Vitamin C for cats. Do they make enough on their own when sick or very old?

[35 year catdad]

Should we give them higher doses when emaciated, in kidney failure, and in "kitty sepsis" I call it?
Don't they make enough? I have heard 180 milligrams is what they produce of ascorbic acid daily.

Will it give them metabolic acidosis?
Stones of oxalates? Urine like battery acid?
Vomiting?

This is very controversial I am finding out, and I think if we have an open mind and are willing to do modern cutting edge research on the powers of antioxidants,
our cats may benefit immensely.

I posted my results with ascorbic acid here in an almost dead 19 yr old Tortie and was shocked at the responses.
"tomfoolery" with my cats health, "STOP experimenting with your cats health", on and on."for the love of God stop this insanity"
There are vets using high dose ascorbic acid so I will post links to their websites.

I googled orthomolecular and holistic cat vets and found lots of reports on C
Many recommend doses of 500mg or more per day.
I found info on this at twocrazycatladies.com
They sell ascorbic acid for cats and a story hard to believe.
They had an identical issue that I just I had and their 18 year old boycat who was in dire straights is now 21.
Chewy sells their products and I love their kitty grass. off topic sorry...

Links added below as I gather them
Dont try this without your vets approval.
Functional medicine, holistic, orthomolecular minded vets do exist.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. I know nothing on this subject, nor do I have a particular opinion on it. I did find these articles (as you most likely did too, I am sure), which seems to suggest there is not really a proven purpose for giving cats extra Vit C. One of the articles also discusses the need for a cat's liver function to be checked before administering it for any reason.
For what it is worth...
Vitamin C for Cats : Too Much of a Good Thing?
https://www.petplace.com/article/dr...ry/ascorbic-acid-vitamin-c-for-dogs-and-cats/

 

[Mamanyt1953]

TOO much of any vitamin can be toxic. However, in reasonable doses, it can also be very helpful. This has opened up a new area of research for me. I'll be looking for sources that do not sell the product, however. I want unbiased information.

 

[35 year catdad]

Yes me too.....thats why I went to National Institute on Health for info on orthomolecular vitamin therapy in humans.
They mentioned doses as high as 6,000mg a day in humans sometimes. Our RDA is 60-90mgs Also some sites run and reviewed by vets that don't sell products are using high dose in cats and dogs. Wish I had time to name them all. I will stop posting links to any other site. Not be be argumentive and get flagged or banned from a wonderful club, but C is non toxic. It is an antioxidant so is used in mammals to detox. Also montmorillonite clay (bentonite ) is in my cat food and is good at removing toxins. I was thinking its a cheap filler for profit....Ascorbic acid is listed in my kibble half way down on list. I watched a U tube of 60 minutes show in Australia and saw how it saved Alan Smyth in end stage sepsis from swine flu. After being in ICU weeks the docs wanted to unplug him and let him go. They used 50,000mg IV twice a day sodium ascorbate ( as well as thiamine and a steroid ) under lawsuit threat from his loving sons and wife .Please dont flag for being off topic topic is ascorbic acid.

 

[35 year catdad]

I went to a huge national pet supply site and saw they have a vitamin C supplement formulated by a vet who is a DVM and M.S
It has 500mg sodium ascorbate per serving. Thats way more than I have ever used.
Info on this product says

"Description
Help boost the immune system of your furry friend with (*&^%$% Dog & Cat Supplement. This easy-to-administer powder contains bioflavonoids to increase the absorption and utilization of vitamin C in your pet. It is naturally buffered and reduces gastric distress commonly associated with high doses of straight ascorbic acid. This supplement also features sodium ascorbate, which has a saltier, less sour taste than ascorbic acid and is a potent, water-soluble antioxidant. Improve the immune response of your companion during infections or times of illness and disease with(*&^%$##$ Dog & Cat Supplement.
Key Benefits

• Easy-to-administer powder that helps boost the immune system of your furry friend.
• Contains bioflavonoids to increase the absorption and utilization of vitamin C in your pet.
• Naturally buffered and reduces gastric distress commonly associated with high doses of straight ascorbic acid.
• Features sodium ascorbate, which has a saltier, less sour taste than ascorbic acid.
• Approved by the National Animal Supplement Council Seal (NASC).

Precautions
Higher doses of this product may lead to soft stools or diarrhea in certain individuals. Start with smaller doses and gradually get your pet used to higher doses. At the first sign of soft stools, reduce the dose to the last dose given which did not soften the stools."

We have perfect stools lately and had the runs for all 3 cats about 2 months ago (heat waves and wet food in store storage/shipping dont mix) after I think we got a bad wet food can. Maybe thats what triggered my old Tortie into infection of U.T.
It seems the National Animal Supplement Council (NASC) supports cat poisoning if high C is toxic.

 

[mani]

It seems the National Animal Supplement Council (NASC) supports cat poisoning if high C is toxic.

A self-regulating body that has company owners from their membership on their board? Call me cynical, but I'm not convinced.

It interests me that cats do not require dietary vitamin C whilst we do. So it seems to me that there are so many unknowns about this type of supplementation for cats as so little research has been done.

