Vitamin B Complex

[orange&white]

Biotin, and all of the other ingredients we have discussed in the B-Complex products, with the exception of PABA, do not store up in the organs, so any excess is excreted in the urine. It would be very difficult, I think, to overdose on biotin.

According to the FDA, biotin does not need to be added to your cat’s diet unless the diet contains anti-bacterial or anti-vitamin compounds that have depleted your cat’s biotin.

Egg yolks and liver are both rich in biotin. (There is probably enough in the raw food diet.)

Note: Remember the % daily values are for the human scale.

I'm going to try to look further into why Alnutrin is only added two of the eight real B vitamins to their supplement premix. I expect they analyzed their precise mix, and found no need for most of the B's.

The reason that B-Complex is broadly recommended in raw cat food mixes (ground meat mix in particular) is that air, temperature (freeze/thaw cycles), and moisture can deplete the B-vitamins. That's also why it is recommended to never throw out any defrost water from the cat's food but to serve "the soup" with the food...that water is carrying a lot of the B's and Taurine that seeped out of the mix.

So...that doesn't answer your question about whether 100% or 1000% is the better amount. I don't know the answer to that, but I'm comfortable enough that any truly water soluble vitamin excesses shouldn't have any long run cumulative buildup.

 

[mschauer]

I appreciate this thread being posted though. We assumed complexes were being made equally but I'm even seeing one with 100% of each one.

So here comes a good question. Biotin, I've seen it at 100 and as much as 1,000. How much do we want to keep it around.

I've posted before that recipes that call for a b complex should specify a product that meets the needs of the recipe because not all b complexes are the same. My recipes and analyses include the vitamin make up of the product used in the analysis.

According to the FDA, biotin does not need to be added to your cat’s diet unless the diet contains anti-bacterial or anti-vitamin compounds that have depleted your cat’s biotin.

Does the FDA have any guidelines for biotin in cat food? Or did you mean the AAFCO? They don't specify a suggested minimum amount of biotin for cat food. The NRC notes that biotin should be added if the diet contains raw egg white but that it would be "prudent" to add a small amount ( 60 mcg/kg DM ) even if no raw egg white. I don't use raw egg whites and I don't add biotin. Correction: The B Complex I use ( NOW B Complex 50) does contain biotin, 50 mcg (17% DV).

 

[orange&white]

Does the FDA have any guidelines for biotin in cat food? Or did you mean the AAFCO? They don't specify a suggested minimum amount of biotin for cat food. The NRC notes that biotin should be added if the diet contains raw egg white but that it would be "prudent" to add a small amount ( 60 mcg/kg DM ) even if no raw egg white. I don't use raw egg whites and I don't add biotin. Correction: The B Complex I use ( NOW B Complex 50) does contain biotin, 50 mcg (17% DV).

I did mean the FDA: Cats & Biotin

 

[mschauer]

Interesting. That link contains a link to an FDA web page about pet food. It just references information from the AAFCO though.

 

[orange&white]

AAFCO has no regulating authority over pet food. The FDA does. Pet foods and supplements marketed for pets require FDA review. They do work in close partnership, along with state governments which have ultimate decision-making authority.

 

[mschauer]

I know. I was referring to the biotin information. The FDA doesn't determine nutrient requirements for pet foods. They just cite the AAFCO recommendations.

 

[orange&white]

Good...Sounds like we're on the same page, then. The article didn't claim that FDA set specific requirements, it only noted that the FDA suggests supplementing is not necessary, except in certain cases as noted in the article.

 

[JamesCalifornia]

~ Have you considered brewers yeast ? It's a nutritional yeast that people give to cats and dogs. B complex and other goodies ! My cats like it . It's fairly cheap too. I take it myself as well .
Red Starr Nutritional Brewers Yeast Flakes

 

[JamesCalifornia]

~ Have you considered brewers yeast ? It's a nutritional yeast that people give to cats and dogs. B complex and other goodies ! My cats like it . It's fairly cheap too. I take it myself as well .
Red Starr Nutritional Brewers Yeast Flakes

 

[mschauer]

Good...Sounds like we're on the same page, then. The article didn't claim that FDA set specific requirements, it only noted that the FDA suggests supplementing is not necessary, except in certain cases as noted in the article.

