UTI prescription diet rant.

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jazzyp

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Back again (pester, pester, pester...)

It appears that my cats are pretty willing to accept wet food, and it doesn't have to be the kind with all sorts of nasty stuff in it to attract them.  So...I am thinking of sending back the Friskies, and getting something better:  Triumph.  My main question is, should I exchange the Dave's for Triumph, as well?  It is certainly easier on our budget, and they both appear to be pretty good foods.  I would love to hear from anyone who has experience with these two brands, mostly in terms of how much cats like them.  

One of the reasons I would like to economize is to add a few pure meat items to the diet, especially if I continue to use the 4Health Chicken and Brown Rice as a back-up food.  I've noticed Wysong Epigen and Evanger's.  I have also read some truly horrible things about Evanger's.  Would it be better for me to get they Wysong and mix it with their regular food, or should I just try adding some chunks of raw meat?  I've found a site I kind of like, Hare Today, that sells all kinds of raw items.  Some of what they offer is pricey,  and I would probably go to them for chicken or pork, but their prices for things like rabbit, beef trim, and organ meats are pretty amazing.  My dog could probably benefit from some of these things, as well.

I will probably be starting a new thread, asking for people's experience with Hare Today.  I apologize for any redundancy, but there may be raw food fans who never see this, and I would like their input.
 
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If you have questions on raw feeding, go to the subheading on this nutrition forum, the folks there are veterans & will be able to help answer those questions.

I'm not familiar with most of the foods you mention. I can vouch for Dave's restricted low magnesium and phosphorous as being a good food. Mr Sparky eats that and Natures Variety Instinct, rabbit and chicken. I've just yesterday finished up the last of the RC script canned foods. I transitioned off the RC with 1/2 and 1/2. I'll continue the 1/2 and 1/2 but now with Dave's and NVI. No kibble at all, just canned. Treats are Pure Bites, freeze dried, chicken and duck. So far I'm pleased with his general health and his poo's have remained solid the whole time. He does have a bit of vomiting, about once a week, due to hairballs and am addressing that with Catlax from the vet. Daily brushing just hasn't been enough with his medium long hair. Hope this helps a bit?
 
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jazzyp

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I posted a question about the Hare Today site in the homemade and raw forum.  As far as the other questions, I think I remember someone mentioning Triumph as a good canned food.  Between Epigen and raw, I am kind of leaning toward raw, but hoping someone who has tried the brand can weigh in.  Convincing my housemate to get raw meat especially for pets is going to be a hard sell.  

I still have a bag of Science Diet prescription kibble on order.  I really want to send it back the moment it arrives, but part of me is sort of clinging to it just in case, sort of like a child holds onto a smelly, ravelling security blanket.  
 
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Quote below from" "Low ash cat foods: The role of magnesium in feline nutrition", by R. Glenn Brown, in   Can Vet J. 1989 Jan; 30(1): 73–79.. It is old, I know, but ...

Prev Vet Med.  2002 Sep 10;55(1):1-15. Diet and lifestyle variables as risk factors for chronic renal failure in pet cats (Hughes et al) ) even quote low magnesium diet among causes of kidney failure.

.

"Chauson (12) found that, with purified diets, 400 mg/kg of magnesium would maintain normal circulating levels. The CVMA standard for dietary magnesium level is 500 mg/kg. 

Consumption of excessive amounts (> 3500 mg/kg) of magnesium is associated with the development of urinary calculi (15). There is some suggestion that the level of mineral in the diet may not be as important as balance; the animal's ability to regulate uptake of magnesium from the gut is also a factor." and further on:  " Magnesium alone is obviously not the only factor in producing struvite.".

From the above info, I doubt on the positive impact of the low magnesium in the diet. Yes, it is advisable not to be excessive. But looks very difficult to reach the concentration that is considered "excessive", taking into account the current regulation and practices.

So, unless the vet specifically reccomnanded  low-magnesium food (or if he/she will say so), I see no reason in hunting for very low magnesium concentration food. 

===

As for the commercial products, I do not know the USA market, but as a rule of thumb keeping things simple and close to natural is a safe way to go.

Want full control of the diet? Then go for raw and home-made.  But this option has a price  - discussed in details elsewhere.
 

