What calcium to phosphorus ratio do you aim for in your raw diet?

[whollycat]

I have always aimed for cahos ratio of 1.3:1 for my kitties, but was wondering what others shoot for? I might re-think this if others could provide data to support going lower (not thinking any would want higher, but if you do, input is welcome). I think dogs don't need as high a cahos ratio, so I have always believed that 1.3:1 was a good range for kitties.

What type of diet do you feed? I feed a whole prey model ground raw with bones and organs (most often it is just liver because I have a hard time sourcing other organ meats).

If not feeding bones, what calcium source do you use?

Also, could you provide info on why you choose the cahos ratio you do?

Thanks y'all!

 

[mschauer]

I shoot for 1.1 or 1.2. I've read in multiple sources that anything in the 1.1 - 1.5 range is fine.

The Plantinga study,  Estimation of the dietary nutrient profile of free-roaming feral cats: possible implications for nutrition of domestic cats, established a mean of 1.5 for the diet of feral cats.

I use MCHA (freeze dried bone). I used to use ground bone but found it next to impossible to determine exactly how much bone, and so how much calcium, I was using. The MCHA is a powder and I have a pretty complete nutrient profile for it so I know exactly how much calcium I'm using.

Which leads me to a question I have for you: How do know how much bone is in your ground mix?

Oh yeah, I feed a ground diet.

 

[ldg]

I feed boneless whole prey model raw, not ground. My cats aren't good at eating chunks, so I cut up their meat and organs. I'm not comfortable with bones, and I like knowing exactly how much calcium they're getting.

I sprinkle supplements on their food. I target a Ca ratio of 1.3:1, because it's right in the middle of the recommended 1.1:1 - 1.5:1 range. Calcium is a nutritional component I'd rather have at the high end than the low-end, though with 1.3:1, I know it's not TOO much.

The analysis of feral cat diets by Plantinga indicated that feral cats in the wild eat a Ca ratio of 1.5:1, BUT they speculated that the ratio was this high because of the bioavailability of minerals from bone. Several of us during the transition had constipated kitties eating ground meat/bones, and x-rays showed their systems were full of bones. So that's normal, I think. I'm sure more gets digested with time, but I expect supplements are easier to digest.

I supplement with eggshell and with NOW calcium hydroxyapatite (microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite - MCHA). MCHA is freeze-dried bone. I want them to have the nutrition from bone, but it's expensive to use it solely for 8 cats. So I alternate each week.

 

[whollycat]

Which leads me to a question I have for you: How do know how much bone is in your ground mix?

My 1.3:1 is an approximate that I shoot for. Extrapolating from http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf and whole adult chicken calcium: 2.22, phos: 1.40 gives a cahos ratio of 1.59:1, so feeling this is too high (and all the kitties get constipated), I remove the rib bones, neck, wing tip bone (keep the other bone that has more meat--basically cutting the wing in half), and knuckles off the leg bones. That leaves me with the thigh bones, half wing bones, gristle bone along breast, and partial leg bones. I'm removing approximately 1/3(?) of the bones (just by eye-balling it).

Sometime when I have the time, I'll debone an entire chicken and weigh the meat and bones separately to see what the percentage is, then would be somewhat easier to figure the adjustment of meat to bone. Right? Or is my thinking wacky?

When I have hearts, I will add 2lbs of hearts per 15lbs or so of the entire batch of food--that will also affect the cahos ratio, so adds a bit of variety. I also add 5% liver each batch.

Because of Maxie's EGC (but I might do anyway), I remove 1/3 to 1/2 the skin (can vary). I add a minimal amount of fiber, rotating between psyllium husk and organic rice bran--1/2tsp per pound of raw (I bag into 1lb packages) with extra water at feeding time. If I don't, especially my older boy, Abby, will get a bit constipated. He'll be 16 next month.

Mschauer and Laurie, what MCHA product are you using--I'd like to check into that further. I do prefer to feed real bones, but I don't want to over/under do the bones needed. I've fed raw since 2005, and so far no health issues by what I've been doing, but I'm always rethinking and tweaking their diet.

Thanks for your feedback gals!

 

[mschauer]

Which leads me to a question I have for you: How do know how much bone is in your ground mix?

My 1.3:1 is an approximate that I shoot for. Extrapolating from http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf and whole adult chicken calcium: 2.22, phos: 1.40 gives a cahos ratio of 1.59:1, so feeling this is too high (and all the kitties get constipated), I remove the rib bones, neck, wing tip bone (keep the other bone that has more meat--basically cutting the wing in half), and knuckles off the leg bones. That leaves me with the thigh bones, half wing bones, gristle bone along breast, and partial leg bones. I'm removing approximately 1/3(?) of the bones (just by eye-balling it).

Sometime when I have the time, I'll debone an entire chicken and weigh the meat and bones separately to see what the percentage is, then would be somewhat easier to figure the adjustment of meat to bone. Right? Or is my thinking wacky?

Wow, that sounds like a lot of work! As far as the 1.3:1 you are basically guessing aren't you? I mean you can't know how much calcium and phosphorus there is in the bones you use. Bones from different parts of the skeleton have different densities and so different amounts of minerals. I'm not trying to suggest there is a problem with what you are doing. The uncertainty is the main reason I stopped using ground bone. I want to really *know* what the Ca is. 