Having said that, allow me to share my own, human vitamin c experience.
I was quite critically ill about thirty years ago. The alternative cure of the day was intravenous vitamin C. I spent literally thousands of dollars on this expensive treatment as people were so very persuasive.
I became more and more ill. It continued well after the treatments, and stayed that way for another six years until I was diagnosed with haemochromatosis and was able to start treatment.. If you're not familiar with this disease, it's genetic and causes iron build up in the body. It makes you feel terrible and untreated it is fatal. One of the things that greatly encourages iron stores is vitamin C.

What I'm saying here is we need to know the variables. There needs to be credible scientific research before OKing any treatments. The odd anecdotal success doesn't cut it.

 

[white shadow]

...........There needs to be credible scientific research before OKing any treatments.

Surely, though.........you wouldmust preface that with......."In the absence of obvious harm"...........?

On the entirety of the issue here, may I suggest a little logical, clear thinking............

1. If Vit C is cleared (excreted) by the kidneys (and, that has been established)
2. and, IF kidneys are diagnosed as being non/insufficiently functional
3. then........WTH (read "where") does the Vit C 'go'/'end up'/become sequestered?

It can not 'disappear', it can not 'evaporate', it can not otherwise leave the body.......therefore, logically, it will accumulate there.

Anyone wading into this discussion will need to understand the nature of a medical condition known as Metabolic Acidosis. There is a reliable, globally-recognized, plain-language coverage of that on a website that's authored by a woman who has laboured on it for the last 20+ years (after having been devastated by the loss of a cherished cat, Tanya, to Chronic Kidney Disease) here: Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - Metabolic Acidosis.

I'm not suggesting that the cat has MA, nor, even that the cat may develop MA.........I am only stating the obvious risk involved when a cat with kidney insufficiency is fed Vitamin C - most especially in such large amounts.

Elsewhere, 35 year catdad has stated, without diagnosis (and with demonstrated lack of understanding the nature of MA) that the cat does not have MA (that, despite a photograph of blood test results with some obvious markers for it).

35 year catdad furthermore, in other threads, has written profusely about having tested this cat's urine ph.........and found it to be only slightly acidic. But, why would it be otherwise........when the kidneys are not able to excrete it into the urine adequately ?

There is no credible, reliable veterinary reference to support this use of Vitamin C in cats, but there is much that suggests its dangers.
.

 

[mani]

Surely, though.........you wouldmust preface that with......."In the absence of obvious harm"...........?

No
Credible scientific research determines obvious harm. Just saying it's obvious also doesn't cut it.

Yes, Metabolid Acidosis is dangerous. But I cannot find any conclusive studies that say that an excess of vitamin C in cats creates it. It may seem obvious, but that doesn't make it so. If you have that evidence it would be good to share it. I do agree that it doesn't look good and on that basis I would definitely not be trying this on my CKD boy. And I wouldn't unless definitive studies told me otherwise, which seems extremely unlikely.

My personal opinion is that there are cures out there that 'make your legs grow back'.. ie they're too good to be true. The world is full of them and I feel this is yet another.

 

[CatladyJan]

Years ago my vet told me cats do not need vitamin C nor can metabolize it.
The A-B-C’s of Vitamin C.

 

[35 year catdad]

Good info thanks!
Its amazing with science so clear that so many opinions exist.
I see it offered in more and more places online and off, so there must be a reason.
Its usually mixed with bioflavonoids but how many obligate carnivores get bioflavonoids in the wild.

I was surprised they make so much ascorbic on their own- 180mg I've read. Twice the human RDA
One company that sells it in 500mg each doses (twice a day) claims its vet formulated and mentions his name.
Hes a DVM and M.S
Thanks for all the replies!

 

[35 year catdad]

She has only recent acute CD (not been chronic) and both vets did not say don't use it. "well nothing to lose with the C" . She will tell me when shes ready to quit and we want two more weeks so she can see her original human Mom again.
Many friends say hey she's 19 thats a long time in other words give her the cat-vorkian shots... and be done with her.
In the last 4 days shes been purring on my chest so something is working. No more walking with stiff back legs.
Shes indoor only with sudden bad allergies to something...I think our air but emergency vet said they see mostly cardiovascular effects.
C is nontoxic. Its a strong antihistamine and allergies raise histamines.


Here is a link to a human nephrologist MD who talks about cats and other animals production of, and need for C.
Notice the skin on her neck and chest, and her hair. I think she is a great example of what she teaches.

 

[Jcatbird]

Just want to run this by you. You mentioned that several kitties got sick and you thought a canned food could be the cause. I can totally see that as I have run across contaminated foods myself. The Salmonella illness was not diagnosed accurately for months. If a culture had not successfully grown it, we might never have known! The gastrointestinal effects and pain were very bad. Stress can make it more active in cats. A fire there would be stressful! I understand about air quality too. Treating the symptoms to get relief is what we usually do but getting to a sure answer about the cause is what everyone would want. If possible. She has survived as a healthy cat for a good length of time but more would be better. I am just wondering about the occurrence of all cats being sick and wondering if there is a clue there that might solve all her issues if she does not recover now. A cure instead of a treatment? I know you would want that for her. I am not a vet and I do not know what all your vets may have discussed about her but if the cause can be pinpointed for sure, perhaps she has many more years. That would be the best ending to this story. I think the biggest thing here is that we all just want kitty to be well. Holding out hope for good health.

