When To Step In?

[Buffster7]

I'm in the process of integrating new cat to resident cat. Resident cat has a long history of being a bully, is 8 years old and twice the size of new cat.

New cat was just trapped and neutered 6-7 weeks ago and is between 1-2 yrs. We have done the long and slow intro process with separate room, scent swapping, feedings, and only recently started visits. New cat is NOT intimidated by resident cat at all. Resident cat has been taken off guard by this; every time he swats new cat, new cat retaliates and chases/corners him and seems to want to continue to go after him. Yes, I try to distract him and redirect him, but once he's been swatted, he is laser-focused on revenge. He wasn't a feral but he was a wild street cat with skills, apparently. So in spite of the size difference and the fact that New cat, 10 lbs, has claws and resident cat, 17.4 lbs, has no claws, the seem to be well matched.

Here is my question: Tonight new cat Finn saw resident cat Charlie leaving Finn's room, and it made Finn mad, so he went after resident cat. I heard a scuffle with lots of hissing and growling. First time I've heard growling.
A little while later I saw them facing off. What concerned me was Charlie was laying calmly facing off with Finn, but his tail was super puffed out. It was the calm that worried me. I'm trying to let them work it out because up til now I've been helicoptering.

I guess I'm asking what to "beware" of, what to look for. Is THIS the point that I step in? Or do I just wait until they get into a fight?

 

[ArtNJ]

Most on here seem to agree that anything short of an actual fight is consistent with them working it out on their own. To me, it seems like cats get tired of "hostile talk" if there is no actual bona fide hostilities -- it exhausts them and eventually they often ratchet it down on their own. I've hear other members phrase it as working it out or communicating. However, when an actual fight occurs and a cat experiences pain, that is a setback that makes progress much harder. So the vague criteria is: do you think an actual fight is likely? If so, a reset/slower introduction process is in order.

Now you may well then ask: how do I tell if they are likely to actually fight? That one is a lot harder. There are so many things, I'm sure I'll miss some. One is that if they go beyond growling to high pitched shrieking or howling, that is a huge red flag. Another is how they are interacting. A defensive swat or two is nothing, but if there is chasing with offensive swatting that is a lot closer to a fight.

I'm a little concerned that *both* your cats seem interested in hostilities. Maybe the big one's behavior is motivated by anxiety (although you used the word bully) but the smaller cat sounds motivated by fighting spirit. That raises a bit of red flag to me, suggesting that this is possibly going to be a hard one. I had a normally gentle young cat that only wanted to play, but wouldn't tolerate being hissed at or defensively swatted, and it was a problem. So I definitely believe that some cats just have an "I'm not taking any crap"/warrior code mindset and it does make things tougher because its very hard to get cats 100% of the way through an introduction process -- very commonly they need to be able to work through some remaining issues on their own, and that is hard to do if one cat's anxious growls and defensive swats offend the other cat's sensibilities enough to trigger hostilities.

 

[Buffster7]

Now you may well then ask: how do I tell if they are likely to actually fight? That one is a lot harder. There are so many things, I'm sure I'll miss some. One is that if they go beyond growling to high pitched shrieking or howling, that is a huge red flag. Another is how they are interacting. A defensive swat or two is nothing, but if there is chasing with offensive swatting that is a lot closer to a fight.

I'm a little concerned that *both* your cats seem interested in hostilities. Maybe the big one's is motivated by anxiety (although you used the word bully) but the smaller cat sounds motivated by fighting spirit. That raises a bit of red flag to me, suggesting that this is possibly going to be a hard one. I had a normally gentle young cat that only wanted to play, but wouldn't tolerate being hissed at or defensively swatted, and it was a problem. So I definitely believe that some cats just have an "I'm not taking any crap" mindset and it does make things tougher.

Thank you, ArtNJ! Yes, I think that is partly my question: signs to look for, things that precipitate an actual fight. I can see Charlie being all puffed up if he got a fright, but the way they were facing off so calmly - except Finn's tail was whipping and Charlie's was puffed up. That made me nervous - is that what they do before they attack?