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That is an interesting article from a couple of decades ago. Probably some truth still after all these years. I read that the crystals was from a combination of genetics, stress and food. You can work in a positive direction on two of those, the genetics you get what you get. I based my info on what Dr Pierson wrote on cat info.org   Even she said that any canned, even Friskies, with extra water was better than any kibble. I'd send that SD kibble back if it was me.
.  Honestly, I went cross eyed reading nutrition labels. With commercial foods you need pick your battles, as there is no perfect canned food. Only if you feed raw/homemade and know the source of all the ingredients, including supplements, can you control what the cat eats.

As for converting roomie, unless your and her animals free feed off the same dishes, I'd leave her to make her own choices. No sense in adding stress to your home.
 
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jazzyp

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Quote below from" "Low ash cat foods: The role of magnesium in feline nutrition", by R. Glenn Brown, in   Can Vet J. 1989 Jan; 30(1): 73–79.. It is old, I know, but ...

Prev Vet Med.  2002 Sep 10;55(1):1-15. Diet and lifestyle variables as risk factors for chronic renal failure in pet cats (Hughes et al) ) even quote low magnesium diet among causes of kidney failure.

.

"Chauson (12) found that, with purified diets, 400 mg/kg of magnesium would maintain normal circulating levels. The CVMA standard for dietary magnesium level is 500 mg/kg. 

Consumption of excessive amounts (> 3500 mg/kg) of magnesium is associated with the development of urinary calculi (15). There is some suggestion that the level of mineral in the diet may not be as important as balance; the animal's ability to regulate uptake of magnesium from the gut is also a factor." and further on:  " Magnesium alone is obviously not the only factor in producing struvite.".

From the above info, I doubt on the positive impact of the low magnesium in the diet. Yes, it is advisable not to be excessive. But looks very difficult to reach the concentration that is considered "excessive", taking into account the current regulation and practices.

So, unless the vet specifically reccomnanded  low-magnesium food (or if he/she will say so), I see no reason in hunting for very low magnesium concentration food. 

===

As for the commercial products, I do not know the USA market, but as a rule of thumb keeping things simple and close to natural is a safe way to go.

Want full control of the diet? Then go for raw and home-made.  But this option has a price  - discussed in details elsewhere.
The only thing my vet specifically recommended was dry Science Diet c/d.  He didn't explain why.  He did say that he likes kibble more than canned food for cats, believing it to be more "sanitary."  The subject of raw never came up.  

He did stress the importance of keeping a cat hydrated, and then said that my overweight, UTI cat should be drinking 2-4 cups of water a day.  I almost fell over.  Four cups is about half what they suggest for an average human, and he was mentioning it as reasonable for an 18-lb. cat???

I don't want to do a lot of special diets, not forever.  I want to get my cats eating as closely as possible to the diet nature gave them.  
 

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2-4 cups a day, wow, don't blame you, I'd be shocked too.

My vet whom I adore and is fantastic with diagnosis and treatments, does not believe in raw. He has a fit if hears any of his patients being fed raw. His main objection is the germs, during prep time and the transfer of those germs, after the animal eating raw, to other animals and the people whom care for the pet. I've seen in the dog world where raw was the only thing that brought back a sickly dog to good health and quality of life. IMO, when following proper guidelines during preparation and storage ect, it is no more dangerous than commercial foods. How many times have we heard of recalls due to salmonella or other bacteria from companies that we trusted to do right for our pets?
 
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solomonar

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That is an interesting article from a couple of decades ago. Probably some truth still after all these years. I read that the crystals was from a combination of genetics, stress and food. You can work in a positive direction on two of those, the genetics you get what you get. I based my info on what Dr Pierson wrote on cat info.org   Even she said that any canned, even Friskies, with extra water was better than any kibble. I'd send that SD kibble back if it was me.
.  Honestly, I went cross eyed reading nutrition labels. With commercial foods you need pick your battles, as there is no perfect canned food. Only if you feed raw/homemade and know the source of all the ingredients, including supplements, can you control what the cat eats.

As for converting roomie, unless your and her animals free feed off the same dishes, I'd leave her to make her own choices. No sense in adding stress to your home.
Agree.  

Still, dry food has conveniences that could pay back in some circumstances:

- easy to control the fabrication and to keep the formula

- the only way to do "free-feeding"

- less problematic in the manipulation

However, t it is difficult to find reliable dry food manufacturers. 

I also agree with your point about reading nutrition labels. We cant read them correctly for even simplier food for human consumption. 

