Introduction of the German Longhair Cat

Thank you for your compliments!

Thanks for posting the interesting history and photos of beautiful cats showing their distinctive type.    in some ways reminiscent of the old Persians from mid 20th century, but these Deutsche Langhaar cats definitely have a longer nose and less round head than those Persians did even before the Persian type became more exaggerated.   It is interesting to see how the longhairs diverged into these different types. 

Possible outcrosses... what about Siberian?

  or longhaired cats of Anatolia ?  that would be going back to the original Angoras.

 I breed & show Thai cats in TICA,  from pure Siamese / Wichienmaat ancestry.       Wow,  this thread is like a meeting of the World Cat Congress.   we have here represented  WCF, FIFé,  GCCF, CFA and TICA.

If you look at pics of longhair cats at the beginning of the 20th century you will see, that many of them had nothing in common with Persians, even not with Persians of the 50ies. In Germany they were called Angoras and you could find Angoras of all types. The only common feature was the long hair. Therefore Prof. Schwangart (he was a zoologist) put on two standards for two different types. One was the Persian, the other the Deutsch Langhaar. On the WCF website there is a breed presentation and on page 8 are pics of old Persians. Schwangart himself stressed that both breeds should be led to consistent looks and mixed types should be avoided. Unfortunately the pooling together of Persian and DLH after WWII meant a big step backward for the DLH. Nowadays breeders have to deal with the same problem. We need to outcross, but have to keep the right type. Maybe Siberians will be used for outcrossing in the future. They share the same genepool. The original Angora cats from Turkey are genetic distinct from the cats in Middle and Northern Europe although some of them have a nice type.

I love the Thai very much. They look like the Siam of my childhood. They are becoming very popular in Germany. Can you show the Thai already in TICA or has it still experimental status?

maewkaew said:

 
Thanks for posting the interesting history and photos of beautiful cats showing their distinctive type.    in some ways reminiscent of the old Persians from mid 20th century, but these Deutsche Langhaar cats definitely have a longer nose and less round head than those Persians did even before the Persian type became more exaggerated.   It is interesting to see how the longhairs diverged into these different types. 

Possible outcrosses... what about Siberian?

  or longhaired cats of Anatolia ?  that would be going back to the original Angoras.

 I breed & show Thai cats in TICA,  from pure Siamese / Wichienmaat ancestry.       Wow,  this thread is like a meeting of the World Cat Congress.   we have here represented  WCF, FIFé,  GCCF, CFA and TICA.

Click to expand...

And don't you just wish more of us were likely to see these cats in the fur other than those showing to WCF standards in and around Germany?      

@maewkaew, intereseting ideas for outcrossing.  I do wonder what varieties are currenlty being considered.

They are all so cute! I love all the color variations. Their all so stunning!

Sinthari said:

 
If you look at pics of longhair cats at the beginning of the 20th century you will see, that many of them had nothing in common with Persians, even not with Persians of the 50ies. In Germany they were called Angoras and you could find Angoras of all types. The only common feature was the long hair. Therefore Prof. Schwangart (he was a zoologist) put on two standards for two different types. One was the Persian, the other the Deutsch Langhaar. On the WCF website there is a breed presentation and on page 8 are pics of old Persians. Schwangart himself stressed that both breeds should be led to consistent looks and mixed types should be avoided. Unfortunately the pooling together of Persian and DLH after WWII meant a big step backward for the DLH. Nowadays breeders have to deal with the same problem. We need to outcross, but have to keep the right type. Maybe Siberians will be used for outcrossing in the future. They share the same genepool. The original Angora cats from Turkey are genetic distinct from the cats in Middle and Northern Europe although some of them have a nice type.

I love the Thai very much. They look like the Siam of my childhood. They are becoming very popular in Germany. Can you show the Thai already in TICA or has it still experimental status?

Click to expand...

I'm so glad you love the Thai too.   BTW my young queen who is in my little avatar photo ( shot when she was about 10 months old)  has a German grandmother. 