There is chasing, but it's not by the swatter. Charlie (resident cat) will swat Finn. This angers Finn and he will pounce in retaliation. Charlie then hisses and runs off. Finn keeps chasing and will corner him. This is when I can't tell if I should leave the and see what happens, or intervene. I also can't figure out who the aggressor is. I think Charlie is a bully but Finn refuses to be bullied. When Finn retaliates, Charlie gets scared.

Finn doesn't take any crap but he's only 10 lbs. Charlie is 17.4 (but man he feels a lot heavier than that) but has no claws. Who's likely to get hurt first?

 

[ArtNJ]

Its really hard because puffy tail/whipping tail are ambiguous; meaning many different things. Here, they mean at least vigilance and an alert state, but they don't necessarily signal a desire to actually fight. You keep saying the big one is a bully, but so far what I'm hearing is more consistent with anxiety about a new cat in the house. It sounds like the big one is not a true risk to initiate a real fight, but the smaller one might be.

If the big one is going to run off and not fight back when charged, maybe the risk is modest enough to see how things play out. Check the big one for scratches though, and watch for signs of escalating anxiety.

 

[Buffster7]

Its really hard because puffy tail/whipping tail are ambiguous; meaning many different things. Here, they mean at least vigilance and an alert state, but they don't necessarily signal a desire to actually fight. You keep saying the big one is a bully, but so far what I'm hearing is more consistent with anxiety about a new cat in the house. It sounds like the big one is not a true risk to initiate a real fight, but the smaller one might be.

If the big one is going to run off and not fight back when charged, maybe the risk is modest enough to see how things play out. Check the big one for scratches though, and watch for signs of escalating anxiety.

The big one has historically been a bully. He bullied my dog mercilessly; stalked, cornered, swatted, guarded, blocked, all of it. She was terrified of him. I have learned that he used to belong to a family in my neighborhood who kicked him out of the house for bullying their other cats and not allowing access to food or litter box. I recall hearing a cat crying around the neighborhood and when I saw him living in my garage (dog door access), he was thin and scared. I felt bad for this poor stray with no claws trying to survive outside. Once he moved into my house he became the bully again. I've seen this same behavior with Finn - the stalking, the mean-eye, the blocking the doorways, etc. But Finn isn't putting up with it. I don't think Charlie has ever been challenged before. He's big and scary-looking when he gives mean-eye. But I think he's aware he has no claws - and now I see fear in him.

My concern is that once the little guy is mad at being swatted, he doesn't want to give up. He will corner Charlie and appear to want to continue the fight. I have always stepped in and broken it up. My hope is that Charlie will realize that if he just doesn't swat Finn, Finn won't chase him. I think little guy is the one to watch..but if they get in a fight, who is the one likely to sustain injury? Little 10lb guy with claws, or fat 17.4 lb guy with no claws?

 

[ArtNJ]

Thats an easy question; the big guy will get hurt first. A cat fight between cats of the same house does not usually mean biting. It can, certainly, I've had a cat get bitten twice, but in a routine cat fight scratches are the issue.

 

[Buffster7]

Thats an easy question; the big guy will get hurt first. A cat fight between cats of the same house does not usually mean biting. It can, certainly, I've had a cat get bitten twice, but in a routine cat fight scratches are the issue.

Thank you, ArtNJ! I have been clipping little guy's nails and will keep that up. I may have vet put on nail caps for the intro period, then. My little guy is a biter, too. Fortunately my big guy has thick, longish fur, so at least he has some protection. The little guy has short, sleek fur. I will check my big guy for scratches, probably around the face? Your responses have been very helpful, I appreciate them!

 

[Willowy]

Ha, big bully guy found out he can't bully everyone! To me it sounds like they're working it out themselves and will probably end up being buddies once they've gotten the dominance issue hashed out. I don't think anybody is very likely to get hurt, although, yes, he could get scratched in the eye, so maybe keep some terramycin (antibiotic eye ointment) around just in case.