====

Personally, I buy my food from a local store, which sells local brands. He also trends to be very correct in what is saying to me. He tells me what I need to know, dont cheat, dont lie. Sometimes he sells very expensive, and I know that. But I know what I buy - this is very important to me and helps a lot in making the right decisions. 
 
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jazzyp

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Quote below from" "Low ash cat foods: The role of magnesium in feline nutrition", by R. Glenn Brown, in   Can Vet J. 1989 Jan; 30(1): 73–79.. It is old, I know, but ...

Prev Vet Med.  2002 Sep 10;55(1):1-15. Diet and lifestyle variables as risk factors for chronic renal failure in pet cats (Hughes et al) ) even quote low magnesium diet among causes of kidney failure.

.

"Chauson (12) found that, with purified diets, 400 mg/kg of magnesium would maintain normal circulating levels. The CVMA standard for dietary magnesium level is 500 mg/kg. 

Consumption of excessive amounts (> 3500 mg/kg) of magnesium is associated with the development of urinary calculi (15). There is some suggestion that the level of mineral in the diet may not be as important as balance; the animal's ability to regulate uptake of magnesium from the gut is also a factor." and further on:  " Magnesium alone is obviously not the only factor in producing struvite.".

From the above info, I doubt on the positive impact of the low magnesium in the diet. Yes, it is advisable not to be excessive. But looks very difficult to reach the concentration that is considered "excessive", taking into account the current regulation and practices.

So, unless the vet specifically reccomnanded  low-magnesium food (or if he/she will say so), I see no reason in hunting for very low magnesium concentration food. 

===

As for the commercial products, I do not know the USA market, but as a rule of thumb keeping things simple and close to natural is a safe way to go.

Want full control of the diet? Then go for raw and home-made.  But this option has a price  - discussed in details elsewhere.
 
That is an interesting article from a couple of decades ago. Probably some truth still after all these years. I read that the crystals was from a combination of genetics, stress and food. You can work in a positive direction on two of those, the genetics you get what you get. I based my info on what Dr Pierson wrote on cat info.org   Even she said that any canned, even Friskies, with extra water was better than any kibble. I'd send that SD kibble back if it was me.
.  Honestly, I went cross eyed reading nutrition labels. With commercial foods you need pick your battles, as there is no perfect canned food. Only if you feed raw/homemade and know the source of all the ingredients, including supplements, can you control what the cat eats.

As for converting roomie, unless your and her animals free feed off the same dishes, I'd leave her to make her own choices. No sense in adding stress to your home.
I read Dr. Pierson's article, and Friskies is one of the things I plan to return!  :D

Yes, reading literally hundreds of nutrition labels will make your head hurt.  Mine is still throbbing.  

Roomie and me...it's a different sort of thing.  She is old enough to be my mom, and that is sort of what our relationship is like.  I live here rent-free, contribute what I can to the bills, cook and clean, and take physical care of our pets.  She pays most of the bills and has final authority over most purchases.  That might make her sound very mean, in the monetary sense, but she is not, not at all.  She has, without fail, helped me to care for my pets, including hospitalization for a cat and x-rays in the middle of the night for a dog I ended up having to have put to sleep.

However, she is very inclined to accept the advice of anyone she sees as an authority figure, and that includes vets who may or may not be well-versed in animal nutrition.  
 

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2-4 cups a day, wow, don't blame you, I'd be shocked too.

My vet whom I adore and is fantastic with diagnosis and treatments, does not believe in raw. He has a fit if hears any of his patients being fed raw. His main objection is the germs, during prep time and the transfer of those germs, after the animal eating raw, to other animals and the people whom care for the pet. I've seen in the dog world where raw was the only thing that brought back a sickly dog to good health and quality of life. IMO, when following proper guidelines during preparation and storage ect, it is no more dangerous than commercial foods. How many times have we heard of recalls due to salmonella or other bacteria from companies that we trusted to do right for our pets?
Agree. 

I should not worry about contamination if precaution rules are respected. However, people may easily neglect the rules because they dont know sufficiently about hygene when manipulating raw meat.

Bear in mind that one hour from dead, bacteria start growing. And they continue to grow even in refrigerator/freezer, at lower speed, right, but they still grow.

The name of the game is the concentration of the bacteria, not their presence.... They are always there ....
 

