped that, but they kept throwing up.

Then I thought perhaps we didn't give them enough time to acclimate to a raw diet, so we backed off the raw mix completely, put the custom blend into the freezer, and reintroduced Evo grain-free cat & kitten canned food, to which we add just a couple of pieces of raw chicken heart. That's pretty much their diet these days.

I also suspected maybe they weren't reacting well to big meals or cold meals, so now we feed them 4-5 times a day, giving them approximately 1 to 1.5 ounces of gently warmed food each time. They've been keeping the canned food+heart meals down with little problem for several weeks.

Tonight I tried to reintroduce the custom raw mix, by giving them each just about one teaspoon of the fridge-thawed blend, slightly warmed. Two are doing fine, but one just threw up, about an hour and a half after eating it.

Any ideas? Does it sound like the raw blend could be the culprit? I read that cats are not very susceptible to salmonella, but I also can't exactly vouch for the store's sanitation practices. Or could it be the bone bits?

I don't mind putting in effort for these guys, and I really want them to get the benefits of a raw diet, but I'm stumped! Any help is appreciated.

 

[ldg]

Well, the vomiting isn't salmonella, there would have been more symptoms than that.

If your kitties are doing OK on the canned with pieces of chicken and heart, I wonder if the problem is the raw carrots.

Cats can't actually use anything in the carrot other than the fiber. They lack the digestive enzyme necessary to convert beta carotene into vitamin A - it must be preformed, and there's plenty of it in the meat (which is the only usable vitamin A for them, unless provided preformed in a supplement). The carrots in cat food are filler or beta carotene is used for color - and they're cooked, so easier to digest.

I suspect the issue is the formulation. :nod:

 

[auntie crazy]

There are two likely possibilities here. One, did you - or can you - check the sodium content of the meat? Anything higher than 100 mg per serving indicates the meat has been "enhanced" with some type of broth. Enhanced meats almost invariably cause vomiting.

Two, like LDG said, carrots don't belong in a cat's diet and are one of the most difficult to digest veggies (even we have trouble with them). It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the presence of chopped up carrots is causing the vomiting.

There are also two slightly less likely possibilities: the bone content and the vitamin mix. Thigh bones are a little denser than rib, neck or wing bones and it could be that they're either a little too dense or there is too high a bone content for kittens just starting on raw. Do you know exactly how much bone, meat (thigh meat and hearts), and carrots is in your mix?

Many vitamin mixes are sourced from China, and may well be adulterated. Even if they're not, they're usually made with synthetic ingredients. What vitamin mix are you using and from where are you purchasing it?

AC

 

[whollycat]

Yeah, it sounds like something in the raw mix to me. Could also be that you need to transition slowly, e.g. remove 1 teaspoon (or less) of the canned and replace with the same amount of raw. Then gradually work up to all raw.

Digestive enzymes can help, as can a probiotic when going to a new food.

Some kitties will vomit if the food is cold, so I would always warm it (not in the microwave--you don't want to cook the bones or they'll splinter).

Were the carrots cooked and pureed? They should be cooked and pureed, because you have to break down the cellular walls of any veggies used for a fiber source. Could be that grinding them isn't enough and caused digestive upset. How much carrot was added?

What is in the "vitamin blend"? This could be a source of vomiting depending on what is in it. Could you list what is in it? Quite a few years ago I tried a pre-mix and all kitties upchucked. Oy.

Did they include all the skin on the thighs? I never go over 1/3-1/2 of skin-on thighs--as in I remove the remaining skin (1/2-2/3). Too much skin may cause vomiting in some kitties (although I've never had that problem with my bubbies--I do it to reduce the O6 ratio because of Maxie's EGC).

I've never had any kitties vomit from liver, but too much can give 'em the runs. Stick with 5% liver. Liver has a lot of good vitamins, etc., so I would add it but only 5% of the mix.

Do you add egg yolk? Lots of nutrients in them.

 

[chewtoy]

Thanks for the quick replies.

The guy at the store recommended carrots for the vitamin A, but didn't specify cooked or raw. It ended up being about a quarter of a pound of carrots and a quarter of a pound of hearts in 10 pounds of bone-in chicken thighs. No liver. They do eat carrots in their canned food, but as you pointed out, those have been cooked.

