Calcium powder for pets

[my-boy-jasper]

I'm currently feeding a mix of canned, commercial raw, and frankenprey to Jasper (9mths old). As I'm sure many here can relate, the whole bone ratio issue is doing my head in and is holding me back from feeding more homemade raw. Ideally, I would like to feed only bone in meals, but just can't trust that I'm getting it right. So I would like to feed some bone-in and some boneless.

I live in Australia and there really isn't much around for those who want to feed their cats raw. I'm so jealous that you guy's in the states have complete supplements like tcfeline. Anyway, I've found a calcium supplement for pets available in Australia. It claims to be suitable for raw fed cats and dogs. I wanted to post it here and see if any you amazingly well informed raw feeders have come across this or similar products before. It recommends the same dose for cats and dogs and I have no idea if that is normal. I am guessing that this would be used to balance the muscle meat % and the liver and kidney % would be fed in addition?

The product is called Mavlab balanced calcium powder. It's reasonably priced at $11 for 250gm. The info from the product description is as follows.

Composition  - each kg contains calcium 363 g (as carbonate 970g), phosphorus 13g (as sodium Tripolyphosphate 50g), cholecalciferol 2,000 microgram (vitamin D3 80,000IU).

Indications: Calcium and vitamin D3 supplement for dogs, cats and horses; aid in correcting the calcium to phosphorus ratio in meat and grain diets.

Dosage and administration: Dogs, cats. 1 measure (4g)/500g meat fed. Horses. Grain diet: 1 measure/400g of grain fed; bran diet: 2 measures (8g)/400g of bran fed.

Thanks.

 

[tammyp]

This is very interesting!  I'll be watching the replies...

 

[my-boy-jasper]

Hi tammyp

 I actually thought of you writing this, lol.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Silly question, but have you considered just making your own egg shell powder. That's what lots of people do for their calcium supplement.  I know @LDG has written up how to do it (at least I think so

), but I think you just bake the eggshells for about 30minutes in your oven, then put them in a clean coffee grinder and turn them into powder. 

As to that composition of the Mavlab, I honestly don't know, since I use Call of the Wild or Alnutrin.  I'm guessing one of the raw geniuses will be along shortly to help you out.  Can you order stuff via Amazon down there?

 

[vball91]

Here's the thread on using eggshell calcium. You can easily make your own. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs

 

[peaches08]

I'm not one of the raw experts by any means, but I'd like to vouch for the eggshell powder as an easy and cheap calcium source. I make Dr. Pierson's chicken thighs recipe and use a lot of eggs when making it, so I end up with a lot of shells to make powder with. So easy to use and store, and practically free!

 

[mschauer]

 
Composition  - each kg contains calcium 363 g (as carbonate 970g), phosphorus 13g (as sodium Tripolyphosphate 50g), cholecalciferol 2,000 microgram (vitamin D3 80,000IU).

Indications: Calcium and vitamin D3 supplement for dogs, cats and horses; aid in correcting the calcium to phosphorus ratio in meat and grain diets.

Dosage and administration: Dogs, cats. 1 measure (4g)/500g meat fed. Horses. Grain diet: 1 measure/400g of grain fed; bran diet: 2 measures (8g)/400g of bran fed.

Thanks.

I did a quick calculation with 500 g of chicken thigh and 4 g of the MavLab and the Ca came out to 1.5:1. I'd call that good. And I like the added vitamin D. I've seen some reports that a vitamin D deficiency may be at the root of some pet illnesses and the amount of vit D in the MavLab isn't excessive.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

 
Silly question, but have you considered just making your own egg shell powder. That's what lots of people do for their calcium supplement.  I know @LDG has written up how to do it (at least I think so

), but I think you just bake the eggshells for about 30minutes in your oven, then put them in a clean coffee grinder and turn them into powder.

As to that composition of the Mavlab, I honestly don't know, since I use Call of the Wild or Alnutrin.  I'm guessing one of the raw geniuses will be along shortly to help you out.  Can you order stuff via Amazon down there?

