Vet is pushing vaccine for my cat with chronic pancreatitis

[goholistic]

I am distraught. Our regular (traditional/Western) vet is pushing that Sebastian get his 3-year rabies vaccine. Sebastian has chronic pancreatitis, and in all seriousness, the vaccine could kill him. He's almost 13 years old and indoors-only.

He needs a check-up, and I have an appointment tentatively scheduled for next Wednesday. When I was confirming the appointment with the vet tech (who called to verify his refill was ready), she said, "Oh, that will be good because he's due for his vaccine," like it was something to celebrate. I said, "Well, I'll have to talk to the doctor about that." She went quiet. I'm wondering if I should cancel the appointment. The doc will want to give him the vaccine while we're there. If I refuse, she may refuse care, and then I'll be left scrambling to find uninterrupted care from a practice that won't vaccinate him. I've had a heart-to-heart with the doc once already, and she agreed to hold off "for now" at that time, but that she could only hold off for so long and that he'll eventually need to get it. Should I go to the appointment and try to talk to her again? I may end up having to do one of two things: 1) let her give him the vaccine or 2) walk out of there.

It is the law here to vaccinate against rabies every 3 years and most, if not all, vets within a 20-mile radius of me are strict in following the rules. You'd think there were officials knocking down doors in my area to check up on people. There are more people dying from gun violence than rabies, for crying out loud, but that's a topic for IMO.

A holistic/homeopathic vet we went to in the same state said she could exempt Sebastian because of his chronic condition. When I told my regular vet about this, she said, "Well, then that other clinic is breaking the law." 

  Apparently the state I live in doesn't have an exemption clause. Why don't we just go to that holistic/homeopathic vet, you ask? Because she's 40-50 minutes away, Sebastian gets extremely stressed out by the ride, I have to pick up refills of fluids and medications multiple times a month, and, because of his condition, it is not uncommon to for us to need to be seen immediately. As much as I/we physically go to the vet, 40-50 minutes is very inconvenient and burdensome. Our regular vet is only 8 minutes away.

I've put a call in to the holistic/homeopathic vet mentioned above, as well as an out-of-state Chinese medicine vet I've been consulting with. They both advised me not to vaccinate Sebastian, so I want their input. Maybe they can convince the regular vet (doubt it) or at least recommend a post-vaccine protocol to limit adverse reactions.

I don't know what to do. I really don't want to break this relationship with our regular vet, but I also don't want to put Sebastian at serious risk that could literally cost him his life. 

 

 

[abbyntim]

I am really sorry you are in this situation. I wish I could offer help; all I can offer is support.

But I do have a question: Is the burden of complying with the rabies vaccination law on the pet owner or on the veterinarian? Meaning, is it the veterinarian's responsibility, under this law, to ensure all pets he or she treats are vaccinated?

I would look at the language of the law in your state and if the burden is on the pet owner, then you should be okay refusing the vaccination. You would be violating the law, however, and subject to penalties. If it makes everyone feel better, perhaps you can create and sign some kind of waiver, accepting full responsibility. If the burden is on the veterinarian, then I don't know.  But a lot of people misquote laws, so if you can find the actual language, not somebody's interpretation, and it supports your position, then by all means, take it with you to your appointment. In California, the responsibility lies with the owner. Not the veterinarian. I would be surprised if the law in your state *requires* veterinarians to vaccinate every animal that crosses their path.

 

[abby2932]

I've read many places though I can't quote where that the directions and warning labels on the bottle of ALL vaccines state that they are NOT to be given to a sick animal. Your Sebastian's chronic illness definitely falls under that category.

I suggest you take him in and refuse the vaccine. If the vet says they have to refuse care, then bring up the warning on the bottle. They may not even know about it since lots of people don't read that stuff.

If they still refuse to see Sebastian without the vaccine I (personally, my own opinion) would thank them and leave. IF his condition worsens after the vaccine you may beat yourself up over it later and (I personally don't think) it is worth the risk.

That's a shame that they would insist on this with an ill, older kitty

 

[denice]

I would find out what the state law actually says about rabies vaccine.  I know I previously had vets tell me that it was state law and it isn't here.  It is for dogs not cats, there are different local laws.  I looked into it when the clinic I go to now quit vaccinating Patches because he probably has some liver damage.  They didn't make any big deal out of it.  I mentioned to the vet after he was well that he had had an allergic reaction to a vaccination and needed pre treated before vaccination.  She said she wasn't going to vaccinate him because his liver didn't need any extra stress.  That was 3 1/2 years ago and vaccines of any kind have not been mentioned for Patches.

 

[abby2932]

http://www.drugs.com/vet/purevax-feline-rabies.html

If you look under Indications, it says the vaccine is to be given to HEALTHY cats 12 weeks of age and older.