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This by no means scientific nor do I recommend this course of action. This is my experience from having had, decades ago, 3 different male cats show up whom decided to stay. They were indoor/outdoor, showed up as kittens. All three where terrific mousers and would kill and eat anything from mouse size to rabbits that were bigger than themselves. I fed dry kibble, Meow Mix mostly, so they'd have something to munch on if the hunting was lean and none of these three cats ever had any urinary problems or any other organ issues and lived to 12-15 yrs. I had them neutered early, they got yearly shots, monthly flea treatments and took care any other medical issues that arose, mostly dings from fighting with racoons.

Now, my recent shelter adoptee is about 3 yrs old, can 'only' be an indoor cat, my neighborhood is not safe for loose cats, he came with FLUD & crystal diagnosis & bloody urine, and I went cross eyed trying to figure out what to feed him that won't tip the cart in the wrong way. A whole lot of good to be said about feeding closer to what they'd eat if left to hunt their own foods. I'm not ready to make the jump to raw but may in the future.
 
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The only thing my vet specifically recommended was dry Science Diet c/d.  He didn't explain why.  He did say that he likes kibble more than canned food for cats, believing it to be more "sanitary."  The subject of raw never came up.  

He did stress the importance of keeping a cat hydrated, and then said that my overweight, UTI cat should be drinking 2-4 cups of water a day.  I almost fell over.  Four cups is about half what they suggest for an average human, and he was mentioning it as reasonable for an 18-lb. cat???

I don't want to do a lot of special diets, not forever.  I want to get my cats eating as closely as possible to the diet nature gave them.  
If one cant follow strictly the hygene rules, then kibble is a safer bet. "Good" or "bad" is not only about the food, but also about the one giving the food. If you are a busy person or a "dreamer" then better go for kibble. If you are a "cat -centered" person, wet may be better.

Brand? Is also about experience of the vet. If he/she find a certain brand as mor reliable from the cats cases he/she encountered, then you shall trust him. If he/she just sell that brand, better ask yourself whether are not better choices around.

Cup? I do not know this colume unit. Could you please say in volume units? Mteric or Imperial.
 
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If one cant follow strictly the hygene rules, then kibble is a safer bet. "Good" or "bad" is not only about the food, but also about the one giving the food. If you are a busy person or a "dreamer" then better go for kibble. If you are a "cat -centered" person, wet may be better.

Brand? Is also about experience of the vet. If he/she find a certain brand as mor reliable from the cats cases he/she encountered, then you shall trust him. If he/she just sell that brand, better ask yourself whether are not better choices around.

Cup? I do not know this colume unit. Could you please say in volume units? Mteric or Imperial.
One cup is 240mL.  I didn't know this, but I do love Google.  ;)  

I am cat-centered, and totally turned off on kibble.  I do not automatically trust vets about nutrition.  Most vets aren't nutritionists, and actually, a growing number are coming out against kibble, anyway.  I do not know where you are, but here in the US, the Hills company, the folks who make Science Diet, supply a lot of educational material to vet schools, so it's not surprising that these vets are somewhat biased in favor of SD.  They were taught to be.  However, a quick glance at the ingredients is revealing.  It's not pretty, and it's overpriced for what it is.  The prescription diets are even worse.  Too much grain, too little meat, too over-processed, and so on...  

Canned and raw will be more work, but worth it, IMO.  After all, I wouldn't live on a diet of Doritos and Hershey bars, then supplement them with a vitamin pill every day and think that was healthy.  Why should I treat my cats any differently?  
 

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Yes, you said so. But I wonder whether your vet meant  0.25 liter. So I searched for possible sources of confusion.

A cat drinking 1 liter of water per day - looks indeed to much.
 
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jazzyp

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Yes, you said so. But I wonder whether your vet meant  0.25 liter. So I searched for possible sources of confusion.

A cat drinking 1 liter of water per day - looks indeed to much.
It would be a lot more than I have ever seen one drink.  Actually, I would be worried about any cat that drank that much.  
 
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More raves for Chewy.  People are going to start thinking I work for them.  

I called today to change my autoship, ask about returns, and update some credit information, as we have had to replace all our cards recently, due to a phone scam.  I explained that I had found some other food on their site that was better suited to what I want to feed my cats.  They cheerfully took down the new information, and when I asked them how to go about returning the unwanted food, they said there was no need this first time, to give it to someone who needs it.  I was astounded.  I know they have extended this kindness to people whose pets have died, but to do it just because I felt that I had chosen unwisely?  That is above and beyond customer service I have ever seen anywhere, at any time.  
 
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