Vitamin B Complex

[mschauer]

It may not be that clear cut:

https://www.betternutrition.com/checkout/brewers-yeast-versus-nutritional-yeast

Brewer's yeast is traditionally a byproduct of the beer-making process, in which case it's cultivated on malted barley or other grains, which produces some bitterness. However, some brewer's yeasts are "primary grown," meaning they are cultivated specifically for use as a dietary supplement, and may be grown on the same types of media as nutritional yeast.

 

[orange&white]

Yes. Our point is for anyone interested in giving their cat(s) NY is to make sure they are buying fortified nutritional yeast, not brewers yeast. Nutritional yeast is grown on sugar cane, molasses or sometimes wood.

 

[mschauer]

I would think there would be no choline, inositol or PABA in the nutritional yeast...which as previously noted is a real positive in my book.

16 grams in how many pounds of meat/bones/organ?

The lack of choline is a big negative in my book.

The recipe I used contains 10# chicken thigh meat, 1# chicken heart and 1# chicken gizzard. The important part for just a quick test is that I could substitute 16 grams of nutritional yeast for 1 of the NOW B Complex capsules.

I use MCHA (freeze dried bone) which is a powder and I don't know what the equivalent amount of whole bone would be.

Edit: Also, phosphorus is not required/not on the nutrition label. How did you find out how high the phosphorus is?

No it isn't on the label. I could only find 2 sources for the phosphorus, one for nutritional yeast and one for brewers yeast. I used this one in the analysis:

Benefits and Side Effects of Brewer's Yeast

Crud. That's for brewers yeast. So is the other one. Isn't it odd how there are so many sources that state nutritional yeast is "high" in phosphorus but don't say how high it is???

The sources for brewers yeast likewise say that it is "high" in phosphorus. Don't know if the two are equivalently "high". I'll keep looking.

 

[mschauer]

It also doesn't look like NY contains any biotin, so that would make egg yolks not optional.

Supplemental biotin isn't usually needed in cat food, raw or manufactured. It is produced by the bacteria present in the gut. Both the AAFCO and the FEDIAF (European equivalent of the AAFCO) say it only needs to be added if antimicrobial (antibiotics) or anti-vitamin compounds (e.g, raw egg white) are present in the food.

 

[orange&white]

As noted in post #41.

 

[mschauer]

??? Then why did you say that since nutritional yeast doesn't contain biotin that eggs "aren't optional"?

 

[orange&white]

The lack of choline is a big negative in my book.

The recipe I used contains 10# chicken thigh meat, 1# chicken heart and 1# chicken gizzard. The important part for just a quick test is that I could substitute 16 grams of nutritional yeast for 1 of the NOW B Complex capsules.

I use MCHA (freeze dried bone) which is a powder and I don't know what the equivalent amount of whole bone would be.

The equivalent would be 1.5 pounds of bone (and 1.5 pounds of organ meat - half liver) in my recipes. Twelve pounds of muscle meat makes a 15 pound batch of balanced mix when using real bones and organs. So that may change the grams of NY needed to meet minimum B's.

Isn't it odd how there are so many sources that state nutritional yeast is "high" in phosphorus but don't say how high it is???

The sources for brewers yeast likewise say that it is "high" in phosphorus. Don't know if the two are equivalently "high". I'll keep looking.

I dabbled a bit searching for how much calcium people are adding to nutritional yeast to bring the ratio back to normal. Only found one source...not reliable...talking about adding 3.5 tsp of egg shell powder to 1 cup of NY, based on Dr. Pitcairn recommendation. Stress...I didn't find the comment reliable. I haven't looked much into it further, except that several articles say that there is a calcium-fortified nutritional yeast product (which I can't find).

My interest in nutritional yeast is really more along the lines of trying to find a concentrated protein source that doesn't add a lot of calories or fat to Tangent's diet while he's losing weight. I read a lot about nutritional yeast in the last four weeks and cancelled it out as a good extra protein source, but the Vitamin B's are attractive.

 

[mschauer]

The equivalent would be 1.5 pounds of bone (and 1.5 pounds of organ meat - half liver) in my recipes. Twelve pounds of muscle meat makes a 15 pound batch of balanced mix when using real bones and organs. So that may change the grams of NY needed to meet minimum B's.

Yes, the composition of the diet determines how much supplementation is needed whether it is a B supplement or any other supplement.

 

[mschauer]

I was able to find a cached web page from a USDA Branded Products search result for nutritional yeast. It shows a phosphorus level pretty close to what I showed in my earlier post. Close enough that I'm satisfied that using nutritional or brewers yeast won't throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio. Well somewhat satisfied anyway.

 

[orange&white]

??? Then why did you say that since nutritional yeast doesn't contain biotin that eggs "aren't optional"?

Because they said that supplemental biotin is not needed. The FDA and AAFCO are always starting their recommendations based on the definition of "food" as prepared canned or bagged processed pet food. What they are saying here is that canned or bagged processed cat food diet does not need supplemental or additional biotin.