As for the meat, we bought the thighs "loose" from the meat counter. They weren't pre-packaged. I don't know if they were injected with saline, unfortunately, or if so how much. The cat shop included all of the bones in our mix, I believe, because it wasn't until AFTER we had it made that I read a recommendation to remove some of the bones in order to increase the ratio of meat to bones. I believe they kept on all the skins too.

And as for the vitamin mix—I don't know what he used! Now I'm kicking myself for not asking more questions. I know he emphasized that it did contain taurine. I will call or stop by tomorrow and see what I can find out. He doesn't seem like the type to cut corners and he's a big proponent of raw diets, but you never know. I was counting on him to lead us in the right direction, but I think he left too many decisions in our ignorant hands.

So... it sounds like my heart was in the right place, but I screwed this up pretty majorly! Raw carrots, too much bone, too much skin, and unresearched vitamin mix! I think we'll just need to start over with a whole new blend.

Thanks so much for all the help!

 

[chewtoy]

Forgot to add, they have been getting some probiotics lately, in anticipation of reintroducing them to their raw mix.

 

[Willowy]

Cats can't absorb the vitamin A from carrots. . .or even from beta carotene in general. They can only absorb vitamin A from animal sources. So I wonder if that guy maybe knows more about raw feeding dogs (which is pretty usual).

It's great to have a place that will grind your meat for you! I just wouldn't take his word for everything if he didn't even know about the carrot thing :tongue2:. Thighs are about 20% bone, and 10% is the target amount, so adding equal parts of boneless meat to the bone-in thighs should be about right. Too much bone will cause constipation, and too little can cause looose stools, so you'll know if you have the percentages right by looking in the litterbox :lol3:.

I'm sure you'll get a lot more advice! There's a lot of very knowledgable people on this forum.

 

[whollycat]

Well, kitties can't process/convert much if any nutrients from non-meat sources, so the carrots for vitamin A would not be right. Me thinks he's equating kitties to doggies.

The liver, on the other hand, is a good source of Vit A and D (as are egg yolks)--and they are from sources that are bioavailable for kitties.

In addition to taurine (also in the hearts, but I always add extra anyway at around 750-1000mg per pound or two [you can't overdose this important sulfonic amino acid]), the only supplements you need are a B-Complex (like Jarrow's B-Right capsules) and Vit E (no-soy version in capsules--helps keep the fat in the meat from going rancid). Also either Krill Oil or Salmon Oil (again, the Vit E helps those to not go rancid), and raw egg yolks (NO whites, just yolks). I sometimes add the supplements at feeding time if I didn't add when I ground the mix. I do wait and add Krill Oil at feeding time. So you see, you don't need his "vitamin blend" at all. But would be great to have a list of what is in it.

Aw yes, your heart was in the right place. I give ya a big ole 'A' for effort and making the first steps toward a better diet for your babies! 

 

[ldg]

Well, kitties can't process/convert much if any nutrients from non-meat sources, so the carrots for vitamin A would not be right. Me thinks he's equating kitties to doggies. The liver, on the other hand, is a good source of Vit A and D (as are egg yolks)--and they are from sources that are bioavailable for kitties.

In addition to taurine (also in the hearts, but I always add extra anyway at around 750-1000mg per pound or two [you can't overdose this important sulfonic amino acid]), the only supplements you need are a B-Complex (like Jarrow's B-Right capsules) and Vit E (no-soy version in capsules--helps keep the fat in the meat from going rancid). Also either Krill Oil or Salmon Oil (again, the Vit E helps those to not go rancid), and raw egg yolks (NO whites, just yolks). I sometimes add the supplements at feeding time if I didn't add when I ground the mix. I do wait and add Krill Oil at feeding time. So you see, you don't need his "vitamin blend" at all. But would be great to have a list of what is in it.

Aw yes, your heart was in the right place. I give ya a big ole 'A' for effort and making the first steps toward a better diet for your babies! 

I don't think any of us didn't make mistakes or had things we needed to "fix" along the way. But one pound of carrots to 9 pounds of meat... I REALLY think that is the problem!

I think WhollyCat nailed it - most raw stores are familiar with dogs, but not necessarily the differences between cats and dogs - and there are quite a few. :nod: Dogs are carnivores, yes, but they have a totally different digestive system than cats. Cats are obligate carnivores, and in the wild, cats don't eat anything other than small mammals and bugs. Dogs will eat vegetables and fruits - cats will not.