  We have been showing Thais in Championship classes in TICA since the 1st of May 2010. (Before that they spent 3 years being shown extensively in the New Breed classes as part of  TICA's  "Championship Advancement" program.)    I was at the show on that very first day they started in Championship;  in fact my cat was the first Thai to be judged.   It was so exciting to have the real old style Siamese cats who looked like their Grand Champion ancestors of 50+ years ago,  once again back in the show halls competing and able to be judged by their own standard.    In North America this had not been possible for decades.  Well,  they could have been shown as Siamese but they would not win anything and might even be disqualified for "lack of merit"  since they didn't fit the current standard ( and interpretation of the standard) that had changed  to the more extreme version of the breed type.    Not that I don't love the "modern" Siamese, too.   I love them all.  I just have a special place in my heart for the original.

  I very much like the TICA standard because it's been very carefully written based on serious study of the old descriptions and photographs of early Siamese and on the way they still look in their native country and the opinion of breeders in Thailand as to how the cats should look.   

  That first year in Championship, within 6 months  my blue point boy Sammy became the first  TICA Thai Supreme .  by the end of the year 2 others had joined him;  all 3 were also Regional Winners.    Now I think we're up to about 15 cats who have attained Supreme level titles (which I've heard that only about 3% of cats shown in TICA manage to get),  and we've had several more Regional Winners,  in both Europe and America.  OK  I'll stop bragging now   but I am very proud of our cats. 

My passion for preservation of the Old Style Siamese  makes me empathize with your work  preserving another sort of old breed (  1930s is pretty old for cat breeds! )  I had heard of the German Longhair in some old publications,  but I never knew much about them,  and I found that presentation very interesting.  ( I wish there was a Back button within the slide show,  though.)

I definitely do see they're quite different from Persians of the 1950s.    Some of the photos  on http://www.deutschlanghaarkatzen.de   did remind me a bit of some old Persians,   but I didn't mean to imply a strong similarity in type.

    I see more similarity to Siberian.   & to a lesser extent  I can also imagine that perhaps some "pet quality" Norwegian Forest Cats might make a good outcross.   

How does the coat type compare with these  breeds? 

But really your DLHs are their own type.  maybe you see your greatest source to broaden the gene pool of the Aschemeier cats is from random-bred longhair cats in Germany as foundation DLH?   Hmmm... it would be neat if you could do what the Norskskogkattring did in the 1970s and put out a notice to people who had unaltered Skogkatten,  to bring the cats to be evaluated by a Breed Committee to be part of the breeding program.  

   I see the standard calls for a Roman nose .   At least  in English,  this can have 2 different meanings.   Both refer to a convex curve,   but in one meaning ( which is the one that surely must be meant in the DLH standard)   this curve only starts BELOW the 'bridge" of the nose....  while the other meaning is a longer convex curve including the bridge of the nose - for example think of a Cornish Rex ,  or a Bull Terrier,  or  some  Orientals  and "modern" Siamese.  

I don't have exact profile views of the cats in the above photos,  but  it looks like these cats have a gentle concave curve at the bridge of the nose.  It may be that the phrase in the DLH standard  "The gently sloping profile slightly curves down to a Roman nose...."  is enough to convey the meaning.   But for another example,  the Birman standard in TICA,  which also calls for a Roman nose,  specifies  "There is a change of direction between the forehead and the roman nose."    So it just may be something to think about.

  Just as a general comment,  I would say,  be careful with the development of the breed,  about whom you trust with breeding cats  and about rules as to allowed outcrosses, registration and about making sure the standard is specific enough to avoid a great variation in type based on differing interpretations.    No doubt you folks have thought about these things.    I think visual tools like the Prototype illustration from 2011 , and of course photos of cats considered excellent examples of the breed,  are also a great help.    The prototype illustation shows a flat forehead,  and i saw that on one of the old photos as well as on a photo of a foundation cat .  Maybe that should be actually stated directly in the standard.  "Gently sloping" might sound  like it could mean a gentle curve .

BTW,  after the Thai,  TICA  made it possible for breeds recognized by 2 other members of the World Cat Congress  to get Championship status sooner,  by a "fast track" route where they may jump right to the Advanced New Breed level,  which is just one step away from Championship.    They also decreased the number of breeders required from what it used to be when we had to do it.    I know you are not ready for that yet in this breed , but something to consider for the future.    I  am just being selfish;   I'd love to see some of these cats out at the shows! 

maewkaew, first I want to thank you for your detailed post. I will try to answer your questions. The coat of the DLH is silkier than the coat of NFO or SIB. Regarding foundations - it's not easy to find cats of the right type. I hope that we will find some more good foundations in the future in rural areas especially in the south of Germany and Austria. And you are right, that the standard could be more exact. I like the TICA standards because they are very well put. I hope we will read such a TICA standard for the DLH in the future. In fact the profile should be similar to the Birman profile.

