Trouble in Raw Paradise - Clostridium perfringens and my cats

jmeli

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Thank you for sharing all of this Carolina!  All of my cats have been battling with chronic diarrhea off and on for 2+ years.  We have been through multiple PCR's.  

Going back and looking at them, the very first PCR was positive for Clostridium Perf for one cat but none of the others since then showed it positive.  The vet said she wasn't too concerned since most cats have some degree of it in their system from time to time.  That has been the only positive thing on the PCR's.  I have also tested for T. Foetus twice and negative each time.

I think i will discuss this with my vet this week.  I have been using refrigerated  S.Boulardii to stop the diarrhea at onset but never stuck with it for 30+ days straight.  I will now after reading your post and likely keep them on it.

 I do use Dr. Mercola's pet probiotic pretty regularly which has S. Boulardii in it, but with the dosage they get maybe it isn't high enough or even a good quality S. Boulardii.
 

knobby wheezer

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Caveat:

As a result of this thread, I tried the S boulardii for my cat.  He clearly had the same problem again as last time which was a few months ago now.  I had been using Slippery Elm Bark, but it didn't work this time and I turned to the internet.  I found this thread.   I did what this thread said and . . . MAJOR BARF (preceeded by yodelling) occurred withing 10 minutes of ingestion---right after he had yet another slimy diarrhea bowel movement.

We took him to the emergency vet.  I had already taken a stool sample to our regular vet for testing (more on that momentarily).  This emergency vet gave him a run of metronidazole.  The meds worked.  The emergency vet was shocked that this med was not given last time he had clostridial perfringens.  I have changed vets.

The stool sample (that I had given to our now old vet) was tested for . . . giardia.  Say WHAT?  I specifically asked to have the sample tested for Clostridial perfringens (sometimes written Clostridium perfringens).  Whatever.  Just re-enforces the notion that changing vets was The Best Thing to do.

The point, however, is that this S boulardii is not a cure-all and is not for all cats in all situations.  Your cat, too, may respond by just BARFING (and, perhaps yodelling, too).

The new vet also said that Slippery Elm Bark doesn't really do anything.  If it looks like it only took 4 days to work, it was probably the cat's own system that ejected the infection.  It can happen.
 
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carolina

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Hi, glad your kitty is better.
I don't think I have ever said Boulardii is a cure for all... I simply shared my experience in this thread. What I did, how I did, and how it worked.
I don't remember when I first wrote this thread.... I believe it's been over two years....
My cats never relapsed. All four are doing great.
As for the vet's reaction... I understand... Most don't know Boulardii, and would highly doubt a probiotic would kill clostridium. My vet thought the same way. He too wanted me to treat with Metro.... I was the one who told him I wanted to treat with Boulardii first.... And it worked. I worked with my vet of course, and now he knows what it can do.
Hope your cat makes a full recovery :wavey:
 
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knobby wheezer

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I wasn't saying that YOU said it was a cure-all, but that some people (myself included) may think it is based on nothing else working and how good it worked for you.  I was exceedingly hopeful . . . and was very disappointed.

Metronidazole was never precribed previously.  The 2nd time he went to our (now old) vet, he was presribed Convenia (as an injectable).  The 1st time, he got Famotidine.  Yet, it was Clostridium perfringens all three times.  Only the last vet (emergency and now our current vet) prescribed metronidazole.

He's well.  He's now recovering from something else entirely (dental extraction---re-absorbing lesion).
 
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carolina

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Caveat:

As a result of this thread, I tried the S boulardii for my cat.  He clearly had the same problem again as last time which was a few months ago now.  I had been using Slippery Elm Bark, but it didn't work this time and I turned to the internet.  I found this thread.   I did what this thread said and . . . MAJOR BARF (preceeded by yodelling) occurred withing 10 minutes of ingestion---right after he had yet another slimy diarrhea bowel movement.

We took him to the emergency vet.  I had already taken a stool sample to our regular vet for testing (more on that momentarily).  This emergency vet gave him a run of metronidazole.  The meds worked.  The emergency vet was shocked that this med was not given last time he had clostridial perfringens.  I have changed vets.

The stool sample (that I had given to our now old vet) was tested for . . . giardia.  Say WHAT?  I specifically asked to have the sample tested for Clostridial perfringens (sometimes written Clostridium perfringens).  Whatever.  Just re-enforces the notion that changing vets was The Best Thing to do.

The point, however, is that this S boulardii is not a cure-all and is not for all cats in all situations.  Your cat, too, may respond by just BARFING (and, perhaps yodelling, too).