We on the other hand are starting with meats/bones/organs and are trying to ensure that we meet the cat's nutritional requirements with the food first and foremost, and only add the minimal supplements which may be missing for complete health. Cats do need biotin and the best natural source is egg yolks.

So if we're trying to replace B-Complex with nutritional yeast, then we are comparing the differences between the two. Nutritional yeast is missing biotin, inolsitol, choline and PABA. The only one I would worry about there is the biotin...which is easily added to the diet naturally with egg yolk.

 

[mschauer]

Because they said that supplemental biotin is not needed. The FDA and AAFCO are always starting their recommendations based on the definition of "food" as prepared canned or bagged processed pet food. What they are saying here is that canned or bagged processed cat food diet does not need supplemental or additional biotin.

That is not correct. The AAFCO recommendations specify the nutrient levels needed in the finished food. The FDA has no recommendations. They just use the AAFCO recommendations.

 

[orange&white]

That is not correct. The AAFCO recommendations specify the nutrient levels needed in the finished food. The FDA has no recommendations. They just use the AAFCO recommendations.

I'll not quibble over "who said what". Yes, AAFCO makes recommendations but has no regulatory authority and the FDA regulates pet food based on what AAFCO tells them. The article I posted about biotin stated "FDA". Doesn't matter. The two organizations sleep in the same bed as far as processed pet feed goes.

What does matter is that same article states, "According to the FDA, a cat food labeled “complete and balanced” contains enough biotin for your cat's needs." They are starting with the premise that people are feeding processed "approved" pet food, not a raw diet.

So a little further "new" back of the envelope analysis then: The recommended level of biotin for cats is 35mcg/lb of food. 100g (3.52 oz) of chicken liver contains 140mcg of biotin (enough to meet recommendations in 4 pounds of food). With liver being at 5% of the diet, using 3.52 oz of liver, there would be 4.4 pounds of food. The biotin from liver alone would put the food slightly under the minimum recommendation. However, if one were to add 3.52 oz of kidney, the food should be over the minimum recommendation (without even doing additional math).

Conclusion: I will reverse my statement that egg yolks are mandatory if someone wanted to use nutritional yeast in place of a B-Complex supplement. There should me a minimum supply of biotin with other foods without the yolk.

 

[mschauer]

First of all the FDA is irrelevant in this discussion. They do not set nutrient requirements for pet food. In the US only the AAFCO does that.

Second, you are misinterpreting what you are reading. The AAFCO publishes a documentwhich specifies the minimum nutrient levels a manufactured food must contain in orderto meet the nutrient needs of a cat. When a manufacturer produces a food containing various ingredients like meat, organs, whatever else, if the resulting food doesn't contain nutrient levels that meet the AAFCO minimums supplemental amounts of the deficient nutrients need to be added but WITH CAVEATS in some cases. Biotin is one of nutrients with a caveat.

Normally an amount of biotin sufficient to meet the needs of a cat is produced in the gut by bacteria . Therefore, normally, a cat has no need for a food source of biotin. That is, unless there is something that either prevents the gut from producing biotin or prevents the biotin from being bioavailable. Such as antimicrobials that decimate the bacteria or antivitamin compounds that prevent the biotin from being absorbed. In either of those cases biotin the finished food must contain an amount of biotin equal or greater than the minimum specified by the AAFCO to compensate using supplemental biotin if the food ingredients don't contain enough to meet the minimum.

Note that vitamin K is another nutrient the AAFCO specifies a minimum for but with a caveat. It is another vitamin that is produced in the body in sufficient quantities to meet the needs of a cat. UNLESS the diet composition is greater than 25% fish which is enough to prevent sufficient vitamin K from being absorbed and so the finished food may need to contain supplemental vitamin K to compensate.

 

[daftcat75]

I modified my chicken recipe by substituting 16 grams of NOW Nutritional Yeast (NY) for the 1 capsule of NOW B Complex 50 I was using and reran the analysis. The NY compares quite favorably with the B Complex. Choline in the recipe analysis came out a bit low since the NY doesn't contain it. Other than the choline the B vitamin content was sufficient to meet AAFCO recommendations with both.

Phosphorus isn't a problem. The calcium/phosphorus ratio only changed from 1.2 to 1.19.

I'll try to post details in the next day or two. Don't have the time right now.

I found this post while looking for information on using nutritional yeast or brewers yeast as a substitute for B-50. This post is two years old but I'm wondering if this equivalency is still recommended: 16 g NOW brand nutritional yeast to 1 NOW B-50?

 

[kittyluv387]

It was past 9pm and I was about to make cat food and I saw that my source naturals b50 complex had gone bad. It was a bit tacky with black spots and super bad stinky. Thanks to this thread I was able to rush to Central Market to buy their b50 complex. I specifically wanted to buy something with choline since cats do need that. Didn't care that it didn't include PABA though. Thanks all!