Thank you for the lovely pictures, they are very very pretty, kinda remind me of a Siberian, lol. 

Something that concerns me, probably because I have sad direct experience with it. You said "most" breeders test, for gene pool, and ultrasound of heart and kidney. Since you have a small breeder pool, and it sounds like you guys are trying hard, to do it right, being careful and selective.  I was wondering, why, "all" breeders don't test, since the Persian is prone to HCM and PKD. Maine Coons and Ragdolls are very prone, and Persian on a smaller scale, but still prone.  Do you do the HCM blood test? Do the other breeders? If not, why not?

Thats why I was asking about what breeds are in the background, as many seem to have genetic issues, which, in my opinion, are man made, and in CFA at least, they don't seem to be inclined, to eradicate it, altho, they are better, than they used to be, a few years ago. 

CFA does not mandate testing, I feel they should, my only complaint about CFA, they don't make the breeders police their selfs, like AQHA (Quarter Horse) does, when they found they had an issue with HYPP. AQHA mandated testing, positive foals could not be registered. The big boys, big money boys, lost alot of money, so it forced them, to police their own selfs.

I don't know, if the other associations, WCF, Fife, GCCF do.  I do know TICA doesn't. Seems like they would, as they like to butt heads, lol, with what they consider, the stuffy CFA, lol.

It seems like, if you started testing, all the kitties, all the breeders, you could lessen the odds, and it would be a way to head this off.

In TICA, it appears to be some what easier, per say, to introduce a new breed. In CFA, its a long and painfull process, and many a "fistfight" ensues, lol.  Currently, they are trying to introduce Bengals, into the CFA, and its been downright, a very nasty fight, TICA does allow them. 

In the US, DLH refers to Domestic Long Hair, as in, a kitty of unknown parentage, what do you mean, by DLH?

Also interesting, your colors, differ so much, from the CFA defination. Not the actual colors, lol, but what you call them.  Your kinda on the lines, of how TICA does it, lol. 

Wish the German Longhairs were recognized in CFA, ya just might get me away from Maine Coon.  Altho, they would be allowed in HHP, would be kinda interesting, to see if the judges recognize them, and what they do with them.  Do you have red kitties?  

You are so right about testing! I'm happy that at least nearly all breeding cats are tested by the tests panel of catDNAtest.org. The AG DLH is an initiative of breeders to educate about health issues and testing. During the last 2 years the percentage of cats (breeding stock) with US tests for heart and kidneys rose from about 30% to about 75%. In my opinion this should be 100%, but that's life. There are only very few clubs in Germany that demand US testing for some breeds like Maine Coon or British Shorthair.

In German DLH means Deutsch Langhaar and it's the official abbreviation for the breed in WCF. I don't know why they didn't take GLH for German LongHair. I know that in the US it stands for Domestic Longhair and it's indeed confusing. A domestic longhair here would be a HCL = housecat longhair.

In Europe its usual to use the Fife names for colors and it's similar to the way TICA does ist. In common they refer to the genetic background of coloration and markings.

As far as I am aware / can see in information from GCCF, UK does not require breeders to undertake genetic testing but does recommend breed associations consider including this where relevant.  The GCCF policy on accepting new breeds for registration currently states that following preliminary registration of Bengal, they will not consider further hybrid variants from the Asian Leopard Cat, and also no further 'hair deficient' breeds similar to Sphynx.  The Scottish Fold are not currently recognised here due to risks of skeletal abnormalities and associated joint stiffness, and there are no plans to recognise breeds with foreshortened limbs. (source GCCF web site).  

Where health has been a primary concern in developing or preserving a breed type it would seem more likely such breeds would be considered and potentially granted registration within the GCCF regulations (after an equally long drawn out and painful process as one would have with CFA.  As for my own preferences I am another sharing the love of more traditional, older Siamese / Thai and Persian breed apprearances.  Perhaps why I have chosen to live with a Russian Blue and felt imediately drawn to the beautiful profile and build of the German Longhair.