Not a silly question at all. Yes I have considered it though haven't done much reading on it. I've only just decided that bone-in every meal is going to lead me to a nervous breakdown and that a supplement is the way to go. Eggshell certainly sounds like the common sense way to go, I agree. It's free and seems pretty user friendly. I don't think it's available commercially in Australia so I would have to make it. But to be honest, I think it puts my mind at ease to use a commercial product formulated for use in raw diets. It's probably basic marketing psychology, lol, if someone in a white coat was selling it I'd be all for it

 If the vet ever questions me, at least I can say "look, it's made for this purpose, I followed the directions". Dumb reason I know, but it's sort of reassuring. That said, I'm still sceptical as I see some really dodgy products for animal health. I really really wish someone in Australia would come out with a complete formula like Alnutrin etc. Sigh.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

 
I did a quick calculation with 500 g of chicken thigh and 4 g of the MavLab and the Ca came out to 1.5:1. I'd call that good. And I like the added vitamin D. I've seen some reports that a vitamin D deficiency may be at the root of some pet illnesses and the amount of vit D in the MavLab isn't excessive.

Thanks. That's interesting about vitamin D. I only read about vitamin D toxicity last night and was worried this product may contribute to that if anything. I will look into vitamin D deficiency further.

You inspired me to run my own calculations using the USDA database. That hadn't even occurred to me.

500gm Chicken breast, skinless - CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1475mg calcium and 1117mg phosphorus = 1.3:1

500gm Chicken gizzard - CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1505mg calcium and 792mg phosphorus = 1.9:1

500gm Lamb heart - CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1480mg calcium and 927mg phosphorus = 1.6:1

500gm Beef, composite of trimmed retail cuts, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 1/8" fat, choice - CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1485mg calcium and 932mg phosphorus = 1.6:1

500gm Beef, flank, steak, separable lean only, trimmed to 0" fat, select = CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1555mg calcium and 1062mg phosphorus = 1.5:1

500gm Turkey, retail parts, breast, meat only - CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1495mg calcium and 977mg phosphorus = 1.5:1

500gm chicken heart - CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1510mg calcium and 937mg phosphorus = 1.6:1

500gm wild rabbit - CaP corrected with Mavlab = 1510mg calcium and 1182mg phosphorus = 1.3:1

So some are too high, especially chicken gizzards, while chicken breast and rabbit are quite good. So I ran it again, this time adding chicken liver and beef kidney (all I've used so far), without correcting for the addition of the organs. I made up some basic recipes just for this purpose, I have no idea if I put too much heart in. If I ran the calculations correctly, it turns out quite well actually. So far, I like this product.

1. Recipe = 500gm chicken thigh, 27gm chicken liver, 27gm beef kidney, 4gm calcium powder

CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1491 calcium and 1127 phosphorus = 1.3:1

2. Recipe = 300gm chicken thigh, 200gm lamb heart, 27gm chicken liver, 27gm beef kidney, 4gm calcium powder

CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1489 calcium and 1107 phosphorus = 1.35:1

3. Recipe = 300gm rabbit, 200gm lamb heart, 27gm chicken liver, 27gm beef kidney, 4gm calcium powder

CaP ratio corrected with Mavlab = 1503 calcium and 1230 phosphorus = 1.2:1

 

[mschauer]

Personally I think any Ca of less than 2 is fine but I understand if you would prefer it lower. Using chicken gizzards by themselves makes it pretty high but do you really use that much of them?

I looked at the vit D level also. It was only about 1000 IU/kg DM or 2x the AAFCO minimum recommended of 500 IU/kg DM. The AAFCO has the maximum safe amount as 10,000 IU/kg DM although the latest NRC and FEDIAF (European equivalent of the AAFCO) have it at 30,000. BTW the NRC and FEDIAF also have lower minimums, about 250 IU/kg DM.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

It's fine if it sits anywhere in the recommended range but I'm just thinking of having some wriggle room due to variations in meat sources. Anywhere between 1.3 - 1.7 would be fine to me I think. I don't know how close Australian meat is to the analysis from the USDA database. Pretty close I imagine. I found one article that showed Australian lean beef to have a lower ratio when corrected, but still within the range. I'm new to all this so I don't know what cause fluctuations and how widely they vary. No I wouldn't feed that much gizzard - though Jasper would eat it anyway, loves the stuff - but I still have bags in the freezer which are about half gizzards. The addition of vitamin D is likely a good thing. Looking at chicken and beef, for example, there isn't even the daily recommended limit. Which begs the question, where do cats naturally get vitamin D?

