Two Queens Co-parenting Question.

[gtmoy]

Hi everyone,

I brought home 2 pregnant foster cats on July 29. I put one in a 3 tier cage in the foster room and one free in the room. The smaller of the two had her 4 kittens on the 30th, so I got her just in the nick of time from having to have them in a 2x2 cage. One of them she ignored until I broke the sac and got breathing, then she took over.

I've been acclimating them to each other, since the shelter I foster for is under funded and I'm trying my best to safely help as many cats as possible.

Today, the 10th of August is the first time I let them out together the whole day and there was no drama at all! Yay!

Any how, after work today the still pregnant cat started cleaning the kittens and would sit opposite the mom with the kittens sandwiched between offering to nurse them. I separated them for now.

My questions are: Should I keep them separated, since I assume it's important to keep the colostrum in the second queen for her yet to be born kittens.
Since the kittens will be close to or greater than 2 weeks apart, once they're born, should I keep them separated since so the older kittens don't hurt the young one playing too rough.

The shelter told me even if I had to keep them separated all 12 weeks, it would still be nicer for the cats to be raised in a home rather than an over flowing cat room.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post

 

[red top rescue]

I've had mothers co-parenting kittens before, and recently one litter was 2 days old and the other litter was 3 weeks old. They came to me from neighbors who had a house fire, and the mama cats came the next day after they returned to their burned house. I set them each up on one side of the rescue room, with a carrier with no door on it as a nest for each. They pretty much stayed in their separate spaces until the younger kittens got big enough to start exploring and then the mothers supervised the play, so if the older ones got too rough, the mama of the younger ones would step in.

It's wonderful your mama cats get along already. I wouldn't worry about the older kittens stealing the colostrum because she probably won't have any until the new babies are born, but I would definitely set her up in her own space for the birth, and she will probably be looking for a dark place like a closet or carrier with a towel over it when that happens. I think it's sweet that she likes the existing kittens now and personally I would not separate her now.

The only problems I've had in the past with co-parenting is when the kittens were about the same age and the mamas shared the same nest, I had to make sure the smallest kittens were getting enough milk. You have to do that anyhow, but it's harder with two moms and 9 kittens than one mom and four or five kittens.

It's wonderful you are fostering these mothers and their babies and giving them a great start in life.

 

[gtmoy]

Thanks for your reply. I let momma #2 out this morning and I think she's definitely the alpha of the two. She "took" one when I went to change their towels. Of course I'm sure momma #1 doesn't mind the break

Her mothering instinct only seemed to kick in yesterday, prior to that I could put a kitten up to her and she would ignore it. I'm guessing/hoping she's close as her food intake is down and I can feel the kittens moving.

I think I'll stick to supervised time until she delivers. That way she'll be more preoccupied.

 

[Sarthur2]

She's clearly very close to giving birth with her mothering instinct kicking in!

Let us know how the co-parenting goes. We've had other forum members who had great success with it!

 

[gtmoy]

Well I checked on her at lunch today and she had 5 kittens with her and was in a pool of blood. I rushed her to the vet and they said one of the kittens probably scratched her on the way out, but she is going to be ok and to keep an eye on her.

While I was typing this a 6th came out.

 

[gtmoy]

7 now. I had to help her out, she's exhausted. She only cleaned it enough for it to breathe. I had to clean it the rest of the way off and bring the umbilical cord up to her face to get her to cut it off. Don't worry I'm not letting her eat anymore placenta. 5 is plenty I'm guessing.

 

[Sarthur2]

Oh my! Are all the kittens nursing well?

Bring mama her food in her nest. She may not want to leave her kittens right away.

Watch carefully for a runt. With 7, there may be one or two kittens who get bullied off the best nipples.

Weighing the kittens daily is advised. They should each gain a minimum of 6-10 grams per day.

 

[gtmoy]

Surprisingly they are all over 100g
Blk 1 120g
Blk 2 115g
OR 118g
Gry 115g
Tab 1 104g
Tab 2 114g

Oddly enough after a couple of hours she left her nest and went to check on the other 4 kittens. I moved her back and she did it once more a little while later. Maybe she wants to trade workoads! I'll keep an eye on them and separate if it becomes an issue.

Hopefully if I do end up with a runt, Momma #1 will be willing to donate to the cause.

It's gonna be hard to differentiate the two black and two tabbies.

 

[Sarthur2]

The weights are excellent, especially for 7 kittens. You missed one though!

Watch the smallest one!

It will be easier to tell them apart when their personalities begin to emerge.