The new vet also said that Slippery Elm Bark doesn't really do anything.  If it looks like it only took 4 days to work, it was probably the cat's own system that ejected the infection.  It can happen.
You say the first vet tested the stools for giardia, not for clostridium.
Caveat:

As a result of this thread, I tried the S boulardii for my cat.  He clearly had the same problem again as last time which was a few months ago now.  I had been using Slippery Elm Bark, but it didn't work this time and I turned to the internet.  I found this thread.   I did what this thread said and . . . MAJOR BARF (preceeded by yodelling) occurred withing 10 minutes of ingestion---right after he had yet another slimy diarrhea bowel movement.

We took him to the emergency vet.  I had already taken a stool sample to our regular vet for testing (more on that momentarily).  This emergency vet gave him a run of metronidazole.  The meds worked.  The emergency vet was shocked that this med was not given last time he had clostridial perfringens.  I have changed vets.

The stool sample (that I had given to our now old vet) was tested for . . . giardia.  Say WHAT?  I specifically asked to have the sample tested for Clostridial perfringens (sometimes written Clostridium perfringens).  Whatever.  Just re-enforces the notion that changing vets was The Best Thing to do.

The point, however, is that this S boulardii is not a cure-all and is not for all cats in all situations.  Your cat, too, may respond by just BARFING (and, perhaps yodelling, too).

The new vet also said that Slippery Elm Bark doesn't really do anything.  If it looks like it only took 4 days to work, it was probably the cat's own system that ejected the infection.  It can happen.
Forgive me, but I am trying to understand this.
You said the first vet tested the stools for giardia, and not for clostridium, as you requested.
It also appears that you found out about it at the second vet, after a course of Metro had been given.
Has a second PCR test for Clostridium been done by the second vet to confirm the diagnosis?
Because While metronidazole will work for both Giardia and Clostridium, Boulardii will not work for giardia.
Clostridium will only be caught in pcr tests that takes days to come back and yes, are quite expensive.
Do you have a positive pcr test for clostridium aside from the first one that was tested for giardia?
Because if not... Are you sure this was clostridium?
 
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carolina

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I wasn't saying that YOU said it was a cure-all, but that some people (myself included) may think it is based on nothing else working and how good it worked for you.  I was exceedingly hopeful . . . and was very disappointed.

Metronidazole was never precribed previously.  The 2nd time he went to our (now old) vet, he was presribed Convenia (as an injectable).  The 1st time, he got Famotidine.  Yet, it was Clostridium perfringens all three times.  Only the last vet (emergency and now our current vet) prescribed metronidazole.

He's well.  He's now recovering from something else entirely (dental extraction---re-absorbing lesion).
btw.... Convenia and famotidine.... Sigh.... I am glad you left that vet....
 

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Caveat:

As a result of this thread, I tried the S boulardii for my cat.  He clearly had the same problem again as last time which was a few months ago now.  I had been using Slippery Elm Bark, but it didn't work this time and I turned to the internet.  I found this thread.   I did what this thread said and . . . MAJOR BARF (preceeded by yodelling) occurred withing 10 minutes of ingestion---right after he had yet another slimy diarrhea bowel movement.
First of all, I'm so glad things are under control now!

I just wanted to chime in here regarding the puking on the S boulardii. Fortunately this is rare. I'm sorry it happened to your kitty. :rub:

But when things like this happen, the usual advice is to back up and start over, introducing the supplement slowly. Clearly your kitty was in distress and needed an e-vet, so things had progressed to the point that wasn't an option. But for the benefit of others reading this thread, when adding something new to the diet, puking at a full dose doesn't mean the cat is intolerant to it, period.
 
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carolina

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Caveat:
The point, however, is that this S boulardii is not a cure-all and is not for all cats in all situations.  Your cat, too, may respond by just BARFING (and, perhaps yodelling, too).
I am also confused about this..... Are you trying to say that barfing might help in expelling clostridium and curing the disease?

The new vet also said that Slippery Elm Bark doesn't really do anything.  If it looks like it only took 4 days to work, it was probably the cat's own system that ejected the infection.  It can happen.
Also confused about this..... Whose cat got cured from clostridium in 4 days with Boulardii?
 
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knobby wheezer

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From my understanding of the post at the beginning of this page, Bugsy and Mac got the cure with S boulardii.  Obviously, I can't read or understand what I am reading.  If I could delete everything that I put here, I would.
 