I have two other raw related questions. Rather than open a new thread, I'll put them here. Why do cats need kidney or other organs? I assume it's for extra vitamins, like B vitamins? And I bought some chicken "spare ribs" the other day, couldn't find necks. Is this the same as "breast bone"? I brought them home and packaged them for freezing. They feel like they have one quite solid bone running through them, and on some there are very sharp pointy ends. Even if I can cut off the sharp bits, are these ok to give?

 

[tammyp]

I think 'chicken ribs' (if that is what they mean by 'spare ribs') here in Australia is the upper section of the wing - ie, with the wing tip cut off.  There'll usually be two bones running thru (one a bit thicker than the other). so not sure if it is the same.  Maybe try to visualise a whole roasting chicken, and this might help you figure out what part it is?  By the way, I'm sooo jealous about jasper eating everything!  Ava, our 9month old, got really sick at about 3 months, and has had a limited and slow introducing diet since - and she USED to gollup into any new foods, but now it's all a challenge (besides rabbit, rabbit, rabbit) sigh.  Kato meantime is also not happy with organs.  So I've just found a 'balancing' solution of dried liver mixed with some other treats that have 25% liver in them.  It's been a journey - so I'm jealous of your little gobbler!

 

[my-boy-jasper]

Ok, so do you think I just give it to him and watch? I've never handled chicken (whole or parts) before Jasper so I'm clueless. Totally confused about whether some chicken bones are too tough or not. Yeah, Jasper is a little dream for raw feeding. He's only had chicken, lamb, kangaroo, and beef though. He loves liver, kidney, gizzards, heart, whatever! Kangaroo was the first thing he got and he just about sucked it up in one go, lol. I'm going to go to the Vic markets and see what more interesting meats and organs I can find. I'm expecting rabbit to be expensive though I'm keen for him to try it. Poor Ava, sounds like she has a bit of food phobia after her illness. Humans only need to get sick once off a food to develop an aversion, I suppose all animals are similar.

Jasper's pretty finicky about canned food. I tried some 'premium' brands and he looked at them with disdain. The canned I've been feeding lately is Nature's Gift, which Jasper really likes. Tammyp, have you seen that one? I know you feed mostly raw but a little canned right? Its a supermarket brand. This is the ingredients of the kangaroo flavour - fresh kangaroo, omega 3 & 6, antioxidants, gelling agents, calcium, vitamins B1, B3, B6, C, E, D12 & D3, folic acid and taurine. It looks ok for canned hey? But I feel like there has to be a catch. The website says they mostly use guar gum as the gelling agent. I think I might email them and ask what else they use i.e. carrageenan. Sorry, I know this is a raw thread and here I am talking about canned.

 

[tammyp]

Yeah, I know about Nature's Gift.  It's pretty good as far as I can tell.  I did write to them, and yes, they do use carageenan.  Unfortunately, my cats are not fond of it, especially the roo one!  I donated several to a cat shelter for that reason, after the company shipped me a whole stack in error.  They are more ok on the chicken one, the one that also contains fish.  BUT we went totally fish free while trying to sort Ava out.  And I have a bit of a suspicion that chicken is not suiting her much either.  At the moment, I feed her just one type of can - Artemis turkey.  You might want to check out the Artemis one too (in pet shops or online), although it is pricey.  I have also tried Ziwipeak (pricey too), but she doesn't like it that much (I'm sure she'd like the ones with fish in it more, but sticking to sans fish).  She is totally nuts for Ziwipeak 'raw without the thaw' or the 'Goodcat treats', so this is how I get her to eat liver (just a tiny few pieces of the ziwipeak gets her eating).

The Vic Markets is great, although I'm a bit suspicious of some of the shops.  I could get brains there at one time (sheep), but unless the man is there, I can no longer get them to sell me just one - they want to sell me a whole tub.  Be careful to ask about whether anything has been frozen, as some freeze then thaw.  We get most of our meat from Nifra poultry (http://www.qvm.com.au/shops-and-stalls/nifra-poultry), which is all free range.  We like animals to be well treated, hence this choice, but of course it is more costly.  The lady (Tula) there knows us now, and we call her to make sure she has what we need (she only gets a limited amount of rabbit).  You can get a whole rabbit from her (no organs or innards) for $13.50, and they will cut it into pieces.  We do 12 pieces, and Kato and Ava get a chunk every night as their 'bone-in' meal. 

