What Do We Think Of Pugs And Their Supposed Problems?

NewYork1303

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How interesting. It isn't something I see so much in Cardigan Corgis, but my guess is this is because there are not very many of them around.

I suppose a bit of the problem is also what pet homes want. No breeder is going to breed a litter of puppies and come out with more than a few (if they're lucky) that are show quality, which means the rest need to go to homes as pets. Border collies especially are ones that would be difficult to have in a normal home since ones bred from great herding lines would be ones that could be annoying to have around since their instincts would be so strong and they would have a deep need to work. So dumbing down a "show line" to make the "pet quality" puppies easier keepers would be to the pet homes benefit.

Here is an interesting article about Puggles (pug beagle mixes): Puggle | Embrace Breed Library

One of the main pieces I find interesting in it is how they talk about trying to find someone reputable who breeds Puggles. If there are people who breed mixes with the goal of creating a healthier breed (not just the cute factor), I wonder what the likelyhood of this working would be.

I know there are labradoodles that people are claiming are healthier than poodles and labs, but without actual health testing like the kind that purebred breeders do, you'll wind up with puppies that are still predisposed to blindness, hip dysplasia, and other illnesses from both breeds. The only reason not to do health testing and publish results, is if you're worried that something will come up or if you aren't willing to spend the money required to produce healthy puppies.
 

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How interesting. It isn't something I see so much in Cardigan Corgis, but my guess is this is because there are not very many of them around.

I suppose a bit of the problem is also what pet homes want. No breeder is going to breed a litter of puppies and come out with more than a few (if they're lucky) that are show quality, which means the rest need to go to homes as pets. Border collies especially are ones that would be difficult to have in a normal home since ones bred from great herding lines would be ones that could be annoying to have around since their instincts would be so strong and they would have a deep need to work. So dumbing down a "show line" to make the "pet quality" puppies easier keepers would be to the pet homes benefit.

Here is an interesting article about Puggles (pug beagle mixes): Puggle | Embrace Breed Library

One of the main pieces I find interesting in it is how they talk about trying to find someone reputable who breeds Puggles. If there are people who breed mixes with the goal of creating a healthier breed (not just the cute factor), I wonder what the likelyhood of this working would be.

I know there are labradoodles that people are claiming are healthier than poodles and labs, but without actual health testing like the kind that purebred breeders do, you'll wind up with puppies that are still predisposed to blindness, hip dysplasia, and other illnesses from both breeds. The only reason not to do health testing and publish results, is if you're worried that something will come up or if you aren't willing to spend the money required to produce healthy puppies.
I do think that some of the watered down versions of BC's make good pets, but only some.
If you water down a breed, you need to take everything into consideration. Drives, nerves, temperament, and what most people call an "off switch" (meaning the adult dog can learn that it's not time to work now...so chill out already.
If a BC owner decides to show their dogs, and wins big with a heavily coated dog, the dog becomes a sought after sire for more coat (to win more) and herding ability flies out the window. What you have is a nice dog that looks like a BC but doesn't act like one, and the smarts and herding instinct are lost. With a lot of herding breeds, the looks (and to be fair, good structure in most cases) comes before what make a herding dog a herding dog. A dog with strong drive but crappy nerves does NOT make a good pet. It makes a horrible pet that goes after bikes, cars, children, other animals in the home and the poor nerves means when you intervene, your nice house dog "turns on you" and bites you. Not a good pet dog IMO.
I am not a breeder and never wanted to be one, but this is what I've seen and it makes me pause when people say "working lines make bad pets." Working lines make EXCELLENT pets for owners who are active, and like to train and run and hike and do stuff with their dogs.
If someone spends 10 hours at work a day and the rest of the time watching TV, they need to ask themselves..."why do I want a (Border Collie, Aussie, German Shepherd, a Labrador or any other high energy breed), IMHO.
Again, I'm just some person on the internet sharing what I've seen.
The popularity of Cardi's is not high. I admire them as a breed, only met a handful but thought they were confident, tough little dogs without being overly forward. Consider yourself a member of a secret society and keep them a rare-ish breed that many people new to dogs haven't heard of, and won't consider. This keeps the breed from (potential, and only potential) ruination IMO.
I haven't spoke with any Brittany owners in a long time, nor NSDTR's, but last I heard (15-20+ years ago) was there WAS no split. Very good for the breed IMO, and the breed people work hard to keep it that way.

Again. No science here. Just some random guy on the internet.
 

