Giardia from raw food??

[Rooker]

Posting a new thread because there is very little about this topic in the forum. I have a 1 1/2 year old domestic long hair cat. I have been feeding him raw chicken recipe ever since he was a kitten, with some additional dry kitten kibble on the side. I read raw food diet is much better for cats because of the higher water contents and also because it is more natural for them. So I just wanted the best for my cat and started making it from scratch every 3 weeks or so. I would freeze the rest in small containers. I made sure to make the raw food exactly accordingly to the recipe.

Ever since I started feeding him the raw food he has been having problems with parasites. First he got tape worm and we successfully got rid of that. But almost a year later now I am finding out that he has giardia. I got him to the vet and they told me it is from the raw food and that a lot of people believe feeding raw is a great option when really, it isn't. The vet told me cats can get giardia from raw food and that I should transition him onto canned food. They also mentioned that the thawing process of the food makes it even more likely to have parasites and bacteria in it.
Another thing they told me is to stop feeding him grain-free kibble as that does not contain enough taurine and is problematic with absorbing it. Which also shocked me because I always read grain-free diet is better for cats?!

I'd love to hear your opinions and experience with this particular issue.
Can giardia really come from human grade raw chicken? Is it too risky to feed my cat raw chicken?
Is grain-free really problematic in terms of enough taurine?

Thanks a lot for any insight.

 

[daftcat75]

I wanted an answer to giardia from raw food too so I threw your subject into Google and out popped a detailed TCS post:
kitten on raw food has giardia

I don't think the giardia is coming from the food. Does your cat get outside at all? Do you have other animals (dog, kids, spouse) who might be bringing the outside in? From the thread there, it sounds like giardia is primarily water-borne and the most common food sources are vegetables irrigated with contaminated water.

 

[Rooker]

I wanted an answer to giardia from raw food too so I threw your subject into Google and out popped a detailed TCS post:
kitten on raw food has giardia

I don't think the giardia is coming from the food. Does your cat get outside at all? Do you have other animals (dog, kids, spouse) who might be bringing the outside in? From the thread there, it sounds like giardia is primarily water-borne and the most common food sources are vegetables irrigated with contaminated water.

No, he is indoor only cat and we only have a dog. It is just strange that my vet was 100% positive it was from the raw food diet.

 

[daftcat75]

It sounds like the most common source of giardia is contaminated water. I suppose there's a way for the dog to pass it to the cat. But that would either require the cat to have access to the dog's stool or getting his nose up in her business like dog's greet each other. It is very unlikely to have come from the raw meat.

Giardia in Cats

Most vets don't have more than a class or two in nutrition. Vets are often wrong when it comes to nutrition. Also the thought that grain-free cat food is deficient in taurine is laughable as if grains were a good source of taurine. They are not. Taurine is most often supplemented in cat food, grain-free or otherwise, because it's important to cats and it's sensitive to cooking, canning, age, etc. I would key in on whether taurine is among the supplements. If it is, carry on. If it's not, put it back. That goes whether it's grain-free, grainy, or canned wet food. Even your homemade recipe likely supplements taurine.

In any case, this seems to be more of an issue with dogs than cats since cat food is almost universally supplemented with taurine.

Grain Free Diets, Taurine Deficiency, and Dilated Cardiomyopathy

 

[Rooker]

The dog and the cat are not in that close of contact, so I doubt he got it from the dog. If not from the diet, then where did he get it? I can't think of anything. And we definitely don't have dirty water here. All the bowls here get deep cleaned very often.
And it's not like we just adopted the cat from a shelter where it is most likely they catch giardia. Definitely a mystery.

The vet said grain-free food doesn't have contents that absorb taurine well. And therefore it lacks taurine. I read an article about it a while ago, but not sure if it has enough evidence to switch foods.

 

[daftcat75]

The dog and the cat are not in that close of contact, so I doubt he got it from the dog. If not from the diet, then where did he get it? I can't think of anything. And we definitely don't have dirty water here. All the bowls here get deep cleaned very often.
And it's not like we just adopted the cat from a shelter where it is most likely they catch giardia. Definitely a mystery.

The vet said grain-free food doesn't have contents that absorb taurine well. And therefore it lacks taurine. I read an article about it a while ago, but not sure if it has enough evidence to switch foods.

Grains have precursor amino acids that dogs can convert to taurine. Cats cannot make taurine this way. This is why taurine is directly supplemented in cat food, and the grain-free argument for cats does not apply.

 

[Beholder]

It is correct that giardia is mainly only found in water sources or other animal's feces. Just out of curiosity since you mentioned other parasites as well, where do you buy your raw chicken from? Do you buy it frozen or grind it up yourself?