I'm a member of the local B.A.R.F. Yahoo group. This is helpful for co-op buying, but 99.9% of the membership is dog raw feeders. And there are a number of stores in NJ that sell raw food they make themselves. But there isn't a single one that sells a (store) homemade food suitable for a cat.


Here are several articles highlighting the nutritional differences between cats and dogs:

http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/The_Essential_PUFA_Guide.shtml

Dogs are carnivores but thrive as omnivores as long as their diet is mainly meat-based. ...

Cats are obligate carnivores, meaning they must eat meat, fish, reptiles, amphibians, and birds to live and reproduce. [15] As such, felines have specific metabolic differences from humans and dogs. [11]


- Cats cannot make vitamin A from beta-carotene and require preformed vitamin A from animal sources.

- Felines metabolize carbohydrates poorly and can neither tolerate nor thrive on a high-carbohydrate diet.

- Cats have high protein requirements but cannot easily replace protein in the diet with other energy sources to conserve body protein. In starvation conditions, cats waste their own muscles in a matter of days.

- The amino acids arginine and taurine are essential for cats. Lack of these in the diet rapidly causes blindness and death. Only animal protein provides arginine and taurine at the levels cats require.

Naturally, feline PUFA metabolism is strictly carnivorous. Cats do not eat fruit, vegetables, nuts, or seeds in their natural diet and have no need for vegetable oils, either. Cats lack some of the enzymes that enable humans and dogs to convert LA to LC-PUFAs. Because cats cannot synthesize AA, their daily requirement for AA is so high that it must be provided in the diet. [12]

PUFA - Polyunsaturated fatty acids

(Providing meat/bones/organs will meet their AA need).




http://suite101.com/article/the-role-of-carbohydrates-as-nutrients-in-the-diet-of-dogs--cats-a262422
(I added comments after the statements in bold)

Differences in Carbohydrate Metabolism and Nutrient Needs Between the Dog and the Cat

In the dog, the addition of carbohydrates to the diet can make it easier for the pet to meet the nutritional need for glucose without using protein as an energy source. This can spare protein for more important usages, such as maintaining and repairing body tissues, and result in a more efficient use of protein sources.

In the cat, the metabolism of proteins and carbohydrates are a bit different than in the dogs.

- Cats use hexokinase to metabolize glucose within individual cells, unlike the dog where glucokinase is used. Hexokinase works at a slower rate than glucokinase. This means cats did not evolve to use carbs as a primary energy source. They're ABLE to digest them, but are not designed to use them.

- Cats do not produce amylase in their saliva, as dogs do. Amylase is an enzyme that aids in breaking down carbohydrates. Again, just another sign that cats are not meant to be using carbs as a primary source of energy.

- Cats have lower concentrations of the enzymes that digest carbohydrates than dogs. Another reason there's no need to provide a cat with carbs

- The process of gluconeogenesis in cats is always active, unlike in dogs. This difference in the rate of gluconeogenesis results in an increased protein requirement in the cat versus the dog. Gloconeogenesis is part of the metabolism of protein. In cats, this is ALWAYS active: this means that they cannot go without protein - preferably animal protein - or they will sabotage their own muscles for the protein they need. Dogs can adjust their protein metabolism for a lower intake of protein - cats cannot.

Collectively, these differences mean that cats can convert protein to energy more efficiently than dogs.

As to specific nutritional needs of cats: (You can click on PDF to get the full report for free) http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...972&jid=NRR&volumeId=15&issueId=01&aid=607588

Cats have obligatory requirements for dietary nutrients that are not essential for other mammals. The present review relates these idiosyncratic nutritional requirements to activities of enzymes involved in the metabolic pathways of these nutrients. The high protein requirement of cats is a consequence of the lack of regulation of the aminotransferases of dispensable N metabolism and of the urea cycle enzymes. The dietary requirements for taurine and arginine are consequences of low activities of two enzymes in the pathways of synthesis that have a negative multiplicative effect on the rate of synthesis. Cats have obligatory dietary requirements for vitamin D and niacin which are the result of high activities of enzymes that catabolise precursors of these vitamins to other compounds. The dietary requirement for pre-formed vitamin A appears to result from deletion of enzymes required for cleavage and oxidation of carotenoids. The n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) requirements have not been defined but low activities of desaturase enzymes indicate that cats may have a dietary need for pre-formed PUFA in addition to those needed by other animals to maintain normal plasma concentrations.