I suppose "healthy" is going to be based on the call of your veterinarian but they cannot argue with that. I would definitely bring this up at the visit. It will be on the bottle (or box)

 

[zoneout]

Maybe you could call the agency in your state that is responsible for the law. Some states it is the dept of agriculture. Maybe someone there can advise you exactly what the law is and if you can get a waiver.

 

[catwoman707]

You know, I don't know this to be a fact of course for your state, but in all likelihood it is not the vet's responsibility to make sure all his patients are given the vaccine when due, simply to notify them it is due.

It would be your decision to vax or not, and if not, (and I fully agree NOT) then vet needs to let it go.

If for some really rare instance in 100 lifetimes it were to happen that your cat came down with rabies, bit a child and killed the child, you would be held responsible because you neglected to vaccinate your cat.

You see what I mean here?

It would not make sense for the vet to discontinue your cat's care simply due to your refusal to vaccinate.

Stand your grounds here for your kitty's sake. I fully agree with you.

 

[iluvcats3]

I think you should just lie and say another vet gave the vaccine, or you took the cat to Petsmart or Petco to a vaccine clinic. That's what I used to do when I was really poor and it was cheaper at the vaccine clinic.  I mean, I took that cat to Petsmart, not that I lied. I didn't have to lie because in rural areas, rabies isn't actually required in my state. Now maybe given the discussion you've already had, and the manner in which you access vet care, you won't get away with a believable lie. So there is some information for future cats.  I only vaccinate my indoor cats a few times in their lives (vaccinate them good when young, then a couple times when middle aged) and the vet is mostly OK with that, but because I have had to switch vets around, my answers can be a little dodgy. But the responsibility is on me - she never says I MUST do this (Bats do get in the house, and I actually have a maternal colony of bats up there now so I have some work to do this fall when they move out to migrate south). Sometimes the law is wrong,  and if it isn't just your vet being a pill, then imo it's a moral choice to evade the law.  Some vets say online that rabies is probably good for life, or nearly so, but the laws have not been updated to reflect the new research. I read this in a Cornell cat newsletter years ago, too.  

Well, good luck.  Maybe this vet has a back story - maybe he knows someone who got bitten by a rabid cat or something.  

 

[catwoman707]

I've also found that vets I call "old school" vets, older who are not as current on the latest developments of vet care/medicine, tend to have former ways and beliefs, just like how vets used to say cats need an fvrcp vaccine annually, which we now know is overvaccinating.

Just a thought on this.

 

[weemomma]

You might also try going to a rural vet. I know the vet that is just down the street from me that treats a lot of farmers and their animals is a lot more relaxed when it comes to vaccines. She is also very willing to simply give me what I ask for instead of having to see the cat in person. She knows that traveling is stressful on my cats and figures there's no need to stress them out when they are sick.

 

[peaches08]

I'd put my foot down, but I'm also a jerk. 

  Seriously, there's something about looking at someone with a straight face and asking if they're willing to sign over their house, car(s), 401K, and license over to guarantee me that nothing will come of giving my sensitive, sick, immune-compromised cat a vaccine.  They usually back down.  Being a jerk sometimes pays off. 

 

[goholistic]

Thanks all. I did read the language from the state website, but I didn't think much of it at the time to decipher whether or not it is the burden of the owner or the vet. It appears as though the burden is on the owner.

(b) Vaccination of cats. — Any person owning a cat 6 months of age or older in this State shall have the cat vaccinated against rabies by a veterinarian. The owner of the cat will be responsible for keeping a valid rabies vaccination certificate in his possession for inspection by an animal control officer, the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control, the Department of Agriculture or the Division of Public Health.

(d) Duties of veterinarian. —

(1)  Each licensed veterinarian may select a rabies vaccine of his choice and use procedures for administering it consistent with the recommendations of the Veterinary Biologics Division of the U.S. Department of Agriculture which licenses that vaccine.

(2)  A rabies vaccination certificate will be promptly issued to the owner of each dog or cat vaccinated against rabies. The veterinarian administering the vaccine shall complete the certificate specifying accurately the manufacturer's specifications of the duration of immunity of the rabies vaccination used and the date the animal shall be revaccinated in accordance with the specific criteria of the Compendium or as mandated by State law. The veterinarian shall sign the certificate in a legible manner. The certificate shall also include the veterinarian's address, telephone number and state license number. Veterinarians shall maintain copies of these certificates for a minimum of 12 months after the effective expiration date of the vaccination.

While I can make the argument that it is my burden and not theirs, I suppose they still have the right to refuse care if that is their own business policy.  

After doing some research, my guess is that they are using / have used the Merial Imrab 3 adjuvanted vaccine. When Boo was last at the vet, they vaccinated him.  