 

[35 year catdad]

Thank you Jcat! All good points. I am all about the cure, and being proactive VS reactive in my and my kitties health.

Antibiotics do work wonders fast, but I don't think cats or humans are ever sick due to a deficiency of antibiotics, prednisone, etc. etc and my next project is to uncover the cause of all this. Other two just had a little diarrhea which ended quickly. They sometimes turn their noses up at a wet food when its "off" and I toss it. I'm talking to her two vets later today and am thrilled about her urine panel just run. Maybe its bladder cancer, which took my Mom and my first cat. Our vet tried to get some but it wound up on her towel and what I brought him was just a bit too little in my free catch bag.
They need 2cc and finally got it two days ago.
I can't believe how she has recovered and looking at her urine test taken two days ago it looks like we have more time together.
Her Mom is coming to see her in two weeks and was crying Sunday when she left saying..."well Hibou this may be the last time I see you"........and I said lets do this two weeks at a time. Shes back on Nov 15 and we'll see what happens.
wow this is a lot of work.I am trying to convince her Mom to try high dose C and when she was here Sunday I said hey watch this...and poured one teaspoon asc. acid which is approx. 5,000 mg in my smoothie and wolfed it down fast.
Well she left 4 hrs later and I did have one tummy growl as a reaction and that was it. Next morning normal stool.
PLEASE DON'T DO THAT unless you build up to it slowly. A healthy normal human GI tract I've read many places does not get GERD etc from asc acid in high doses built up slowly.
I had to build up to this over about a years time. Last Sept. when I started bumping up from 1,000 a day to 2-3k in divided doses I noticed my 17 yr chronic allergies to Oak pollen etc vanished quickly. hmm coincidence?
I took a good look at my drivers lic pic taken again last fall and said wow dude you have a collagen problem with your skin looking old and saggy. The difference now a year later is amazing and my 39 yr chronic knee issues that cost me my job have healed. Can it be true that goats produce up to 100,000 mg under stress? wow thats about what they give humans in IV sepsis treatment. Yet we are supposed to need 90mg?


Our world is very toxic and stressful for us and our pets sometimes (just moved after 17yrs) and anything that is anti oxidant is great at neutralizing poison's .Many viruses and bacteria put out tons of endotoxins and free radicals and help cause cytokine storms. Every summer all 3 thin out and look a bit haggard, so maybe the 113 temps, plus smoke here played a part?
All three are Indoor only but I caught them out on deck more than once upstairs in the terrible air on a 100 degree day. I run a portable A/c which gives only give us 86 inside.
She wants fed and is scratching my leg so better go. Also checking into new cat litter that may have contributed?
I consider what we went through as kitty sepsis and now that we are out of crises, will taper off on the C and let her body do its job.
C is in our wonderful Wysong Geriatrix and U.T. diets foods listed about half way down on list and is formulated by a vet who started making pet foods in 1979. I started on 500 mg a day at age 15 with breakfast but in 3-4 hrs it was used up. Gosh I had no idea.
I tried in vain to convince my smoking, overworking parents to take it who both died age 73. Thats 5 yrs from now for me (I goofed on my age in my profile by 10 yrs) Linus Pauling the Nobel prize winner on C research died of cancer so its surely not a cure all. He did outlive his main naysayers by quite a bit.

 

[35 year catdad]

I see RX Vitamins brand Bio-C for pets 500 mg C per serving they say give 2 per day. wow thats 1000 Mg per day.
Amazon gives mostly great 121 reviews by verified purchasers. but most are dog folks. Formulated by a vet, Steven Silver DVM M.S.
Sodium Ascorbate and lemon bioflavonoids 4 oz $14 its approx. 11 % sodium and do cats need more sodium? at 1000mg thats 111 Mg sodium.

 

[Jcatbird]

Reviews are not something I would depend upon when evaluating safety of food or medicine. As with pet food manufacturing, there should be standards to follow and that would need to be confirmed for anything I give my cats. Many remedies are not strictly monitored for ingredients depending on who and where manufactured. Your vet should be able to answer your questions and guide you to any needed products. If you need more information about pet food ingredients, reading the labels and talking to pet food manufacturers can help you too.

 

[pearl99]

On metabolic acidosis, it's caused by, for one, kidney disease (plus diabetic ketoacidosis, ingesting toxins, and more.) The point isn't so much that vitamin C causes it, it's that the kidneys are not fully functioning with kidney disease and vitamin C is cleared by the kidneys. So vitamin C may not be fully cleared and the kitty could build up way to much.
I've read a little on vitamin C and cats but not found much on how much is too much.
I'd also only go by well constructed research from reputable sources. I don't think there is enough of that kind of research to say if it's OK to do or not. I wouldn't go by those selling vitamin C.
Also, I wouldn't go by one vet's recommendation on something there isn't a lot of research on. What is the vet basing it on?