All of this is to say.... cats need meat/bones/organs, and not veggies or plant-based anything.

WhollyCat is right about the store owner not being familiar with the needs of cats vs dogs. You might be able to help that person and other kitties!

So it's best to look up recipes for cat ground raw food rather than rely on someone familiar with the needs of dogs.

I LOVE that you have a store that will make ground mixes to order! But I'd recommend specifying the meat/bones/organs and the amounts you'd like to use, take that home, and add your own supplements.


Recipes:

http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition/making-raw-cat-food-for-do-it-yourselfers
http://www.holisticat.com/rawrecipe.html
http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/diet_guide.html
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

My only suggestion is skip the recipes that recommend any type of vegetable.

I do provide my cats with a krill or salmon oil supplement daily (added at the time of the meal), and a (human acidophilus) probiotic daily.

 

[whollycat]

My only suggestion is skip the recipes that recommend any type of vegetable.

Great info, Laurie.

Just my observations on this part...I have found with my kitties that I need to provide a fiber source or they get constipated. It doesn't matter if it is plain meat and no added calcium (for a few days when I've run out of meat/bones to grind) or meat with bones. They will get constipated. They totally dislike veggies, so I use psyllium powder (or organic rice bran w/extra taurine) and extra water.

Each kitty is different and some may not need the addition of veggies or other fiber source, but with my three for whatever reason, they need this extra fiber from psyllium. If one must include a fiber source from veggies I would keep the amount of veggies at 2.5%-5% or less of the diet. I would also make sure any veggy be one that is safe for kitties long-term. E.g. celery has diuretic properties, so I wouldn't use this. Also, some common veggies can cause allergic reactions in kitties. Never use grains.

I will say that I much prefer psyllium over veggies because too many things to consider when choosing a vegetable.

 

[Willowy]

I just made my ground mix and I did put some canned pumpkin in. I added 6 ounces, which I think was 5%, if I did the math right. I put in a whole chicken (about 5 pounds), 2.5 pounds boneless chicken thighs, a couple pounds of boneless chicken breasts, a couple pounds of beef roast, a pound and a half of chicken livers, a pound of hearts/gizzards, the pumpkin, and I had bought 5 pounds of pork but I wasn't paying attention and it had bones, so that went to the dogs and I panicked and added whatever boneless meat I had in the freezer :lol3:. So it was very unscientific and probably not as balanced as I intended. Next time I'll manage it better. But the kitties love it!

Anyway, that was rambling :tongue2:. The point was that I did put some pumpkin in for fiber, so don't totally dismiss all veggies. But some of those recipes have a LOT of veggies. . .

 

[ldg]

Great info, Laurie. :rub: Just my observations on this part...I have found with my kitties that I need to provide a fiber source or they get constipated...

Each kitty is different and some may not need the addition of veggies or other fiber source, but with my three for whatever reason, they need this extra fiber from psyllium. If one must include a fiber source from veggies I would keep the amount of veggies at 2.5%-5% or less of the diet. I would also make sure any veggy be one that is safe for kitties long-term....

Anyway, that was rambling :tongue2:. The point was that I did put some pumpkin in for fiber, so don't totally dismiss all veggies. But some of those recipes have a LOT of veggies. . .

Point taken! Yes, there is a place for veggies in the diet. :nod:

Many commercial raw manufacturers include vegetables of some sort. Most restrict it, as you both point out, to 5% or less of the diet, but some do go as high as 15% (Aunt Jeni's). :nod:

 

[auntie crazy]

Not to take this thread too far or too long off topic, but to be perfectly clear for the new folks... no healthy cat, with a strong, healthy digestive system, needs fiber to maintain stool consistency when eating a balanced raw diet. It's only on those occasions when the cat's digestive system has been compromised (usually from a long period on kibble) and all attempts to find an acceptable balance of bone and meat have failed, that adding fiber should be considered. And even then, fiber doesn't address the underlying problem, it only corrects the symptoms.

Eventually, as the cat's system heals, the fiber supplements should become unnecessary. Periodically, the cat should be allowed to go off the fiber, while the bone and meat balance is tweak-tested, to see if that point has been reached.

Sadly, there are likely some cats that may never reach that point, but they are not the norm.

AC