 

[Jcatbird]

All great advice! One added ingredient is that little guy has had UTI or Flutd so he may have felt a little on edge during the intros. It’s also kind of hard to leave your scent when you can’t pee. Charlie/ big guy probably left his per in the litter box Little guy uses. The nerve of that guy! I agree with everything said to help you!
Look for scabs like bumps around the neck and ears too.

 

[Buffster7]

To me it sounds like they're working it out themselves and will probably end up being buddies once they've gotten the dominance issue hashed out.

What makes you think they'll be buddies? I'm just looking for a glimmer of hope.

One added ingredient is that little guy has had UTI or Flutd so he may have felt a little on edge during the intros.

Yes, and he is extremely restless tonight. Can't figure to if he's upset about being cooped up when he had the run of the house for half the day, or if he's uncomfortable. Constant meowing. He's not a happy camper.

 

[Willowy]

What makes you think they'll be buddies? I'm just looking for a glimmer of hope.

I've found that male cats who have the worst time working out dominance end up being the best buddies once they have everything sorted out. Not always, of course, but I think there's a good chance of it.

 

[She's a witch]

just be careful not to get hurt when you intervene

 

[Buffster7]

I've found that male cats who have the worst time working out dominance end up being the best buddies once they have everything sorted out. Not always, of course, but I think there's a good chance of it.

Oh, this does give me hope! I vacillate between feeling hopeful, feeling very anxious, and then discouraged. I want this to work out so badly, it's an emotional roller-coaster!

 

[Sonatine]

One thing I found effective when I introduced my cats was to keep an eye on "unequal" situations that I didn't think would go well and redirect before they happened.

If my cats were meeting on "equal ground" I'd let them do what they were going to do and rarely intervened. But if I saw the new cat moving towards the resident one when the resident cat was in a corner, I might call one of them away. The new cat wasn't really even aiming to corner the resident, but I knew that hostilities were more likely if the resident cat felt trapped, so I'd head off that particular interaction before it even began. Of course, as they learned to tolerate each other I stopped doing that, but I was more vigilant at first.

If there are any spots where your resident cat tends to be more defensive or corners himself (if corners are a thing that bothers him; it's different for every cat), you might try drawing the cats out of that location so that they'll be more likely to interact on neutral terms. Figure out which areas in your home both cats tend to be relaxed or confident, and if possible lure or direct them out of "trouble spots" and into those areas.

The point isn't to intervene or stop them from interacting (we want them to interact!). It's to shape or redirect the encounter so that one cat doesn't go in at a disadvantage.

I hope that made sense; it's kind of hard to describe unless you're doing it.

 

[Buffster7]

One thing I found effective when I introduced my cats was to keep an eye on "unequal" situations that I didn't think would go well and redirect before they happened.

If my cats were meeting on "equal ground" I'd let them do what they were going to do and rarely intervened. But if I saw the new cat moving towards the resident one when the resident cat was in a corner, I might call one of them away. The new cat wasn't really even aiming to corner the resident, but I knew that hostilities were more likely if the resident cat felt trapped, so I'd head off that particular interaction before it even began. Of course, as they learned to tolerate each other I stopped doing that, but I was more vigilant at first.

If there are any spots where your resident cat tends to be more defensive or corners himself (if corners are a thing that bothers him; it's different for every cat), you might try drawing the cats out of that location so that they'll be more likely to interact on neutral terms. Figure out which areas in your home both cats tend to be relaxed or confident, and if possible lure or direct them out of "trouble spots" and into those areas.

The point isn't to intervene or stop them from interacting (we want them to interact!). It's to shape or redirect the encounter so that one cat doesn't go in at a disadvantage.

I hope that made sense; it's kind of hard to describe unless you're doing it.

I understand and it made perfect sense, thank you! I try to head off any problems and distract them before either of them gets cornered because once their sights are set on each other, there is no deterring or redirecting each other. At some point they are going to have to decide if they really want to fight, or if they would just be better off walking away. I think I've got two boys with Alpha issues they don't know what to do with.