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Also, from our training friends, we've met a lot of Labradoodles.
They seem long lived, which is great. Many of them have a bad "hip sway" that points to hip problems, and some have had epilepsy. I think they're really cute, fun and happy dogs on the whole (a few are a tiny bit neurotic, but that happens in any dogs. Have a few myself!). Longevity matters, but so does health. If your dog lives to be 16, I am happy for you. But is it really longevity when they're blind, diabetic, and crazy from cognitive disorder by the time they hit 9? Likewise, when you have a dog (especially a larger dog) that hits 15 and is still mobile, mentally coherent, and as active as an older gent/lady can be, that is more important.
It sounds sick and don't think I'm terrible, but I'd rather lose them with dignity t 15 than having lived with a dog that doesn't know what planet they're on at 18, with the remainder of their lives being drugs, drugs, and more drugs.
(Again...old school here. Don't sneak into my house and shoot me.)
 

NewYork1303

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Its all very interesting. I work at a dog daycare so I see a whole bunch of examples of many breeds. Of course most are coming from "breeders" in the same area so the geography may be changing what I see. The german shepherds we get are neurotic, aggressive, and/or terribly structured. Most of these come from backyard breeders.

We have a huge selection of labradoodles and their temperaments range from being very sweet dogs to one that is insane aggressive. A lot with seizures, several with eye problems, many with bad hips even though they are only two or three years old. Not seeing any "hybrid vigor" from them.

We also have a wide range of backyard bred labs that are neurotic to the core. Which is sad to me since the few well bred labs we have are so sweet and calm and easy to work with.

My biggest pet peeve (and I know I'm getting far from the original topic, but it is all connected) is the new "Blue Merle Pembroke Corgis". These are not purebred dogs, but the people breeding them are pretending they are. Pembrokes don't come in blue merle, only Cardigans come in blue merle. These so called Blue Merle Pems are actually Cardigan corgi, Pembroke corgi crosses (these are two different breeds, so it would be the equivalent of putting a Basset Hound with a Coonhound and saying it was a purebred Hound).

I just think everyone should be in the same boat producing quality healthy animals that will be an asset to any family, regardless of breed or color. Everyone should be evaluating any breeding that they do complete, watching these puppies grow to adults and seeing what works and what doesn't. My dog's mom will be spayed after his litter because too many of the puppies have terrible bites that make their mouths misshaped. Not something you would guess looking at the parents and their lineage.
 

mkhtk79

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I beleive one of the problems pugs have is gas. Even when you change up thier diet they are still apparently a very gassy breed.
 

Willowy

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I beleive one of the problems pugs have is gas. Even when you change up thier diet they are still apparently a very gassy breed.
That's related to their squishy faces. They snort so much that they swallow a lot of air, and it has to come out somewhere. . .
 

neely

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That's related to their squishy faces. They snort so much that they swallow a lot of air, and it has to come out somewhere. . .
This is so true! :flail:
 

jen

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How about "purebred" silver labs?? Where does that silver come from? If someone understands genetic colors and knows how the silver can come into the picture without being outcrossed with a Weim or something I am all ears. But I just don't get it .
 

lutece

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As I understand it, a "silver" Lab is just a dilute chocolate Lab. Dilute is recessive in dogs, just as it is in cats, so it's hard to know for sure whether the gene was already present somewhere in the breed before the silver Labs began to appear, or whether someone deliberately introduced it through an outcross.
 
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Willowy

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I guess the first kennel that came up with silver Labs also bred Weims, so there's a bit of suspicion there. But dilute can also show up as a random mutation. So who knows. It's been long enough now that Weim wouldn't show up in any DNA tests.
 

lutece

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Regardless of how the gene got into the breed, my understanding is that dilute Labs have been around almost as long as chocolate Labs? My grandmother used to breed chocolate Labs many years ago, before they were so popular, and people used to make negative comments about the chocolates, too.

I'm generally not a fan of people breeding non-standard colors in a breed and then selling them as expensive "rare" colors... but in the case of "silver" Labs I wonder if it's maybe a good thing that there are Weim-colored Labs out there? A lot of people are attracted to the Weim purely because of its pretty color, but some of them might be better off with a dog with a Lab temperament.
 

neely

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A lot of people are attracted to the Weim purely because of its pretty color, but some of them might be better off with a dog with a Lab temperament.
:yeah: I completely agree with this statement, two very different temperaments.
 

Willowy

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Yeah, Weims are pretty high-strung and stubborn.

I don't have any problem with silver Labs. They don't have extra health problems, AFAIK. It's kinda sketchy when breeders charge extra for the color though.
 

NewYork1303

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Working at a dog daycare I can say we have many silver labs, but they do not look or act like purebred labs. They also point (something more common in Weims than in Labs). Admittedly, a lot of the so called "labs" we get are fairly weird since lab breeding has become a huge mess of people who are crappy breeders just breeding whatever they want a lot of the time (in this area).

The silver labs seem to have the same problem as chocolate labs as they seem to pass away at 7 or 8 rather than 11 or 12 (or older) as most labs. There is a lot of theory out there that something about the recessive genes actually makes chocolates and silvers more susceptible to cancer and other old age illnesses. No science behind that as far as I know.
 
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