As to giving Jasper the chicken rib things you've got, I'd give it a go. If you are concerned, just keep an eye on the first one or three.  I think you'll find Jasper deals with it fine.  Chicken bones (and also rabbit) are softer thinner bones.  The big bones, like thigh bones, are probably too thick, they will likely eat around, which is still really good for their teeth.  It's funny watching them gnaw and rip, holding it with their paws, just like a lion!  If you think a bone is too big for them, bash it up a bit with a clever - same as cutting up a chicken neck.  But most of the chicken and rabbit bones can and will be eaten, particularly wing, neck, rib.

 

[mschauer]

 
 The addition of vitamin D is likely a good thing. Looking at chicken and beef, for example, there isn't even the daily recommended limit. Which begs the question, where do cats naturally get vitamin D?

You have to remember we are creating an artificial diet for our cats. We can talk about feeding "prey model" all we want but anyone who looks at a pile of meat,bone, liver and "other organ" and says "That's a mouse" is only kidding themselves. A cats true natural diet is composed of live, whole prey that has itself been raised on its natural diet. The bits and pieces we buy and put together aren't ever going to be exactly the same as feeding a natural diet. Whatever the source of a particular nutrient in a cats natural diet the hopeful equivalent we provide may not supply it in the same quantity. 

As for vit D specifically, did you consider what I said about the FEDIAF and NRC recommendations being lower? They are based on more current research than the AAFCO recommendations. Also, in a recipe I just recently analyzed that came out well above even the AAFCO recommendation most of the vit D came from a pork shoulder roast.  You also need to remember that that if you get nutrient information out of the USDA database there may not be data for all nutrients for a given item. For instance, there is no data available for vit D in pork heart.

And, you also need to remember that the AAFCO, NRC and FEDIAF do not represent the definitive nutritional needs of cats. They are guidelines. A food that doesn't meet those recommendations is not necessarily a nutritionally incomplete diet. The recommendations give us a way to have a vague understanding of which nutrients we may want to take a closer look at in making our food more complete.

In my opinion we can confidently say that a food that comes close to any of the recommendations is more than likely a pretty darn good food for our kitties.

But, I don't mean to be casting doubt on the safety of feeding foods that haven't been subjected to a comparison against some set of nutrient recommendations. There are different approaches to creating a home made cat diet.

 Why do cats need kidney or other organs? I assume it's for extra vitamins, like B vitamins?

Certainly vitamins but they are also a very good source of iron. There tends to be more blood trapped in organs then in muscle meat. The lack of blood is a big difference between a cats true natural diet and the one we feed.

 

[my-boy-jasper]

Sorry I stopped replying. I wanted to give it some thought. Yes I did consider the FEDIAF and NRC minimum recommendations for vitamin D being lower at 250 IU/kg. When I looked at items on the USDA database and didn't see vit D listed I just assumed that was because it was negligible. But I may well have been wrong to assume that since I now see sometimes nutrient are listed as 0. In fact, chicken liver is listed as having 0 vitamin D.

My initial rough calculations on the vitamin D content were wrong because I didn't consider that the guidelines are done on a dry matter basis. I looked at the FEDIAF document on nutritional guidelines. When they say dry matter do they mean 0% water? Also, if someone could direct me to the equation for converting dry matter basis to include water that would be very helpful. I can see that the USDA database has water % included in their lists.

 

[mschauer]

 
Sorry I stopped replying. I wanted to give it some thought. Yes I did consider the FEDIAF and NRC minimum recommendations for vitamin D being lower at 250 IU/kg. When I looked at items on the USDA database and didn't see vit D listed I just assumed that was because it was negligible. But I may well have been wrong to assume that since I now see sometimes nutrient are listed as 0. In fact, chicken liver is listed as having 0 vitamin D.