 

[She's a witch]

I’m pretty sure my cat got giardia from the vet. Have you been at the vet before it started?
It’s also possible that a cat was infected but didn’t show any symptoms, and they only showed up now. The older the cat/dog, the more possible it is not to have any symptoms, but they may randomly appear, especially if a cat was weaker because of any infection etc.

If you continue to feed raw, be prepared that most vets will blame raw for EVERYTHING. The best would be to switch to raw supporting vets. I noticed that cats only vets are generally raw food friendly, my current certainly is. Your vet seems to have more experience with dogs since he brought the grain free issues.

 

[Rooker]

It is correct that giardia is mainly only found in water sources or other animal's feces. Just out of curiosity since you mentioned other parasites as well, where do you buy your raw chicken from? Do you buy it frozen or grind it up yourself?

We get the chicken from costco and I grind it up and add the vitamins and other supplements, as directed on the recipe.

 

[Rooker]

I’m pretty sure my cat got giardia from the vet. Have you been at the vet before it started?
It’s also possible that a cat was infected but didn’t show any symptoms, and they only showed up now. The older the cat/dog, the more possible it is not to have any symptoms, but they may randomly appear, especially if a cat was weaker because of any infection etc.

If you continue to feed raw, be prepared that most vets will blame raw for EVERYTHING. The best would be to switch to raw supporting vets. I noticed that cats only vets are generally raw food friendly, my current certainly is. Your vet seems to have more experience with dogs since he brought the grain free issues.

My cat hasn't been to the vet for a year before going to this one. So I doubt he got the giardia from the vet... the reason why I noticed he wasn't feeling well was because I found blood in his stool a couple of times. And all that happened very recently too...

 

[Beholder]

We get the chicken from costco and I grind it up and add the vitamins and other supplements, as directed on the recipe.

Do you get it frozen or from the meat section? Grocery store meats often sit around for a long time and are prone to bacteria. Because they're meant to be cooked this usually isn't a problem for humans; it can be a problem for raw feeding though. Most people advise against feeding raw meat from a meat section for this reason, so it's possible the other parasites (but probably not the giardia) came from this. It's best to feed frozen meat or freshly cut meat from the butcher.

 

[minish]

Most vets don't know much about cat food. Most oppose raw for good reason but other types of food also have risk of contamination.
You can make surface cooking before preparing your raw food and keep it in the freezer at least 3 weeks before thawing. It's best to thaw frozen raw food inside the fridge and in daily portions.
I feed minish raw homemade food from time to time and she's known to steal grocery grinded fresh minced meat. She never had internal parasites. I don't know about giardia but I know minish can easily get parasites from chewing on the grass I picked from the side of the road or by simply licking the sole of my shoes.
Your vet is definitely wrong about grain free kibble and taurine. All commercial cat foods contain taurine additives to make sure they get enough. Grain free dry food is not starch free, all contain at least 30 percent non meat ingredients

 

[Rooker]

Do you get it frozen or from the meat section? Grocery store meats often sit around for a long time and are prone to bacteria. Because they're meant to be cooked this usually isn't a problem for humans; it can be a problem for raw feeding though. Most people advise against feeding raw meat from a meat section for this reason, so it's possible the other parasites (but probably not the giardia) came from this. It's best to feed frozen meat or freshly cut meat from the butcher.

We get it sealed in plastic, but not frozen. So it should not contain any parasites I don't think?

 

[Rooker]

Most vets don't know much about cat food. Most oppose raw for good reason but other types of food also have risk of contamination.
You can make surface cooking before preparing your raw food and keep it in the freezer at least 3 weeks before thawing. It's best to thaw frozen raw food inside the fridge and in daily portions.
I feed minish raw homemade food from time to time and she's known to steal grocery grinded fresh minced meat. She never had internal parasites. I don't know about giardia but I know minish can easily get parasites from chewing on the grass I picked from the side of the road or by simply licking the sole of my shoes.
Your vet is definitely wrong about grain free kibble and taurine. All commercial cat foods contain taurine additives to make sure they get enough. Grain free dry food is not starch free, all contain at least 30 percent non meat ingredients

Yeah, I do not freeze the meat before making the raw food recipe for my cat. Plus if I freeze it and thaw it out too much my cat does not like it anymore because it will lose the freshness to it. It's just a mystery to me that an indoor cat caught giardia. My vet was 100% sure it is from the raw food. I am not convinced but it definitely does seem like a possibility since we are clean freaks here and the dog has been tested negative for giardia as well. Very strange to say the least.