You'll need to get a box that has no holes. Laundry baskets with holes are dangerous for kittens. They can easily injure a leg, paw, or even head in the holes.

What is the black thing with the cord in the first picture?

They look great!

 

[gtmoy]

Thanks for the advice! The black thing is a web cam I use to keep tabs on them. That's how I knew to come home from work today.

Momma #2 (Eliza) is still leaving her nest trying to sit in momma #1 (Stella's) nest. I've been moving her back and she doesn't fuss when I do. I'm just not sure what to make of it.

I have only been fostering queens since April of this year, so I'm still green at it. Although my 1st had 3 miscarriages, and one was a breach birth that I had to deliver after she couldn't push out for 10 minutes. Stella and Eliza are my 3rd and 4th.

I might move Stella to the cage for now since it'll probably be easier for her to get between levels.

 

[gtmoy]

Update: I went to check on Eliza this morning and 2 of the kittens were missing. I found them hidden behind a carrier. They were warm and responsive. I moved them back and put them on her nipples.

Is she rejecting them? Do I need to worry?


Thanks

Edit: I checked the camera footage and she moved them out at 6:20 am and I got them back in at 6:50 am, so they weren't out too long. She kept them all night. I started to feed my other cats at 6:10, so maybe she heard noises and started moving them. Once she moved the 2 though, she got back in the nest and started nursing the others.

Edit 2: The 7 kittens are fighting for milk, so I moved 2 to Stella (supervised) for milk and then move them back, I hope that is ok.

 

[Sarthur2]

Yes, that is okay. This is what I was telling you to watch for.

You should rotate them - the 4 biggest in one group and the 3 smallest in the other group. Rotate every 2 hours.

Put the group who is not with mom in a separate box with a heat source such as a heating pad set on low under a blanket, or a rice sock microwaved for 5 minutes, then wrapped in a towel and placed nearby.

Do this throughout the day. You can leave them all together with mom while you sleep at night.

 

[gtmoy]

That's going to be difficult, I'm just a single guy with a day job. Maybe I'll keep them together during the day and just wake up every two hours and do the rotations 5p to 6a

Do you think I should bother with getting some KMR to keep on hand?

Thanks!

 

[Sarthur2]

Yes, you should get a can of PetAg powdered KMR. Both moms should have a dish a day for the calcium while nursing.

Can you rotate all day today and tomorrow?

Then in the evenings you can rotate 2-3 times after work before bed.

It's only for the first 3 weeks.

 

[gtmoy]

I actually have a part time job Sat/Sun too The shelter I foster for doesn't have any money, so I take cats that need extra help. Last year I spent $1,500 on a cat dumped at the shelter that wasn't eating. I had to get a feeding tube put in, ultrasound, blood/urine tests, and a ton of food.

These two mommas have a diarrhea issue. I've done a fecal, pyrantel, panacur, and revolution. Luckily I found a vet that gives me steep discounts or free service for my fosters!

I'll rotate them as often as I can.

Thanks again for all the advice

Edit: does anyone know if it is safe to give them ponazuril? I found out my previous litter had coccidia, so more than likely it spread around the shelter.

 

[gtmoy]

Okay, I got home and she moved them all to the corner the other two were in this morning, so I guess she just doesn't like that box or location.

I'll pickup some KMR tonight, I never knew mommas need it too.

Update: she had watery diarrhea and then followed it with vomiting. I could see all the kitten poos she ate in the vomit. I'm going to try to find a vet asap.

 

[gtmoy]

Waiting to be seen by a vet. I did tent test on her and it's no good. She threw up again during the drive to the vet. Sigh

 

[talkingpeanut]

Thank you for all that you're doing. Let us know what the vet says.

 

[gtmoy]

Fecal came back negative.
She wouldn't let them draw blood and they were worried about giving her anesthetic to get a draw so I am being sent home with antibiotics. She did tolerate getting sub-q fluids, so at least she's hydrated.

Would it be a good idea to start supplementing the kittens to take the load off of her?

I'm so lucky that Stella stepped up to the plate to help. Before I even left she was cleaning them and offering milk!

 

[Sarthur2]

Oh my! Good you went to the vet. How is this mama doing now?

Did they test her calcium level? She may need calcium. Did you get the KMR?

Supplement the kittens if they need it. Do you know how to feed tiny kittens?

Have you weighed them today?

It's actually good you have another nursing mom right now.

And yes, the ponazuril is safe to give. Coccidia does not always show up in a fecal.