I was only expressing surprise that the FDA would have a page addressing the biotin in pet food. Nothing more.

 

[mschauer]

~ Have you considered brewers yeast ? It's a nutritional yeast that people give to cats and dogs. B complex and other goodies ! My cats like it . It's fairly cheap too. I take it myself as well .
Red Starr Nutritional Brewers Yeast Flakes

That's an interesting idea. One of my cats loves brewers yeast also. I use it to tempt her into trying new foods. I know some people are concerned that brewers yeast might cause an allergic reaction but I've never found any evidence that that is any more likely than an allergic reaction to something chicken or beef. Brewers yeast would certainly taste better than the B Complex products which seem to have a pretty strong, not very good taste. I'm going to look into that.

Thanks for the idea!

 

[valentine319]

That's an interesting idea. One of my cats loves brewers yeast also. I use it to tempt her into trying new foods. I know some people are concerned that brewers yeast might cause an allergic reaction but I've never found any evidence that that is any more likely than an allergic reaction to something chicken or beef. Brewers yeast would certainly taste better than the B Complex products which seem to have a pretty strong, not very good taste. I'm going to look into that.

Thanks for the idea!

Let us know how it goes. I won't be testing it because my cat is already allergic to things.

 

[Ardina]

I use the Jarrow B-Right complex, which doesn't have PABA. Though I haven't personally done the research on whether it's harmful or not, so I'll hold off on making any opinions until I get around to reading some primary literature. I've been wanting to switch to a different brand though because it clumps something awful.

 

[valentine319]

I use the Jarrow B-Right complex, which doesn't have PABA. Though I haven't personally done the research on whether it's harmful or not, so I'll hold off on making any opinions until I get around to reading some primary literature. I've been wanting to switch to a different brand though because it clumps something awful.

My main concern is Paba. It has some Choline which i consider fine and some Inositol which is considered unnecessary from what I've seen but no health concerns I've seen.

I think you're having an issue with the micro encapsulation beadlets for the choline.

 

[orange&white]

Nutritional yeast: Good source of B's. Very high in phosphorus. Rebalancing calcium/phosphorus ratio may be needed, depending on how much nutritional yeast is fed.

 

[mschauer]

I modified my chicken recipe by substituting 16 grams of NOW Nutritional Yeast (NY) for the 1 capsule of NOW B Complex 50 I was using and reran the analysis. The NY compares quite favorably with the B Complex. Choline in the recipe analysis came out a bit low since the NY doesn't contain it. Other than the choline the B vitamin content was sufficient to meet AAFCO recommendations with both.

Phosphorus isn't a problem. The calcium/phosphorus ratio only changed from 1.2 to 1.19.

I'll try to post details in the next day or two. Don't have the time right now.

 

[orange&white]

I would think there would be no choline, inositol or PABA in the nutritional yeast...which as previously noted is a real positive in my book.

16 grams in how many pounds of meat/bones/organ?

Edit: Also, phosphorus is not required/not on the nutrition label. How did you find out how high the phosphorus is?

 

[orange&white]

It also doesn't look like NY contains any biotin, so that would make egg yolks not optional.

 

[mschauer]

I modified my chicken recipe by substituting 16 grams of NOW Nutritional Yeast (NY) for the 1 capsule of NOW B Complex 50 I was using and reran the analysis. The NY compares quite favorably with the B Complex. Choline in the recipe analysis came out a bit low since the NY doesn't contain it. Other than the choline the B vitamin content was sufficient to meet AAFCO recommendations with both.

Phosphorus isn't a problem. The calcium/phosphorus ratio only changed from 1.2 to 1.19.

I'll try to post details in the next day or two. Don't have the time right now.

I should point out that the NOW NY product in used in the analysis is fortified with additional B Vitamins. A quick search shows that maybe products called just 'brewers yeast' (which is another name for nutritional yeast) may not be fortified. More later...

 

[orange&white]

Good point. Nutritional yeast is a fungus grown specifically for use as a nutritional product, not to be confused with brewers yeast which is a by-product of the brewing industry. It is often fortified with additional B-vitamins. Nutritional yeast is not brewers yeast.