Generally when a nutrient isn't listed in a USDA database entry it is because it isn't known how much if any the item has of that nutrient. It may have some of the nutrient it may have none. If the nutrient is listed but with a value of 0 it *should* mean it is known that the item contains none of the nutrient. I've found that to be true in most cases but there are exceptions. For instance I'm pretty certain chicken liver does contain vit D just as beef and turkey liver do. Until the last couple of releases the USDA database had very few animal based entries that included information on vit D content. The last couple of releases have corrected that to an extent. The database has more complete information for beef ingredients and given that my beef recipe that contains beef muscle meat, beef liver and beef kidney analyses as having more than enough vit D I assume my other, non-beef, recipes that use a similar mix of organs do also and I think that is a safe assumption.

They issue a new USDA database release about once a year and I really look forward to the improvements I've been seeing with each one. 

 My initial rough calculations on the vitamin D content were wrong because I didn't consider that the guidelines are done on a dry matter basis. I looked at the FEDIAF document on nutritional guidelines. When they say dry matter do they mean 0% water? Also, if someone could direct me to the equation for converting dry matter basis to include water that would be very helpful. I can see that the USDA database has water % included in their lists.

Yes, when they talk about how much of a nutrient is needed per some amount on a dry matter basis they mean is needed per an amount that contains no water. When it comes to nutrients it is best to calculate everything on a dry matter basis rather than on an as fed (AF - with water) basis.

If you want to see if your recipe meets the FEDIAF vit D requirement of 250 IU/kg DM:

IF:

your recipe weight: 3000 g (as fed)

your recipe moisture: 73%

your recipe total vit D content :  630 IU 

Your recipe contains 630 IU / 3 kg AF or 210 IU / kg AF

On a dry matter basis:

DM = 3000 g AF * (100% - 73%) 

DM = 810 g or 0.81 kg

So your hypothectical recipe contains 630 IU / 0.81 kg DM or 777 IU / kg DM

 

[my-boy-jasper]

Thankyou mschauer! If you didn't give these examples I would have thrown it all in the too hard basket. I've had a go at working out the vitamin D levels using the USDA database based on a simple recipe of 90% chicken thigh, 5% turkey liver and 5% beef kidney.

First I calculated it without adjusting for the Mavlab calcium powder and then did it with the powder. Of course, without the powder the CaP ratio is unbalanced but it is just for comparison to see how much difference the powder makes to vitamin D levels.

The calculations are below. To the best of my knowledge it's correct but I'm putting it here in case anyone wants to look and point out errors or just reassure me it's ok. I got an analysis of 244IU vitamin D / kg DM without the powder and 2,643IU vitamin D / kg DM with the powder. The FEDIAF minimum recommended amount is 250IU/kg DM, the legal maximum is 2270IU/kg DM and the nutritional maximum = 30,000IU/kg DM. Mschauer's post above notes that the AAFCO maximum safe amount is 10,000IU/kg DM.

Vitamin D calculations from the USDA database – 1kg weights

Chicken, broilers or fryers, dark meat, thigh, meat only, raw - 1kg

= 10 IU vitamin D

= 762g of water = 76% water & 24% dry matter

1000g AF = 240g DM

10 * (1000/240) = 42IU/kg DM

Adjust with Mavlab balanced calcium powder which contains vitamin D3 = 80,000IU / kg.

1 measure = 4g per 500g food = 250 measures per kg. 80,000/250 = 320IU per measure. 8gs added to 1kg of chicken thigh = 640IU.

This changes the content to –

= 650 IU vitamin D

= 762g of water = 76% water & 24% dry matter

1000g AF = 240g DM

650 * (1000/240) = 2708IU/kg DM

Turkey, liver, all classes, raw – 1kg

= 500IU vitamin D

= 755g water = 76% water & 24% dry matter

1000g AF = 240g DM

500 * (1000/240) = 2083IU/kg DM

Beef, variety meats and by-products, kidneys, raw – 1kg

= 450IU vitamin D

= 779g water = 78% water = 22% dry matter

1000g AF = 220g DM

450 * (1000/220) = 2045IU/kg DM

Recipe consisting of 900g chicken thigh, 50g turkey liver & 50g beef kidney =

Before adding Mavlab powder -

90% of 42IU = 38IU

5% of 2083IU = 104IU

5% of 2045IU = 102IU

Total = 244IU vitamin D / kg DM

After adding Mavlab powder -  

90% of 2708IU = 2437IU

5% of 2083IU = 104IU

5% of 2045IU = 102IU

Total = 2,643IU vitamin D / kg DM