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carolina

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From my understanding of the post at the beginning of this page, Bugsy and Mac got the cure with S boulardii.  Obviously, I can't read or understand what I am reading.  If I could delete everything that I put here, I would.
not in 4 days, they didn't. Never said that. Never would.
Getting formed stools is one thing.... Getting cured is another completely different thing.
They all got cured from clostridium. But it took a month of treatment. Not four days.
 
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knobby wheezer

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Obviously, I can't read or understand what I am reading.  If I could delete everything that I put here, I would.
 

disssy

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Hi,

Thanks for the info.

Last November little Newb walked into my kitchen and stayed. A stray, appr 5 months old, he looked quite healthy.

But within days I noticed he had vile diarrhea - 3 to 8 times per day, liquid, grey, stinky...

Nonetheless, he gained weight while I experimented with different diets and supplements. Blood tests were all normal, by the way...

Anyhoo... this thread here made me aware of SB (+MOS). Thing is, here in Ireland I could only get SB with FOS, not MOS...

That did not help. Nor did any of the science diets (wink....)... Eventually, I settled on Meowing Heads wet food. It didn't 'cure' little Newb, but he stopped 'going' every two hours.

And he was less ravenous.

THEN, one day... NO Meowing Heads in stock anywhere... Somebody recommended a wetfood called Forthglade Natural (google it) instead.

It's 85% meat, grain-free, "hypo allergenic". And within 36 hours of feeding it, Newb was free!!!! No more diarrhea! No more bad breath. Not ravenous anymore.

Today I checked the tiny print on the label, and guess what: one ingredient in Forthglade is MOS! (not listed on the website, I think,but it's on the packaging).

It does NOT contain SB, but now I wonder if MOS is the actual 'miracle'? Maybe it 'feeds' some 'good' bacteria, and thus forces out some bad ones?

I'm simplifying, of course ;)

But anyway, when I read the ingredients and spotted MOS, I remembered this thread.

Thanks for all you do here.
 

shawneecatmom

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Sounds like Hope was in dangerous territory.  So very happy you found a solution that worked!
 
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carolina

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@ShawneeCatMom, yes, she was... Gosh, it's been a while! Glad to report everyone is still ok, and no one ever relapsed. They are still on a probiotic that contains Boulardii just in case, as a preventative, twice a day.
The crew is as healthy as ever.
As of today, because of my experience, others have used it too, successfully, for which I am glad.
Good to be here to give an update!
 

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How wonderful to know all are doing well!  Glad you could let us know.  Can you tell me where you get the probiotic you give?  Would appreciate the help.
 

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I thought I would update this post:
S. Boulardii May or MAY NOT work for Clostridium perfringes. The problem is that Clostridium species are constantly mutating and becoming more difficult to treat.

S. Boulardii is also claimed to work for C. Difficile colitis. The problem is, the new strain of C. Diff. now found in hospitals produces 50 times as much toxin. This super bacteria is nearly indestructable, as the antibiotics currently available cannot cure the infection once it becomes recurrent. Even S. Boulardii at high doses is not going to be enough to stop something this destructive. A fecal transplant is the ONLY cure once someone develops recurrent C. Diff.

There is certainly no harm in trying S. Boulardii, but be prepared in case it does not work. These bacteria are becoming more deadly, more widespread, and more resistant. There may come a point where S. Boulardii will no longer work.
 

kittyv23

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Hello! New member, came across this post. Just wanted to share my experience, My cat is suffering from Clostridium perfringens. Vet prescribed Tylosin, he took it for 2 weeks, no improvement. Stopped that, Vet prescribed Metronidazole. Been trying to pill pocket that and give it to him, been successful in having him take it 3 times this week. Don't see an improvement yet. I've been putting it in a pill pocket and wrapping it with chicken breast, but he's very smart and eats around it. Along with that, I changed his dry food to Hill's Prescription Diet I/D for digestive care. I don't want to give it to him, because it has corn in it and other ingredients I don't know about. I have been giving him Cooked plain chicken breast with rice, which he loves. I have been giving him Kefir(probiotic) that he loves, and I read is supposed to help, but hasn't as of yet. I bought Raw Rabbit bites from Nature's Variety that he doesn't like too much, I guess because I have to serve it cold straight from the freezer and can't leave it out for long. Cats love warm food so I can understand why he's not a fan. He's had this for over 2 months. First it started as a regular firm stool during the day and a loose stool after his wet food in the evening. Now it's 3-4 times a day, loose stool that ranges in color from light mustard yellow to pumpkin orange. Speaking of pumpkin, I gave him that for a few days with his chicken. I also ordered PetAlive RuniPoo drops that I started giving him, no improvement yet. I do want to feed him a raw diet, I just need to do more research on how to handle and prepare it properly, because I'm worried he will get more sick, if there are any bacteria or parasites. I love my boy, and I'll spend any $$ as long as he is better, but it's affecting me financially. If anyone can please provide me with the link to purchase the S. Boulardii, I guess I will try this next. I'm so worried that this will get worse, because I have tried so many things and nothing has worked yet. I don't want to feed him dry/wet cat food and I don't want to give him medication either. I just want him to be healthy :(
 

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It started towards the end the week of the 05/20, not sure what day.
One cat came down with severe diarrhea, then another, then all of them had it.