  On his certificate, it says "MFG BY: MERIA" assuming that stands for Merial, and since this vet is a rule-follower, they likely used Imrab to cover the three years. I know the non-adjuvanted Purevax has only been available as a one-year rabies vaccine, but I saw this (dated just last month): http://www.merial.com/EN/PressRoom/...uces-PUREVAX®-Feline-Rabies-3-YR-Vaccine.aspx. But even the non-adjuvanted Purevax carries risk.

I am right on the edge of a neighboring state that just last year passed a rabies medical exemption bill. But I'm not sure that helps since we don't live in that state.

P.S. It does say on the Purevax one-year label that it is for the vaccination of  "healthy" cats: http://us.merial.com/pdf/labels/purevaxfelinerabies.pdf

 

[denice]

That language is the same language that Ohio has for dogs.  Vets take a hard line about dogs being vaccinated because of state law.  They don't have the same language about cats but I had vets before the one that I go to tell me the same was true for cats.  They were all general vets that treated dogs also so they may have thought it was the same for cats.  I get the states interest in creating that barrier between people and rabies in wildlife by having companion animals vaccinated but I think there should be room for legitimate exceptions.

 

[abbyntim]

Based on the language you posted, the law certainly does appear to put the duty on the pet owner. I don't see anything that suggests veterinarians are to enforce this law (that would be weird) or would be subject to penalties for failure to vaccinate pets under their care (that would be unreasonable).

So that's good, but does not solve the problem of your relationship with your vet. If I were you, I would keep the appointment but print and take the language of the law. Also take the information about the vaccine itself, which indicates it is to be given to healthy animals. Have a conversation with the vet; it could be she has never seen this language and was under the erroneous assumption that her license or business would be at risk for failure to vaccinate. Talk with her, explain your concerns, show her the language and the information about the vaccine. Offer to sign a waiver. Don't ask for an exemption if your state doesn't permit that; then she would be breaking the law. You are asking her to look the other way, which shouldn't be a big deal unless veterinarians have certain reporting obligations. Hopefully she will not refuse to care for Sebastian, but you need to be prepared to make a choice.

The neighboring state's law does not do you any good, unless you move.

 

[goholistic]

Thanks again. I am keeping the appointment. He's really due for his six-month check-up, so I hope they let us do a blood panel and urinalysis. But I am dreading "the talk". 

  I am just as distressed about losing my relationship with this vet as I am about Sebastian getting the vaccine. If I didn't care about the vet, I'd say whatever and just walk. But they really have been great through everything. That is what makes it so hard.

Actually, as I consider moving in the next few years, I may deliberately choose a state that has an exemption clause!

 

[ritz]

If you really want to get technical: there are a lot of "shall" not "must".
and (d)(1) states in pertinent part ".... consistent with the recommendations of the Veterinary Biologics Division .... which licences that vaccine". So I would wonder what are the recommendations and do they address the underlying health of the cat.

I agree that you should keep the appointment, and decline to have Sebastien vaccinated.
Ritz' FHS symptoms increase dramatically after being vaccinated for either rabies or distemper. She is due for her rabies shot in about a year. I've discussed with the vet about not getting her vaccinated, and my vet won't push the issue. If Ritz does have to have surgery and/or be boarded overnight, then the vet will do blood work to measure the antibodies (?scientific terms may not be accurate). If there are sufficient antibiodies present, she won't need to be vaccinated. Not all states (or vets) allow this exemption.

 

[zoneout]

I would suggest dropping by the vets office before the appt without Sebastian. Just go there and talk it over. If you wait for the appt. and Sebastian is there it is going to make the conversation more difficult and pressured.

I wish you well.

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

I would suggest dropping by the vets office before the appt without Sebastian. Just go there and talk it over. If you wait for the appt. and Sebastian is there it is going to make the conversation more difficult and pressured.

I wish you well.

very good idea! and also, sebastian won't pick up on any stress that GoHolistic might be feeling while discussing it with the vet.

 

[goholistic]

Thanks for the suggestion!  

  Unfortunately, between the vet's hours and my work schedule, I wouldn't be able to drop in before the appointment. I already had to take a personal day off work on Wednesday just to be able to take him in. And it's not really a drop by kind of place (unless it's an emergency). It is a very busy practice.

Actually, it might be helpful that Sebastian is there during the talk. He's been to the vet so many times and everyone loves him. Just one look at him and she may concede. 

 

[goholistic]

If you really want to get technical: there are a lot of "shall" not "must".
and (d)(1) states in pertinent part ".... consistent with the recommendations of the Veterinary Biologics Division .... which licences that vaccine". So I would wonder what are the recommendations and do they address the underlying health of the cat.

Thanks for pointing this out, @Ritz. I'm going to see what I can find on the Veterinary Biologics site.