Mschauer and Laurie, what MCHA product are you using--I'd like to check into that further. I do prefer to feed real bones, but I don't want to over/under do the bones needed. I've fed raw since 2005, and so far no health issues by what I've been doing, but I'm always rethinking and tweaking their diet.

I know Laurie uses NOW MCHA. I was able to buy some in bulk from a source that normally doesn't sell to the public.I can't find a link to the NOW product right now. I'm Laurie can provide one.

Edit: Here is a link to the MCHA:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Minerals/M003061.htm

 

[ldg]

I buy it at amazon. :nod:

 

[whollycat]

Boy, this has sent me back on a quest to find answers to questions I've had for a long time. I'll post when I have data compiled in a somewhat coherent manner.

A few of my questions, and part of the reason I started this thread (maybe I should have named it differently

), have been: How much calcium and phosphorus in raw bone? Is it 2:1, such as in bonemeal? If so, can you then use that to somewhat accurately compute how much (by weight) raw ground bones one should add to kitties diet? I know it depends on what they've been fed, how they were raised, etc., but have always found this confounding that at least a general answer isn't out there...somewhere. Or maybe the fact that I found the 2:1 ratio is as close as I'm going to get? But then I'm back to how much, by weight? I mean how much bone is used to get say, a gram of bonemeal?

I'm giving myself a headache.

 

 

[mschauer]

A few of my questions, and part of the reason I started this thread (maybe I should have named it differently

), have been: How much calcium and phosphorus in raw bone? Is it 2:1, such as in bonemeal? If so, can you then use that to somewhat accurately compute how much (by weight) raw ground bones one should add to kitties diet? I know it depends on what they've been fed, how they were raised, etc., but have always found this confounding that at least a general answer isn't out there...somewhere. Or maybe the fact that I found the 2:1 ratio is as close as I'm going to get? But then I'm back to how much, by weight? I mean how much bone is used to get say, a gram of bonemeal?

Since MCHA is freeze dried bone it's Ca is that of whole bone and is about 2:1. But, to compute the Ca for your food you need to know what *quantity* of calcium and phosphorus is in the bone you use so you can balance it with the phosphorus in the other ingredients and that is where I hit a roadblock. First, it was difficult to find any data on the calcium and phosphorus content of bone and then what I did find showed that the mineral content depends on which bone it is. Weight bearing bones are denser than non-weight bearing bones for instance.

I tried for a *long* time to find a way to determine the amount of Ca and P in the whole bone I might use and just couldn't find enough information. I decided that the best that I could ever hope to do would be to come up with a *very* rough estimate and that wasn't acceptable to me. So I stopped using ground bone and started using MCHA. Since it is freeze dried it retains virtually the entire nutrient profile of whole bone and I contacted a major manufacturer of it to get the nutrient profile. That with the nutrient profiles in the USDA database for ingredients like raw chicken thigh, heart, etc is enough to let us create a nutrient profile for the food we create.

I'm giving myself a headache. [color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]

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I hear ya! I spent many hours banging my head against the wall trying to find a solution to this problem that I could live with and MCHA is the only one I've come up with. IMO using another calcium supplement would be fine also.

 

[ldg]

I know mschauer already posted this link, but http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Minerals/Calcium-Magnesium/M003061.htm

The "serving" is four capsules, so the elemental Ca in one capsule is 250mg; the amount of phosphorus is 125mg.

For the eggshell, I just use the Alnutrin (from Knowwhatyoufeed.com). It has instructions on it - but we know the amount of elemental Ca in eggshell, so it's easy to figure out how much you want to use to get to the Ca ratio you want.

 

[whollycat]

So I stopped using ground bone and started using MCHA. Since it is freeze dried it retains virtually the entire nutrient profile of whole bone and I contacted a major manufacturer of it to get the nutrient profile. That with the nutrient profiles in the USDA database for ingredients like raw chicken thigh, heart, etc is enough to let us create a nutrient profile for the food we create.

Would you care to share the nutrient profile of your MCHA either here or in a PM to me? I would love to see that, mschauer.

Thanks Laurie! I also have used ESP in the past for when I would feed boneless.

 

[mschauer]

Would you care to share the nutrient profile of your MCHA either here or in a PM to me? I would love to see that, mschauer.

Of course! It is multiple documents that I will have to send as attachments so you'll need to PM me an email I can send them to. Anyone else who is interested is welcome to do so also! 

 

[whollycat]

Of course! It is multiple documents that I will have to send as attachments so you'll need to PM me an email I can send them to. Anyone else who is interested is welcome to do so also! 

Got them all! Thank you very much, mschauer!!

 

[allaboutkats]

I have been reading your posts and I am going through what you did as to bone or no bone.  I have been using Oma's Pride mixture of bone but have never really known what the cah ratio was.  I now live in a place that is hard to get ground bone and also hesitant about using bonemeal.   Both my cats are 11 and have high Creatinine levels and Bunn on the high side as well but not over.  I would like to see your recipe using MCHA and the amounts with meat.  I use skinless chicken thighs do you?  I just don't know how much MCHA to add in replace of the bone to make it the right ratio.

Thanks for your help.