 

[She's a witch]

Yeah, I do not freeze the meat before making the raw food recipe for my cat. Plus if I freeze it and thaw it out too much my cat does not like it anymore because it will lose the freshness to it. It's just a mystery to me that an indoor cat caught giardia. My vet was 100% sure it is from the raw food. I am not convinced but it definitely does seem like a possibility since we are clean freaks here and the dog has been tested negative for giardia as well. Very strange to say the least.

He was probably a silent carrier since his kittenhood. This is not unheard of.

 

[Beholder]

We get it sealed in plastic, but not frozen. So it should not contain any parasites I don't think?

It is always possible, but I'm not a scientist so I'm not sure the difference between parasite growth and bacteria growth on old meat. What I do know is that (and what your vet was probably referring to we they mentioned bacteria) non-frozen grocery store meat is extremely prone to bacteria. Again, grocery store meats sit out for a long time. Often dates are changed and temperatures are not kept at what they should be. This is normally okay because the meat is cooked, but when it comes to raw consumption it's more risky. Most sites like felinenutrition.org recommend against grocery store meats for this reason.

If you are buying whole cuts and grinding it yourself the risk is greatly reduced in comparison to pre-ground (never, ever buy pre-ground from the meat section), but for the reasons listed above, there still is some risk. Buying frozen and thawing the meat out will eliminate this risk and is a relatively easy alternative IMO. If you insist on getting the whole cuts from the meat section there are ways to get rid of the surface bacteria/pathogens. daftcat75 could probably give you some tips on that one. I believe he recommends removing the skin or baking the surface of the meat.

Raw Diet. Need suggestions/budget help

Again, this would not be the cause of the giardia, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[Rooker]

He was probably a silent carrier since his kittenhood. This is not unheard of.

He was tested twice for it since his kittenhood during different periods of time. Both tests came negative.

 

[Rooker]

It is always possible, but I'm not a scientist so I'm not sure the difference between parasite growth and bacteria growth on old meat. What I do know is that (and what your vet was probably referring to we they mentioned bacteria) non-frozen grocery store meat is extremely prone to bacteria. Again, grocery store meats sit out for a long time. Often dates are changed and temperatures are not kept at what they should be. This is normally okay because the meat is cooked, but when it comes to raw consumption it's more risky. Most sites like felinenutrition.org recommend against grocery store meats for this reason.

If you are buying whole cuts and grinding it yourself the risk is greatly reduced in comparison to pre-ground (never, ever buy pre-ground from the meat section), but for the reasons listed above, there still is some risk. Buying frozen and thawing the meat out will eliminate this risk and is a relatively easy alternative IMO. If you insist on getting the whole cuts from the meat section there are ways to get rid of the surface bacteria/pathogens. daftcat75 could probably give you some tips on that one. I believe he recommends removing the skin or baking the surface of the meat.

Raw Diet. Need suggestions/budget help

Again, this would not be the cause of the giardia, but it's something to keep in mind.

I understand. I think I might make my cat raw food occasionally, but this is becoming such a hassle and it is very time consuming to even prepare it to begin with. So I think I will just switch him to canned food and see how he does on that. I really wanted to give this a try and feed him well. But I can't say I had good experience with it. Been feeding it to him for a year, he doesn't love it either, unless he is super hungry... It's difficult to keep it fresh, and we had multiple parasite problems since I started feeding him raw. I think it's time for us to switch to a different food.

 

[She's a witch]

He was tested twice for it since his kittenhood during different periods of time. Both tests came negative.

What test did they use? If the infection wasn’t active at the time and he didn’t shed any cysts, some fecal tests wouldn’t pick it up.

 

[Beholder]

I understand. I think I might make my cat raw food occasionally, but this is becoming such a hassle and it is very time consuming to even prepare it to begin with. So I think I will just switch him to canned food and see how he does on that. I really wanted to give this a try and feed him well. But I can't say I had good experience with it. Been feeding it to him for a year, he doesn't love it either, unless he is super hungry... It's difficult to keep it fresh, and we had multiple parasite problems since I started feeding him raw. I think it's time for us to switch to a different food.

I am a firm believer that raw food is the best diet for most cats, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a canned food diet either for people uncomfortable feeding raw, as long as it's quality food. All you can do is what you think is best for your cat though, even if others have different opinions.

As a side note, you can also try cooked food. This may be more work than you'd like to put in, but I would say cooked food is next best to raw. While I don't agree with all of your vet's opinions on raw food per say, I can't imagine they would object to cooked food so long as it's supplemented. My cat Morty recently had some medical issues so I'm feeding him cooked pork (supplemented and blended in a food processor) and it's been going pretty well. Saves us a lot of money compared to canned too.