This wasn't just the seldom diarrhea they get when eating a different meat - this was water-like diarrhea, several times a day, with a lot of gas.
Diagel didn't work, doubling the probiotics, didn't work either.....
Hope was the one who got in worst shape. She was feeling pretty bad...... And when she feels bad her appetite is the first thing to go. She also hides and wants nothing to do with anyone.
Hope and Lucky had already gone to the vet, and when things didn't improve, I took Hope back on the 28th.
Since I couldn't get a sample of her poop, I got a fresh sample of Mac's poop and took it with me to get tested.

Dr. E said she felt really gassy....... Ordered a bunch of Diagel to give until the results of the PCR test was back, gave her a shot for nausea, and we came home after the exam - she hadn't lost weight, and had no fever (all the while I had her on an appetite stimulant, of course). He said he did not think that was Salmonella - he had never seen a case of Salmonella in cats from raw meat - only in dogs....... He mentioned Clostridium, but wanted to wait for the results to start treatment.

Came home and remembered a probiotic I had taken in Brazil..... It is called Saccharomices Boulardii. In there it is sold as a drug - it is incredibly effective against Clostridium Difficile, and it has been studied successfully against Clostridium perfringens as well. It just so happened that I had it at home as I searched here for my IBD, and after talking and researching it with Laurie (LDG), I decided to give it a try.

The dosage for cats is 250mg 2x a day, or translating for the on I had - 5 billion CFU, 1/2 capsule 2 x a day.

By this time Hope's diarrhea had reached an all time low - it was too often, green, completely liquid and smelling like ammonia - not good.

I gave them the first dose on the night of the 28th and hoped for the best.

Well, it worked! After only one dose, the very next morning Bugsy had solid poop, and Mac had Cow's pie poop. From the second dose on, all of them had solid poop. I also gave all of them 3 doses of diagel, every 12 hours.
Hope recovered her appetite and they are all doing well.

Meanwhile the results of the PRC test came back a few days later - Clostridium perfringens was confirmed, and the toxin was found.
Dr. E was not there, so they called me from the clinic saying they had the antibiotic ready to go, and for me to pick it up - I refused it (metronidazole). I let them know all of them were ok, and I was going to chat with Dr. E on Monday before doing anything.

On Monday, when he called he explained to me the results of the tests, the problems with Clostridium, and followed up on how they are doing. He already knew they were taking S. Boulardii - he was very happy they are all doing ok and no longer have diarrhea and agreed to forego the antibiotics. We will treat them with S. Boulardii for a month and re-test them.

They got Clostridium from a bad batch of Turkey I bought - I had a bad feeling about that meat, and should not bought it...... It was late at night and the last packages in the shelves. The packages were "sweaty" kind of wet....... As though they were left on a warm environment for a while...... I don't know if the refrigerator wasn't cold enough, or if someone got it and walked the store shopping around and put it back on the shelves.... 🇩🇰
But truth is, I should have followed my instincts :doh3: I have no doubt that' where it came from - it is most commonly found in poultry and decaying meat, but specially poultry that's starting to go bad.

Anyways - to wrap it up...... if anyone is interested, this is the brand I am using to treat them: Saccharomyces Boulardii
They HATE it, so I hide it inside the meat - I use the meat to make pill pockets, if you will. Chances are, a cat won't eat this easily..... But since this is used as medicine and Clostridium is no joke, I would say pill them if you must.

Since Clostridium can become chronic and has a high rate of recurrence, I am contemplating either finding a new probiotic with this strain in it, or mixing my own capsules with it. We will see - I think I want to keep them on it.

Well.... That's it..... Sorry I didn't open a thread before - I was posting on tammyp's clostridium page. :wavey:
Hi! I'm so pleased you solved the diarrhea! Thank you so much fur the link! Is the formula you use the one with added MOS? I don't know if that's ok for cats & would love to hear your answer if you get this! Thank you!
Tara
 
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