Today Finn really seemed to want to try to be nice and overlook the swatting insults. Give Charlie an inch, and he'll push his luck, though. As soon as he saw Finn wasn't going to retaliate, he slipped back into Bully mode. They literally do take turns being the A-hole - they take turns every other day. Back and forth, back and forth we go..

 

[Buffster7]

I know that this process is different for different cats, but at what point do I start considering that these two personalities just may be better off as "only" cats? I know we aren't there yet, but I do feel concerned.

We can't seem to make it past an hour before they want to get into it. Today Finn was out for less than 15 minutes before I heard a tussle. By that I mean hissing and swatting and chasing - and no, it wasn't playing.
I walked to the hallway to see what was going on and they broke apart; new cat Finn went into the bathroom to explore and resident cat Charlie layer at the doorway (blocking). I knelt down and stroked them both, and Charlie started growling. Not at me, just a long, low displeased growl.

I feel so badly about Finn being cooped up in one bedroom all day every day that I fed Charlie in my room and have him closed in there for now and Finn is exploring the house. Is this a bad idea? Is this going to make Charlie even angrier?

Also, I have 3 litterboxes; One in Charlie's (my) bathroom, one in Finn's room, and one in the home offices. Finn seems to be REALLY territorial over his room and litter box; yesterday when Charlie went in to sniff, Finn charged him and had Charlie cornered - bottle brush tails. Yet Finn has peed in Charlie's litter box before. I just went to clean the one in home office and it is FULL; it's like they've been having a competition.

I guess I'm just looking for some encouragement; is it possible for 2 lone-wolf alpha males with age differences who don't appear to like each other to eventually get along?

 

[ArtNJ]

With the chasing, are they actually engaging and rolling around? Or one fleeing prevents that?

I'm a bit concerned you might be over the line where more time doesn't help, and you have to back up and see if a reintroduction/extended introduction might help. Have you found wounds on either? Its true that scratches are most often on exposed areas, but for bite wounds you have to part fur and look all over.

In fact, can you go over the time table for us? How long of a process did you do before you let them interact?

 

[susanm9006]

I would consider them taking turns as being an extremely good sign that their relationship is balanced. I think before you make the decision that this isn’t working you just need to step back and let them get into it. If growling, hissing and slapping is all that happens that is just fine.

 

[Buffster7]

In fact, can you go over the time table for us? How long of a process did you do before you let them interact?

Trapped Finn, had him neutered, and brought him home from vet on 7/22. Isolated him to treat URI and let him get settled in. First face-to-face meeting was 8/8 - didn't really start trying to do regular visits for another week after that:
I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

With the chasing, are they actually engaging and rolling around? Or one fleeing prevents that?

No rolling engaging or rolling around, but yesterday I felt that if I hadn't intervened, they may have gotten into it. Finn was MAD. Charlie (resident cat with no claws) usually will flee because Finn chases and tries to bite while they're running. I had a biting issue with him when he moved in - he was biting me at first til he settled in. He wasn't feral, but wasn't really socialized.

Have you found wounds on either? Its true that scratches are most often on exposed areas, but for bite wounds you have to part fur and look all over.

I haven't found any puncture wounds, but then, Charlie won't sit still for long. When he lets me part fur I've been checking, but nothing. I've also been giving him mini "massages" to see if he will squirm if I hit a tender spot (he'll sit still for a massage - he has a low touch-tolerance) and nothing so far.

I would consider them taking turns as being an extremely good sign that their relationship is balanced. I think before you make the decision that this isn’t working you just need to step back and let them get into it. If growling, hissing and slapping is all that happens that is just fine.

Even if it's taking turns being the A-hole? Like yesterday Finn was the aggressor, and today Charlie is really angry and growly. If I don't step in and it does progress to a fight, is it the kiss of death for integration?

 

[susanm9006]

If they fight and I mean high pitched cat fight screaming followed by biting then I think it does diminish the chances they will be friends or that you would need to do a reintroduction. But each taking turns hissing and growling at one another seems to me to just be posturing and figuring each other out.